What did you like better: the earlier seasons of Buffy or the later seasons?

[Mr Trick]

I think part of the reason Spike holds on to the coat is to remind himself of what he used to be, so he doesn't make those mistakes again. Its symbolic in that sense I think.

 

[Bop]

But she DIDN'T die. And she had to continue living with the memory of her guilt. Just like Faith in 'Orpheus'. 'Selfless' doesn't end with Anya's sacrifice - it ends with Anya walking out, alone, crying, with nothing but the memory of all the horrible things she did.

Also, I think you're really overestimating how "easy" death is. I mean, I get that life is harder in the long run, but death is still terrifying as hell, and Anya's willingness to die in 'Selfless' for the frat-boys is not an "easy" decision.



But he SHOULDN'T have guilt for it. You're essentially blaming Spike for NOT being a psychological mess.
See, that's why I was SO frustrated with Angel - I constantly wanted to go inside my television screen and tell him:

And here comes Spike, who actually GETS IT, and you're blaming him for that? That's... I just don't get that.

Anya should have died hundreds of years ago if she hadn't been selfish and became a killer. The fact is that I don't see any suffering in Anya for the rest of season 7, she's her normal funny self. Where's the change? Where's the guilt and suffering? It's all gone after selfless and even though it's certainly a step in the right direction, I don't value her offer to die very much in terms of redemption. It's just not believable to me that she is genuinely being tormented by her guilt, I see no proof of that after Selfless. Therefore, she was never really punished for her crimes. Therefore I can't call her redeemed anymore than I'd call Faith redeemed in 'Five by Five'.

Well Spike was not being compassionate or acting like a guy with a soul with his behaviour towards Robin. Keeping the coat was just the tip of the iceberg, he says he'd have killed Robin right there and then if he hadn't killed Nikki. That's not how a redeemed (good) person behaves in my book.

 

[Guy]

@Guy i see a lot of your points. On the one hand, it is refreshing on some level to have a character who takes a much more pragmatic view and doesn't wallow in self loathing. It may be forgotten in all these posts, but I am Spike fan for a reason after all 🙂

But what doesn't make sense to me is that if Spike is not at all responsible for Nikki's death, if it wasn't his fault at all, then why does the coat have so much meaning to him? He should look at it then as a reminder of someone else's bad deed, a BAD memory of murder, not as a source of identity and pride. The fact that Spike holds so much significance for that coat and that so much of his worth and identity are wrapped up in Nikkis coat, tells me that Spike not only considers himself responsible for her death, he glories in the memory of it.

See, I actually don't like the fact that Spike starts wearing the coat again. I think that the justification for it in 'Get it Done' was weak. I mean, I get that it looks cool, but Spike's arc didn't really need it.

That said, I don't think that it's a notable problem, either. The justification for it was that Spike used it as a sort of "red cloth", like a bull, to goad him, to make him reconnect to his inner monster when he needed to, to be a better fighter. And that's something that I can appreciate - Spike doesn't see the coat as something good, he just sees it as something that's part of him, that he can use FOR a good purpose. And I don't mind that.

And in 'The Girl In Question' he seems too fond of the coat, but honestly TGIQ just exaggerates both Angel and Spike's personalities for the sake of comedy (with GLORIOUS results, IMO🙂), so I don't read too much into it.
 

Anya should have died hundreds of years ago if she hadn't been selfish and became a killer. The fact is that I don't see any suffering in Anya for the rest of season 7, she's her normal funny self. Where's the change? Where's the guilt and suffering? It's all gone after selfless and even though it's certainly a step in the right direction, I don't value her offer to die very much in terms of redemption. It's just not believable to me that she is genuinely being tormented by her guilt, I see no proof of that after Selfless. Therefore, she was never really punished for her crimes. Therefore I can't call her redeemed anymore than I'd call Faith redeemed in 'Five by Five'.

I actually would have liked more serious exploration of Anya post-'Selfless' too. It's a shame that she was relegated to comic-relief after that episode. That said, I don't think that this lack of further exploration takes away from the greatness and completion of 'Selfless'. Honestly, if we never saw Anya again after that episode, I would have considered it to be a perfect endings for her character - everything that needed to be said was said, everything that needed to be done was done. Unlike 'Five by Five', 'Selfless' required no follow-up.

