What does it mean?

[gite63]

What does it mean?

A look, an hesitation, a word that you don't quite know the meaning or purpose of it, what the writers were trying to say...

The Gift

When Buffy and Spike go to her house to pick up weapons, Spike can't enter because his invitation was canceled. So, he stands still in front of the door, and for a split second Buffy looks at him - puzzled? Has she forgotten that his invitation was taken back ? Or has she forgotten that he is a vampire? This split second would be related to what Spike says next: “You treat me like a man”?

I know that her mind at that moment was elsewhere etc; but she does seem puzzled.

 

[Wildfly]

she seems awfully negligent about de-inviting spike in the first place after season 2.
True, he said (with feeling) that he hopes they'll never met again, but still i think she should have cancelled that one, but i think that invitation stands till Crush.

here i think she completely forgot she switched the keys on him because now he is fighting with them.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy sure as shit should've de-invited Spike from her house between Seasons 6 and 7. But then maybe she thought he wouldn't have the nerve to come back.

 

[white avenger]

I think at that point in Season 5 that Buffy had forgotten all about why Spike had been dis-invited in the first place, and seeing him unable to come in took her a minute to figure out. Nothing any more complicated than that.

 

[thetopher]

I always thought, what with the looming apocalypse, a hugely powerful hellgod, and her sister's life at stake, Buffy had more important things on her mind.

Then Spike can't get past the threshold, Buffy remembers why he can't get in and all the events that have happened since then. And then she invites him in and asks him to protect her sister because (after 'Intervention') she knows that Spike would try his best.
It's a wonderfully understated scene.

 

[Wildfly]

But there was this moment when she first called him 'William'.
True, she said "I've no time for this, William." And it came after that trademark 'hello, Spike' punch of hers. 🙄 But still. She called him by his human name! 😀 And she really had no time what with suspicious and temporarily creeepy Dawn in the house.

I wonder what was that.
And Spike was surprised, too... ^^

 

[Skanky Vamp]

she said "I've no time for this, William."

That was meant to belittle him and put him his place since he just insulted her.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, Spike is who he is now, William is waht he's hiding from. Therefore its not a compliment, in this context.

 

[Wildfly]

That was meant to belittle him and put him his place since he just insulted her.

Yeah, Spike is who he is now, William is waht he's hiding from. Therefore its not a compliment, in this context.

How does she know it demeans him? No Place Like Home was before Fool for Love. Also i am not sure he told her about William the bloody awful poet. I think those flashbacks were for the viewers.


Also second time she uses it ('i am sorry, william') it's used very gently.

 

[thetopher]

How does she know it demeans him? No Place Like Home was before Fool for Love Also i am not sure he told her about William the bloody awful poet. I think those flashbacks were for the viewers.

Well I agree that Buffy never knew about William's specific origins (the unreliable narrator trope in 'Fool For Love') but Buffy almost certainly thought that a vampire changes their name to get away from their human origins. Most vampires of note do this- Darla, Angelus, The Master, and so forth.
She knew Spike's real name, so she used it as a way to demean him.

 

[Wildfly]

But that's it. The blue smurf said there are vamps who stink of humanity whom he can kill. And Spike unlike the master and Angelus often behaves like a human. He eats, he likes Manchester United and so on. I think it can be confusing to Buffy who used to different vamp behaviour.

And here Spike behaves like a schoolboy in love, really awkward and funny, not, i dunno, blodsucker-like and Buffy's response, i think, is less to a vamp more an adult's response to an annoying teenager. Almost can hear buffy using the same tone with Dawn.

 

[gite63]

How does she know it demeans him? No Place Like Home was before Fool for Love. Also i am not sure he told her about William the bloody awful poet. I think those flashbacks were for the viewers.

Also second time she uses it ('i am sorry, william') it's used very gently.

Both times she meant business; it's like mothers when they are mad to their children: I've no time for this, William! Or when the subject they want to address is too serious: We have to have a very serious conversation, William.

It's not belittle, on the contrary, using his real name shows that she saw something else in Spike, even if unconsciously.

@Wildfly

No, not the second time, I'm sure, too. But the first time - she was irritated and "William" coming out of her mouth was a little unexpected...

 

[thetopher]

But that's it. The blue smurf said there are vamps who stink of humanity whom he can kill. And Spike unlike the master and Angelus often behaves like a human. He eats, he likes Manchester United and so on. I think it can be confusing to Buffy who used to different vamp behaviour.

