What did you like better: the earlier seasons of Buffy or the later seasons?

[GraceK]

Also @flow Ripping out the teeth of innocent people to literally make a profit of the gold is just about one of the most awful and sick things anyone could do...it's even more horrible than just keeping them as a personal trophy, cause your profiting off misery and death. So I really
Don't know what your point is.

 

[Bop]

It's not important to me what the coat means to Spike, the bottom line is it's not his coat, it's Nikki's coat. The woman he murdered.
Everyone has a go at Robin for wanting to kill Spike, but wouldn't you do the same if your mother's killer was walking around smug wearing your mother's coat. I know I would, no regrets.

 

[GraceK]

It's not important to me what the coat means to Spike, the bottom line is it's not his coat, it's Nikki's coat. The woman he murdered.
Everyone has a go at Robin for wanting to kill Spike, but wouldn't you do the same if your mother's killer was walking around smug wearing your mother's coat. I know I would, no regrets.

Seriously , fans are more upset that Robin had the audacity to try kill his mothers murderer because aww poor Spikey!!! That coat means so much to him!!! Barf.

 

[Bop]

Seriously , fans are more upset that Robin had the audacity to try kill his mothers murderer because aww poor Spikey!!! That coat means so much to him!!! Barf.

Exactly, I don't get how people can take Spike's side in this case😵

 

[Priceless]

That is both a bad-ass and heart-wrenching moment, when Buffy says she liked Spike better in School Hard.

She doesn't say she liked him better in School Hard, she just needs that version of him in S7 . . . by S11 she's very happy with the soulful version 😛
 

Are you serious? I didn't say that the Nazis kept the teeth as trophies...I said he's closer to A Nazi who kept the teeth as trophies...it's an Analogy for a reason.

Also, I'm sorry, but is ripping out the teeth with
Gold caps , just to keep the gold any better? I honestly don't know what your point is. I mean, why are you splitting hairs over what exactly Nazis did with the teeth of their victims???

Can I just add that equating a tv show about vampires with Nazi war atrocities just feels wrong, so can we change the analogy please

 

[GraceK]

She doesn't say she liked him better in School Hard, she just needs that version of him in S7 . . . by S11 she's very happy with the soulful version 😛
 


Can I just add that equating a tv show about vampires with Nazi war atrocities just feels wrong, so can we change the analogy please

Which is why I apologized in my original post about the analogy. I also only used that analogy to begin with because the person I was responding to compared Spike to a world war 2 allied soldier. I'm sorry if it disturbs you, but plenty of people are also disturbed by actions of specific characters.

 

[Bop]

She doesn't say she liked him better in School Hard, she just needs that version of him in S7 . . . by S11 she's very happy with the soulful version 😛
 


Can I just add that equating a tv show about vampires with Nazi war atrocities just feels wrong, so can we change the analogy please

I feel similarly disgusted at Spike keeping Nikki's coat as I do when I think about if a nazi did keep a Jewish person's tooth. Obviously as Spike's fictional I feel more disgusted at the nazi situation. But anyway, I think it was very sick for Spike to be walking around with, and even worse treasuring, Nikki's coat.

 

[flow]

You would know what my point ist, if you had ever visited a concentration camp. Your analogy isn`t disturbing it is just completely inappropiate. Please don`t trivialize the Holocaust by comparing it to a tv-show about vampires. One was reality, the other is fiction. One was the deadliest genocide in the history of mankind and the other is entertainement.

Just Change your analogy. Please.

flow

 

[GraceK]

You would know what my point ist, if you had ever visited a concentration camp. Your analogy isn`t disturbing it is just completely inappropiate. Please don`t trivialize the Holocaust by comparing it to a tv-show about vampires. One was reality, the other is fiction. One was the deadliest genocide in the history of mankind and the other is entertainement.

Just Change your analogy. Please.

flow

No, I'm not going to change my analogy. I already apologized in my original post, and like I said, it was for one specific response that specifically involved world war 2. Are you a rape victim? Cause maybe you should stop trying to defend Spikes actions, cause I personally find that inappropriate.

Also, nothing on my post trivialized the Holocaust. Your post did that by trying to split hairs over what Nazis did.

Also,@flow get off your high horse. Angel the series specially showcased an episode having to do with Nazis, and demons, and Spike. So the creators clearly didn't consider it trivializing the Holocaust.