And of course, since my definition of redemption is completely different, I didn't need anything more after 'Selfless' to be able to say that Anya was redeemed. The whole self-flogging thing never seemed necessary to me...

Well Spike was not being compassionate or acting like a guy with a soul with his behaviour towards Robin. Keeping the coat was just the tip of the iceberg, he says he'd have killed Robin right there and then if he hadn't killed Nikki. That's not how a redeemed (good) person behaves in my book.

I saw the "I only let him live on account of his mother" and "I'll kill him if he looks at me funny again" thing as just a threat, to convince Robin not to try anything again. Which is perfectly reasonable - if a guy tried to kill me, I'd also want to make damn sure that he wouldn't try it again.
And let's agree to disagree about the rest, this HAS been going in circles for a while now...

 

[Bop]

See, I actually don't like the fact that Spike starts wearing the coat again. I think that the justification for it in 'Get it Done' was weak. I mean, I get that it looks cool, but Spike's arc didn't really need it.

That said, I don't think that it's a notable problem, either. The justification for it was that Spike used it as a sort of "red cloth", like a bull, to goad him, to make him reconnect to his inner monster when he needed to, to be a better fighter. And that's something that I can appreciate - Spike doesn't see the coat as something good, he just sees it as something that's part of him, that he can use FOR a good purpose. And I don't mind that.

And in 'The Girl In Question' he seems too fond of the coat, but honestly TGIQ just exaggerates both Angel and Spike's personalities for the sake of comedy (with GLORIOUS results, IMO🙂), so I don't read too much into it.
 


I actually would have liked more serious exploration of Anya post-'Selfless' too. It's a shame that she was relegated to comic-relief after that episode. That said, I don't think that this lack of further exploration takes away from the greatness and completion of 'Selfless'. Honestly, if we never saw Anya again after that episode, I would have considered it to be a perfect endings for her character - everything that needed to be said was said, everything that needed to be done was done. Unlike 'Five by Five', 'Selfless' required no follow-up.

And of course, since my definition of redemption is completely different, I didn't need anything more after 'Selfless' to be able to say that Anya was redeemed. The whole self-flogging thing never seemed necessary to me...



I saw the "I only let him live on account of his mother" and "I'll kill him if he looks at me funny again" thing as just a threat, to convince Robin not to try anything again. Which is perfectly reasonable - if a guy tried to kill me, I'd also want to make damn sure that he wouldn't try it again.
And let's agree to disagree about the rest, this HAS been going in circles for a while now...

Fair enough 🙂

 

[Stoney]

He doesn't glory in the memory of it, I don't think that is fair because he was choosing to not wear it when he first became souled. It was only the push to reconnect with a harder, tougher, more brutal side of his past in order to be more useful for the greater good that made him put aside the wish to not wear a connection to that past any more. As I said before, I think the mirroring is intentional to both Buffy and Nikki herself talking about putting the mission first in Spike's choice to retrieve/wear the coat. I do understand why some fans are uncomfortable with it and dislike the connection it has and him choosing to use it, but saying that Spike had no issue with wearing the coat is just not true, he had abandoned it and it was a significant plot point when he put it back on. And yes, I know what he said in TGIQ about it, but as I said before we know from early S7 how he felt about wearing it and why he put it on again. He is never going to tell Angel that he fears becoming weak and useless in the fight without that sense of connection. Not a chance. It wasn't because it looked cool or because he didn't understand what it was and felt no remorse, it was because of its connection to murder that he didn't want to wear it and 'relish' in the violence any longer in the first place and then that connection is why he then used it to gain an edge in the fight again. It isn't a strength to have such issues with image and his own emotional weaknesses that he needs it and can use it, but it is consistent with the character who determinedly built an image to hide aspects of himself from view and who struggles with his own and other's perceptions of him so much.