Not really. Buffy has seen all sorts of vampires. From insano's like Kralick, slick operator's like Trick, preppy college bitches like Sunday, Dracula the 'seductive dark prince'. Oh, and Harmony. Lots of variety there that Buffy has interacted in that are far from typical vamps.

And here Spike behaves like a schoolboy in love, really awkward and funny, not, i dunno, blodsucker-like and Buffy's response, i think, is less to a vamp more an adult's response to an annoying teenager.

Bearing in mind that Spike was almost responsible for Riley's death the episode before I would go with utter lack of patience on Buffy's part when it comes to being in Spike's company.
Buffy has actual important things going on (sick Mom, new Big Bad) and really doesn't have time for Spike-y McLurky. I don't see it as anything more than that. 🙂

 

[Wildfly]

Not really. Buffy has seen all sorts of vampires. From insano's like Kralick, slick operator's like Trick, preppy college bitches like Sunday, Dracula the 'seductive dark prince'. Oh, and Harmony. Lots of variety there that Buffy has interacted in that are far from typical vamps.



Bearing in mind that Spike was almost responsible for Riley's death the episode before I would go with utter lack of patience on Buffy's part when it comes to being in Spike's company.
Buffy has actual important things going on (sick Mom, new Big Bad) and really doesn't have time for Spike-y McLurky. I don't see it as anything more than that. 🙂

Whats almost got Riley killed in the last episode was Riley himself. Buffy didn't pay much attention to Spike's antics, just punched him into a wall then focused on getting medical help for Riley.

Btw I found it interesting that in that previous episode she says to Riley she needs a normal guy, not a supernatural, otherwise:
"If that’s what I wanted, then I’d be dating Spike.”
Which is an interesting slip. Why would she even mention him, and not, say, Angel (whom Riley met and was jealous of) trying to reassure him they were over, or even Dracula?

Those are the vamp guys that wanted to be intimate with her. As far as she knows, Spike hates her guts and would kill her if not the chip.


And yes, we all agreed before that she had other things in her mind. Still interesting she called him that.

 

[thetopher]

Whats almost got Riley killed in the last episode was Riley himself. Buffy didn't pay much attention to Spike's antics, just punched him into a wall then focused on getting medical help for Riley.

Really disagree. Spike and Harmony stole the doctor who was there to help Riley, putting him in much more serious danger than he would've been otherwise. Riley was at death's door at the end of the episode because of that medical delay and the whole 'fight to the death' thing which left Riley collapsed on the ground clutching his chest.
Plus the fact that Spike was trying to get the chip out specifically to kill Buffy and his then trying to bite her. Spike was fairly evil here, and I still wonder why we didn't get to see a Bufyf/Spike aftermath confrotation instead of the dream sequence.

Btw I found it interesting that in that previous episode she says to Riley she needs a normal guy, not a supernatural, otherwise:
"If that’s what I wanted, then I’d be dating Spike.”
Which is an interesting slip.

I just think its Buffy's way of emphasising the ridiculousness of Riley's thought process (which is stupid). 'So you think I'm more into vampires because of the whole superpowers thing? Well lets think about that for a sec. If that were true...I'd be dating Spike!' It's a 'are you really that dumb?' moment shown through ridiculous imagery.
Sure Buffy could've said Angel or Dracula but really Buffy was trying to emphasise to Riley was an ass he was being by thinking of her as that shallow.

I do wonder where this 'Buffy is secrtetly into Spike in S5' thing comes from, since maybe we would've seen some sign of that in 'Crush'- but all we saw was disgust and loathing. That's more telling imo.

 

[Wildfly]

Really disagree. Spike and Harmony stole the doctor who was there to help Riley, putting him in much more serious danger than he would've been otherwise. Riley was at death's door at the end of the episode because of that medical delay and the whole 'fight to the death' thing which left Riley collapsed on the ground clutching his chest.

if we believe the medical expertise of that doc, Riley was at death's door even before. Sure, Spike didn't improve matters 🙂 but he was dismissed by Buffy as not important. She dealt with him in like, two seconds. Spike is not a big bad anymore, Spike isnt a threat. He is mainly ignored by Buffy, that's why i think she forgot about that confrontation as soon as he was out of the door.