 

[flow]

Ah, I see, if you say you apologize for something inappropiate you can go ahead and do it.

flow

 

[GraceK]

Ah, I see, if you say you apologize for something inappropiate you can go ahead and do it.

flow

It was already done when I apologized . The post was written yesterday., and most of us have moved on already. Maybe you should try that too.

 

[Guy]

Oh come on the main use for her powers was to kill people, the girl was given the power to teleport so that she could travel long distances to kill people. She was also given her immortality and invulnerability so that she could forever kill people. She missed that, I don't think even the biggest Anya fan could deny it.

I do appreciate what Anya did in selfless, and she definitely made progress but as I said it was way too little, way too late for me. I'm finding it hard to look past her behaviour in seasons 3- 6 which I don't think anyone can justify. I get that Anya was wronged by her husband but how petty is that for a reason to become a mass murderer? Then again in season 6, I really did feel for her when she was dumped at the altar but again that reason is too petty to become a mass murderer again! I don't know, I really just can't gather up much sympathy for Anya after all that. I don't see a redeemed person in Anya, because I never saw a redemption arc, selfless was her redemption moment and the beginning of her redemption arc. 'Selfless' was Anya's 'Five by Five' but that's only the begining of her redemption arc. Faith was not redeemed in 'Five by Five' and Anya was not redeemed in 'Selfless'. To me anyway.

So, when was Faith redeemed in your eyes, exactly? And why?
 

Seriously , fans are more upset that Robin had the audacity to try kill his mothers murderer because aww poor Spikey!!! That coat means so much to him!!! Barf.

Yeah, because Spike was not guilty for Nikki's death. He was soulless at the time, ergo not his fault. It's like when (SPOILERS for 'Captain America: Civil War') Tony Stark tries to kill Bucky for murdering his parents, even though Bucky was brainwashed when he murdered them - Tony's decision is understandable, but it's absolutely wrong. It's like when Holtz tried to take revenge on Angel in season 3 - Holtz's decision was understandable, but still very wrong.

 

[Bop]

@Guy
It's a tough thing to determine when Faith was redeemed but I'd say it was when she came out of prison to help Angel. Just the fact that she went to prison showed that she was willing to suffer for what she did, which means she's truly sorry for what she did, and thinks that she deserves to be punished for it. Faith was definitely not redeemed in 'Five by Five' because she had not paid for what she did. Not that going to prison makes up for what she did, because it didn't, nothing will. But she at least showed that she knew what she did was wrong, and suffered for it.
Angel didn't let her take the easy way out (death) and that's the reason he gives for not killing her. To be redeemed you have to live with the guilt and pain of what you did and suffer for it.

I just think that it's disgusting that Spike kept the coat, and to me it shows that he clearly doesn't feel any guilt over killing Nikki. Robin had the right to his mother's coat because it's hers, why should it be worn and treasured on the same body that killed her? I think that Robin was extremely understanding to be able to be around Spike wearing his dead mother's coat and to not go back after him. Spike disrespected Robin, Nikki but more importantly his quest for redemption when he continued to wear that coat.

 

[GraceK]

@Guy basically What @Athene said.

I just feel that on a personal level, that whole scene was distasteful. Wood was no match for Spike once his trigger was under control. There was no reason to beat almost to death while taunting him about his mother. Then he acts like he has the moral high ground by NOT killing him , and threatens to do it next time.

It's gross to me, because whether Spike can be considered responsible or not for Nikki's death, it would have worked better if Spike at least
Showed some kind of compassion and understanding for how Wood feels, especially being so close to his own mom. It just comes across as callous IMO and doesn't seem very soul like. 🙂 but this is obviously just personal preference, for you the scene worked fine.

It just needles me that Souled Spike never seems at all remorseful for anything, not until Damaged anyway.I mean, it's probably better for his mental health, but I personally would have liked to see some guilt. 🙂

 

[Bop]

BUFFY (cont'd)
(whispered)
Oh my god...

SPIKE
I gave him a pass. Let him live. On
account of the face that I killed his
mother.

She looks at him, begins to figure it out.



SPIKE (cont'd)
But that's all he gets.
He turns, begins to walk away.



SPIKE (cont'd)
He so much as looks at me funny
again... I'll kill him.