I also personally think that Spike does show remorse and upset over the crimes that he remembers committing. Not just the open horror when he sees the memories of the people he killed without his knowledge once souled but he is broken up when talking to Buffy about the things he did and how he feels connected to his past in Never Leave Me. Spike is very insecure and keeps a lot of his fears about his own weaknesses bottled up and it would be very OOC for him to openly grieve and discuss how he feels about his past but very in character to brush it off and try to avoid it. We see some of it exposed to Buffy and some with Angel because they are people that he is close to or feels a sense of deeper connection with (reluctantly or not!). Often with Angel their competitive issues proves a barrier for them both in supporting each other as well as they perhaps could. And I do think that Spike's choice to fight is clearly reflective of his desire to do good. Like I say, it isn't great that he tries to not face a lot of his past (and that was exactly why The First was able to set the trigger in a suppressed memory), but he does look forwards to what he can do in the current/future and his actions are very driven by his want to help and his willingness to put himself on the line to do so.
 
I don't agree @Guy that Spike and Angel should feel completely disconnected from their pasts. Sure, yes, I do think that there is a limitation to their literal responsibility because souled they wouldn't commit the same acts, the same crimes, or feel the same responses in doing so once they are souled and have full breadth/depth of emotions. But there is a link within them, in the motivations that drive them from their original personalities and there is also still the demon that drove the desire to kill and thirst for blood as a part of who they are when souled, it is another side to themselves that they are having to deal with still. It is complicated for sure, as they are distinctly different to who they were unsouled, there is a distinct separation, but it isn't a complete separation on every level and that they feel a tie back isn't illogical to me. It makes as much sense as the links that they feel to their original human selves once they are made vampires too. There is some continuity throughout.

 

[Guy]

I don't agree @Guy that Spike and Angel should feel completely disconnected from their pasts. Sure, yes, I do think that there is a limitation to their literal responsibility because souled they wouldn't commit the same acts, the same crimes, or feel the same responses in doing so once they are souled and have full breadth/depth of emotions. But there is a link within them, in the motivations that drive them within from their original personalities and there is also still the demon that drove the desire to kill and thirst for blood as a part of who they are when souled, it is another side to themselves that they are having to deal with. It is complicated for sure, as they are distinctly different to who they were unsouled, there is a distinct separation, but it isn't a complete separation on every level and that they feel a tie back isn't illogical to me. It makes as much sense as the links that they feel to their original human selves once they are made vampires too. There is some continuity throughout.

I agree partially. There SHOULD be some connection there, but I think that it shouldn't come in the form of "I'm guilty for what I did when I was soulless, and I must atone for those sins". That perspective is just WAY too illogical for me to tolerate for more than a few episodes.

I think that the best approach would be to treat it in the way 'Jessica Jones' treats Jessica's guilt over the crimes she was forced to commit:

Logically, Jessica KNOWS that she's not guilty for what Kilgrave made her do, and she has ZERO problem telling as much to other victims of Kilgrave. But emotionally, Jessica FEELS guilty for the things that Kilgrave made her do, and those things haunt her. THAT I can appreciate - it's a psychological problem, not a logical one. And the contrast between emotion and reason is dramatically compelling.
I wish that that was how Angel and Spike saw their soulless past.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think part of the reason Spike still had the coat is because it became an iconic look for the character, just the same as the peroxide hair. In season 2, I don't think the elaborate backstory for the coat had been thought up yet, it was just a coat. In season 5, the coat was linked to Nikki Wood as a slayer. In season 7, Wood and Spike were basically fighting over the coat. The writers couldn't get rid oft he coat so they gave it a backstory. In TGIQ, the coat gets destroyed and Spike is immediately given an exact replica. Essentially what happens is Spike still gets to keep the coat, but its backstory is taken away so its no longer a trophy, it goes back to being just a coat.

I don't hold Spike killing Nikki against him nor his threat to kill Robin. Nikki was a slayer, a by the book one too from what little we've seen, her job was to kill vampires which is what Spike was. In a fight like that, only one walks away alive. Spike just made sure it was him. Also, why wouldn't he take a trophy to prove that he killed a killer of his kind? We've seen Buffy kill vampires as soon as they pop up out their graves. They've not killed anyone, most of them didn't ask to become a vampire, yet Buffy kills them just because they're vampires. Why should Spike feel guilty for killing someone who was going to kill him? Likewise, why should Buffy feel guilty for killing newly risen vampires? The answer is they shouldn't, it's just the way of their lives. Slayer kills vampire, vampire kills slayer.