Plus the fact that Spike was trying to get the chip out specifically to kill Buffy and his then trying to bite her. Spike was fairly evil here, and I still wonder why we didn't get to see a Bufyf/Spike aftermath confrotation instead of the dream sequence.

buffy thinks chip equals harmless. Annoying, but harmless. I bet it bugged Spike that she'd see him that way. In his dream she takes him seriously 🙂

I just think its Buffy's way of emphasising the ridiculousness of Riley's thought process (which is stupid). 'So you think I'm more into vampires because of the whole superpowers thing? Well lets think about that for a sec. If that were true...I'd be dating Spike!' It's a 'are you really that dumb?' moment shown through ridiculous imagery.

Sure Buffy could've said Angel or Dracula but really Buffy was trying to emphasise to Riley was an ass he was being by thinking of her as that shallow.

But Buffy was into vampires. What with her big love being Angel and all. Riley felt it all the time. That he wasn't enough for Buffy. And he was right, you know. And sure, she was trying to comfort him, saying something ridiculous, but still it sounded like Spike was in her dating pool. Not seriously, not consciously, but still as a potential sexual partner. And Riley got that vibe, he was jealous of Spike. Xander never considered seriously that Spike's creepy crush stood a chance, but Riley did, it is obvious in that conversation he had with Spike in his crypt.

I do wonder where this 'Buffy is secrtetly into Spike in S5' thing comes from, since maybe we would've seen some sign of that in 'Crush'- but all we saw was disgust and loathing. That's more telling imo.

In Crush, the thing was in the open for the first time, and it was scary. Creepy, what with the Buffy shrine and the shackles. Unthinkable. Absolutely ridiculous.
But when it wasn't in the open...
When they're bickering, their dynamics isn't that of a vamp and a Slayer.
Remember Spike in the bathtub and Buffy going "look at my poor neck...all bare and tender and exposed." Or when they confront each other after Buffy caught him. I am sure Willow's why won't she marry him was a version of 'go get a room, you two'. I think she and Giles just had enough watching those two in the previous day.

Besides it's not just disgust and loathing and bickering what we see in season 5.
When Spike is trashed and Buffy plays boot she is grateful and kisses him.
Why? Xander is human, he had a powerful crush on Buffy, he told her he liked her like Spike did, yet Buffy never kisses him, though he saved her life and helped her countless times and also got trashed for her. Still, as far as i know, Buffy never kissed Xander on the lips 😛

By no means i am trying to prove Buffy was secretly in love with Spike in season 5. But the sexual tension was there. She was responding to him.

 

[thetopher]

if we believe the medical expertise of that doc, Riley was at death's door even before. Sure, Spike didn't improve matters

In fact Spike made them worse, which is my point. He used Harmony as a proxy to be a real threat to Riley's situation. He does the same thing with Drusilla in 'Crush'.

She dealt with him in like, two seconds. Spike is not a big bad anymore, Spike isnt a threat.

He just proved himself to be. Adam, Harmony, whoever. Spike is capable of helping others do bad things. If Buffy thinks that he's not a threat, well that's her opinion- but if he wasn't a threat there wouldn't have been any drama in the last part of the episode.

He is mainly ignored by Buffy, that's why i think she forgot about that confrontation as soon as he was out of the door.

I think is was very poor writing to be honest. Another 'suspend your disbelief' bit to explain why Spike still lives.

But Buffy was into vampires. What with her big love being Angel and all.

Vampire. Singular. And for the record Buffy liked Angel before she knew he was a vampire. She also struggled with the concept of being attracted to a vampire but she apparently couldn't help it. Dracular was mind-control/thrall. Two separate situations is not a pattern.
The whole 'she needs a bit of monster in her man' is just Spike guff. Buffy has in the past, and the future, liked non-vampire guys. And also a non-vampire girl as well.

And sure, she was trying to comfort him, saying something ridiculous, but still it sounded like Spike was in her dating pool. Not seriously, not consciously, but still as a potential sexual partner. And Riley got that vibe, he was jealous of Spike.

Xander never considered seriously that Spike's creepy crush stood a chance, but Riley did, it is obvious in that conversation he had with Spike in his crypt.

You're mixing the timeline up. Riley only realized that Spike had roamntic feelings for Buffy in 'Shadow' at the earliest (when he caught Spike sniffing her underthings), which is way AFTER 'Out Of My Mind'.
Riley's jealousy and insecurity have nothing to do with Spike. They have something to do with Angel (from last year where Buffy made Angel into this huge deal) and also a lot to do with Buffy not needing Riley's emotional support. Add to that Dawn's offhand comments about the intensity that was Bangel and Spike's manipulations 'Buffy's got a type and you're just not it' (also from Shadow) and Riley goes off the rails a bit.