Also what is this?
This means that Spike was willing to kill Robin, a human, despite the fact that he has a soul and is not under anybody's control.
Spike is not likeable in this whole episode, he's not compassionate and shows no guilt over killing Nikki. He did kill Nikki, okay he didn't have a soul then but he still killed her. Would it have been that hard for him to show a bit of compassion and give Robin his mother's coat back? I just don't understand because clearly the writers wanted me to side with Spike, but what I saw didn't correlate with that.

 

[Guy]

@Guy
It's a tough thing to determine when Faith was redeemed but I'd say it was when she came out of prison to help Angel. Just the fact that she went to prison showed that she was willing to suffer for what she did, which means she's truly sorry for what she did, and thinks that she deserves to be punished for it. Faith was definitely not redeemed in 'Five by Five' because she had not paid for what she did. Not that going to prison makes up for what she did, because it didn't, nothing will. But she at least showed that she knew what she did was wrong, and suffered for it.
Angel didn't let her take the easy way out (death) and that's the reason he gives for not killing her. To be redeemed you have to live with the guilt and pain of what you did and suffer for it.

"she at least showed that she knew what she did was wrong, and suffered for it." See, I think that the same is true of Anya in 'Selfless'. She knew that what she did was wrong, and she tried to get D'Hoffryn to undo it, and was willing to pay with her life for it. And like Faith, she was not allowed to take the easy way out. Instead, she had to live as a human with the memory of her past. So, by the logic you present here, Anya's redemption happened in 'Selfless'.

I also think that suffering for one's sins is completely pointless and does NOT make someone a better person, but I'm trying to work with YOUR definition of redemption here.

I just think that it's disgusting that Spike kept the coat, and to me it shows that he clearly doesn't feel any guilt over killing Nikki. Robin had the right to his mother's coat because it's hers, why should it be worn and treasured on the same body that killed her? I think that Robin was extremely understanding to be able to be around Spike wearing his dead mother's coat and to not go back after him. Spike disrespected Robin, Nikki but more importantly his quest for redemption when he continued to wear that coat.

- Spike SHOULDN'T feel any guilt for Nikki's death, because again - it wasn't his fault.
- Yeah, Robin should have gotten the coat. And if he just came to Spike like a reasonable human being, told his story, and asked for the coat, I'm sure that Spike would have given it - and would have been very sympathetic toward him, too. But once Robin went all Punisher on Spike, he completely lost the moral high ground. Which is probably why he didn't ask for the coat again after it.
- Robin wasn't "extremely understanding" to not go after Spike again, he was just finally acting like a reasonable person.
- Again, I don't see what "redemption" Spike has to seek for Nikki's death. But we'll probably never agree on that...

@Guy basically What @Athene said.

I just feel that on a personal level, that whole scene was distasteful. Wood was no match for Spike once his trigger was under control. There was no reason to beat almost to death while taunting him about his mother. Then he acts like he has the moral high ground by NOT killing him , and threatens to do it next time.

It's gross to me, because whether Spike can be considered responsible or not for Nikki's death, it would have worked better if Spike at least
Showed some kind of compassion and understanding for how Wood feels, especially being so close to his own mom. It just comes across as callous IMO and doesn't seem very soul like. 🙂 but this is obviously just personal preference, for you the scene worked fine.

It just needles me that Souled Spike never seems at all remorseful for anything, not until Damaged anyway.I mean, it's probably better for his mental health, but I personally would have liked to see some guilt. 🙂

Honestly, I think that my frustration with Angel's catholic guilt is part of the reason why that scene is so cathartic for me. Angel spent literally dozens of episodes droning on and on about how he wants "forgiveness", about how he must seek redemption for his deeds as Angelus, and whenever he does that, I just want to shout at the screen "It's not even your fault, you sanctimonious, self-flogging idiot! Stop being all melodramatic about all of the horrible things that you DIDN'T choose to do! Ugh!" It always bothered the hell out of me. So, when Spike rightfully refused to take any of Robin's revenge crap, and said that "I don't give a piss about your mom", I was like "YES! THANK YOU! FINALLY SOMEONE HERE IS NOT AN IDIOT!"

knowyourmeme.com/photos/856141-reaction-images

It was SO satisfying!🙂

And of course, then came 'Damage', which completely ruined Spike's reasonable perspective about the ensouled guilt, and drove me INSANE, but that's a different story...