Similar situation with Wood. Wood was trying to kill Spike over point 1. Spike COULD'VE killed him but he didn't, on account of the soul and that Nikki was Wood's mother. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that Spike has to put up with repeated murder attempts from Wood. He gave Wood a warning to back off, if Wood didn't heed that then Spike would have no hesitation killing him to remove the threat to himself. Fortunately for Wood, he heeded the warning.

 

[S Rou]

Exactly, I don't get how people can take Spike's side in this case😵

I honestly think Spike looks cooler without the coat. Maybe that's just me :/

How he looked when he killed her in the subway was pretty badass.
 

She did not do what Faith did, Anya killed thousands of people, Anya joked about her crimes, Anya was never punished for her crimes, Anya went back to killing. Those are the differences and that's why she never had a redemption arc.

Was faith really punsihed for her crimes? Yeah she spent some time in prison (not long at all though) and felt tremendous guilt.

 

[Bop]

I honestly think Spike looks cooler without the coat. Maybe that's just me :/

How he looked when he killed her in the subway was pretty badass.
 

Was faith really punsihed for her crimes? Yeah she spent some time in prison (not long at all though) and felt tremendous guilt.

Spike did look cool in the coat but once I'd learnt the history of the coat, it seemed so distasteful for Spike to continue to wear it, for Buffy to snuggle up to it whenever she'd be with Spike. That is somebody's dead mothers' coat, and Spike was basically spitting on it. It didn't sit well with me.
Well I don't know about anyone else, but I considered prison an adequate punishment for Faith, at least she took some form of punishment unlike others.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@Guy But what doesn't make sense to me is that if Spike is not at all responsible for Nikki's death, if it wasn't his fault at all, then why does the coat have so much meaning to him?

Because killing is the only thing he has ever been good at. It earned him the love of Dru, it made him useful to Buffy. The coat represents his entire identity.
 

Well Spike was not being compassionate or acting like a guy with a soul with his behaviour towards Robin. Keeping the coat was just the tip of the iceberg, he says he'd have killed Robin right there and then if he hadn't killed Nikki. That's not how a redeemed (good) person behaves in my book.

To be fair, Spike breaks out of his delirium just in time to save himself from being tortured to death. I guess he figures they are even. They both lost their mum and it made them into viscous killers.

 

[Bop]

Because killing is the only thing he has ever been good at. It earned him the love of Dru, it made him useful to Buffy. The coat represents his entire identity.
 

To be fair, Spike breaks out of his delirium just in time to save himself from being tortured to death. I guess he figures they are even. They both lost their mum and it made them into viscous killers.

Yeah but Robin is only trying to kill Spike because Spike killed his mom, I have no doubt at all that if Joyce had been murdered, Buffy would stop at nothing to kill whoever killed her. Same with Spike, or nearly everyone. It's just human nature, it's not the right thing to do but I can see where Robin's coming from. I don't see where Spike's coming from, I mean he had every reason to fight in defence of himself but then to keep the coat and tell Robin his mom didn't love him, and that he'll kill him if he looks at him funny. It seemed cold and I don't get what the writers were trying to do with Spike in this episode.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Yeah but Robin is only trying to kill Spike because Spike killed his mom, I have no doubt at all that if Joyce had been murdered, Buffy would stop at nothing to kill whoever killed her. Same with Spike, or nearly everyone. It's just human nature, it's not the right thing to do but I can see where Robin's coming from. I don't see where Spike's coming from, I mean he had every reason to fight in defence of himself but then to keep the coat and tell Robin his mom didn't love him, and that he'll kill him if he looks at him funny. It seemed cold and I don't get what the writers were trying to do with Spike in this episode.

What Robin is doing goes way beyond vigilante justice. Spike wakes up in a Fritzel-basement. He does not see Robin as an innocent. Spike was a decent enough man before Dru came along and made him a killer. Then Spike did the same to Robin. Now Spike sees Robin and himself as basically the same. He doesn't think Robin's life is sader than his own.

 

[GraceK]

They both lost their mum and it made them into viscous killers.

Spike didn't lose his mom. Spike KILLED his mother and made her a vampire. Then killed her again cause she turned vicious and tried to shag him. There's a big difference what happened with Spike and his mum and Robin and his mother.