 

[Bop]

"she at least showed that she knew what she did was wrong, and suffered for it." See, I think that the same is true of Anya in 'Selfless'. She knew that what she did was wrong, and she tried to get D'Hoffryn to undo it, and was willing to pay with her life for it. And like Faith, she was not allowed to take the easy way out. Instead, she had to live as a human with the memory of her past. So, by the logic you present here, Anya's redemption happened in 'Selfless'.

I also think that suffering for one's sins is completely pointless and does NOT make someone a better person, but I'm trying to work with YOUR definition of redemption here.



- Spike SHOULDN'T feel any guilt for Nikki's death, because again - it wasn't his fault.
- Yeah, Robin probably should have gotten the coat. And if he just came to Spike like a reasonable human being, told his story, and asked for the coat, I'm sure that Spike would have given it - and would have been very sympathetic toward him, too. But once Robin went all Punisher on Spike, he completely lost the moral high ground. Which is probably why he didn't ask for the coat again after it.
- Robin wasn't "extremely understanding" to not go after Spike again, he was just finally acting like a reasonable person.
- Again, I don't see what "redemption" Spike has to seek for Nikki's death. But we'll probably never agree on that...



Honestly, I think that my frustration with Angel's catholic guilt is part of the reason why that scene is so cathartic for me. Angel spent literally dozens of episodes droning on and on about how he wants "forgiveness", about how he must seek redemption for his deeds as Angelus, and whenever he does that, I just want to shout at the screen "It's not even your fault, you sanctimonious, self-flogging idiot! Stop being all melodramatic about all of the horrible things that you DIDN'T choose to do! Ugh!" It always bothered the hell out of me. So, when Spike rightfully refused to take any of Robin's revenge crap, and said that "I don't give a piss about your mom", I was like "YES! THANK YOU! FINALLY SOMEONE HERE IS NOT AN IDIOT!"

knowyourmeme.com/photos/856141-reaction-images

It was SO satisfying!🙂

And of course, then came 'Damage', which completely ruined Spike's reasonable perspective about the ensouled guilt, and drove me INSANE, but that's a different story...

But death isn't a punishment, that's the easy way out. If Anya had given her life for the students that's not Anya suffering at all. Therefore she wouldn't have been redeemed.

With the Spike thing, he still killed Nikki, I realise that he didn't have a souls but he still killed her. Spike clearly didn't have any guilt for killing Nikki, or he would have seen how wrong it was to continue wearing her coat. It's just wrong.

 

[Mr Trick]

Probably the early. Though S1 is still the weakest for me. And I really like 2,3,4 and 5.

 

[GraceK]

@Guy i see a lot of your points. On the one hand, it is refreshing on some level to have a character who takes a much more pragmatic view and doesn't wallow in self loathing. It may be forgotten in all these posts, but I am Spike fan for a reason after all 🙂

But what doesn't make sense to me is that if Spike is not at all responsible for Nikki's death, if it wasn't his fault at all, then why does the coat have so much meaning to him? He should look at it then as a reminder of someone else's bad deed, a BAD memory of murder, not as a source of identity and pride. The fact that Spike holds so much significance for that coat and that so much of his worth and identity are wrapped up in Nikkis coat, tells me that Spike not only considers himself responsible for her death, he glories in the memory of it. You can't have it both ways . Either he is responsible and should feel guilty, or he's not and shouldn't want the coat IMO

 

[Guy]

But death isn't a punishment, that's the easy way out. If Anya had given her life for the students that's not Anya suffering at all. Therefore she wouldn't have been redeemed.

But she DIDN'T die. And she had to continue living with the memory of her guilt. Just like Faith in 'Orpheus'. 'Selfless' doesn't end with Anya's sacrifice - it ends with Anya walking out, alone, crying, with nothing but the memory of all the horrible things she did.

Also, I think you're really overestimating how "easy" death is. I mean, I get that life is harder in the long run, but death is still terrifying as hell, and Anya's willingness to die in 'Selfless' for the frat-boys is not an "easy" decision.

With the Spike thing, he stilled killed Nikki, I realise that he didn't have a souls but he still killed her. Spike clearly didn't have any guilt for killing Nikki, or he would have seen how wrong it was to continue wearing her coat. It's just wrong.

But he SHOULDN'T have guilt for it. You're essentially blaming Spike for NOT being a psychological mess.
See, that's why I was SO frustrated with Angel - I constantly wanted to go inside my television screen and tell him:

And here comes Spike, who actually GETS IT, and you're blaming him for that? That's... I just don't get that.