Honestly I agree that Spike had every right to defend himself. And although I can't blame Robin for doing what he did, I didn't like the underhanded way he did it. But the fact remains that Spike, soulless, killed his mother and it just rubs me the wrong way that he gets to look like the victim and the hero in this situation. The whole episode is designed to make you be on Spikes side and I personally don't agree with it. I'm with @Athene here, I don't get what exactly they were going for and why the heck they made Bufffy so completely repulsive at the end. Hell the whole episode pisses me off for what it did to Giles as well..2 people who I have grown to love over 7 years (Giles and Buffy) are completely unrecognizable and I don't even like them anymore.

I'm annoyed too because I feel manipulated by the writers to feel bad for Spike and dislike Wood. Could they have made Wood any more unlikable???? Ugh.

 

[Bop]

What Robin is doing goes way beyond vigilante justice. Spike wakes up in a Fritzel-basement. He does not see Robin as an innocent. Spike was a decent enough man before Dru came along and made him a killer. Then Spike did the same to Robin. Now Spike sees Robin and himself as basically the same. He doesn't think Robin's life is sader than his own.

But it's what Spike did that made Robin attempt to kill him. So it's more similar to if Spike wanted to kill Drusilla because Drusilla wronged him. Spike wronged Robin, and that's why he wanted to kill him. Obviously I don't mind that Spike fought back, it's the fact that he kept Nikki's coat, appointed himself as the gospel of Nikki when he told Robin that she didn't love him...what makes Spike think he knew what Nikki loved? Then Spike threatens to kill Robin for a bad look at the end of the episode. It rubs me the wrong way.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But it's what Spike did that made Robin attempt to kill him. So it's more similar to if Spike wanted to kill Drusilla because Drusilla wronged him. Spike wronged Robin, and that's why he wanted to kill him.

Yes, but by taking the route of an eye for an eye, Robin is no longer an innocent little boy. Spike feels justified in killing him, though chooses not to. Robin is clearly a much better person than Spike, but there I think there is some sense to Spike's logic. Those that live by the sword can expect to die by it.

Obviously I don't mind that Spike fought back, it's the fact that he kept Nikki's coat, appointed himself as the gospel of Nikki when he told Robin that she didn't love him...what makes Spike think he knew what Nikki loved? Then Spike threatens to kill Robin for a bad look at the end of the episode. It rubs me the wrong way.

I think Spike is talking about his own relationship with his mother. Spike's subconscious has been trying to figure out whether his vampire mother's words were true. Spike wants to be loved completely. He does not like to share. I guess he finds it hard to believe a mother could both love her son and have a career 😛

 

[Fool for Buffy]

What Robin is doing goes way beyond vigilante justice. Spike wakes up in a Fritzel-basement. He does not see Robin as an innocent. Spike was a decent enough man before Dru came along and made him a killer. Then Spike did the same to Robin. Now Spike sees Robin and himself as basically the same. He doesn't think Robin's life is sader than his own.

Honestly I don't think Robin trying to kill Spike is beyond vigilante justice. He is ignorant in that he has no idea that the victim of his attack is good now, but his motives are understandable. What is not understandable is Giles betraying Buffy by trying to distract her from the attempted murder of Spike. Giles had no history with Spike and he had proven value multiple times to him. And by that point Buffy was clearly in charge, so Giles had no right to try and keep her away.

 

[thrasherpix]

Though I find Buffy's actions regarding Spike with a trigger also nonsensical and wildly irresponsible, and not something Buffy of earlier seasons would've done. Giles didn't act until Buffy refuses to even bind Spike...something Buffy could only get away with because of plot armor granted by terrible writing.

 

[Slayerofslayers]

I prefer the early seasons as seasons two and three are my favorite seasons. However, Season five is my third favorite season and there is some stuff in season six that I really enjoy. The feel of seasons one, two, three, and five was the show at its best in my opinion. Those are the seasons that I enjoyed the characters and the plot lines and villains the most.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Well, if the dividing line is the end of S4, then I would say I prefer early Buffy. That being said, S5 is my preferred season overall. It really strikes multiple harmonious chords in me. Here isn't the place to list my litany of reasons. But I'll say that S6 is frustrating, because of the wasted potential, and S7 is my choice for a complete rewrite on all levels. So S5's company just isn't very stellar. S2 is flawed but memorable in its own way.

 

[Fuffy]

The earlier seasons, back when Buffy and Willow were actually somewhat likeable...