The thing was in the open for the first time, and it was scary. Creepy, what with the Buffy shrine and the shackles. Unthinkable. Absolutely ridiculous. But when it wasn't in the open...When they're bickering, their dynamics isnt that of a vamp and a Slayer.

No, its of vampire slayer and non-threatening ex-Big bad. You said it yourself. Why would Buffy treat Spike like an actual threatening vampire- well he's not even a loser anymore, he's a shell of a loser' etc.

Remember Spike in the bathtub and Buffy going "look at my poor neck...all bare and tender and exposed."

She's teasing him! He's being annoying and Buffy is trying to annoy Spike as much as possible. What, you think she's hitting on him or something?

Or when they confront each other after Buffy caught him. I am sure Willow's why won't she marry him was a version of 'go get a room, you two'.

I disagree. Willow made an off-handed comment because Buffy wasn't spending enough time with her doing the best-friend thing, instead she's off doing the slayer-duty thing. That's where the comment comes from 'oh, Spike's more important than me' blah, blah.
Willow isn't commenting on some (non-existent) sexual tension, otherwise why is she so shocked in 'Crush' along with Buffy herself?

I mean, you get that there's no Spuffy in S4, right?

When Spike is trashed and Buffy plays boot she is grateful and kisses him. Why?

Because of gratitude? That's all it was.
See, Buffy loves Xander and she knows that he loves her back- she trusts him because he is one of her best friends, they've been through so much that its an unspoken thing.
Buffy doesn't have that connection with Spike- he has been an enemy, a stalker and, at best, a reluctant ally. So maybe Buffy thinks that Spike needs a demonstation of her gratitude that Xander does not. An 'i appreciate what you did' moment.
I mean, not even Jane Espenson- who actually wrote the scene and is the biggest Spuffy on the show- says its anything romantic. It's a sweet thank you and nothing more.

 

[Wildfly]

Let's just put a well-meaning chipped fyarl demon or andrew with a crush on buffy in spike's place. You still think buffy would have teased him and kissed him in the lips if he'd helped her and willow would still marry her off? I had a lot of fun watching those two in season 5 but i understand if others dont agree with me about spuffy season 5 goodness.

Let's just agree to disagree about how we interpret Spike-Buffy dynamics 🙂

 

[gite63]

Really disagree. Spike and Harmony stole the doctor who was there to help Riley, putting him in much more serious danger than he would've been otherwise. Riley was at death's door at the end of the episode because of that medical delay and the whole 'fight to the death' thing which left Riley collapsed on the ground clutching his chest.

It's interesting how Buffy dismissed all this very quickly. If Dawn or Angel was in Riley's place, Spike would have been dusted.

By no means i am trying to prove Buffy was secretly in love with Spike in season 5. But the sexual tension was there. She was responding to him.

When Spike is trashed and Buffy plays boot she is grateful and kisses him. Why? Xander is human, he had a powerful crush on Buffy, he told her he liked her like Spike did, yet Buffy never kisses him, though he saved her life and helped her countless times and also got trashed for her. Still, as far as i know, Buffy never kissed Xander on the lips

Besides it's not just disgust and loathing and bickering what we see in season 5.
When Spike is trashed and Buffy plays boot she is grateful and kisses him.
Why? Xander is human, he had a powerful crush on Buffy, he told her he liked her like Spike did, yet Buffy never kisses him, though he saved her life and helped her countless times and also got trashed for her. Still, as far as i know, Buffy never kissed Xander on the lips

Let's just put a well-meaning chipped fyarl demon or andrew with a crush on buffy in spike's place.

As I said in another thread:

"I think she started seeing Spike as something more than a monster (or an annoying chipped ally who claimed to be in love with her) in Intervention, after what he did for Dawn (she even gave him a pass over the Buffybot affair)."

But yeah, I agree that there are people you ARE attracted to and there are people you are NOT attracted to. The way she jumped onto his dead body on S6 kind of shows that she really wanted to taste it; instead of put him in his place, she rewarded him with something he had been desiring for quite some time - and that didn't come from nowhere.

 

[thetopher]

It's interesting how Buffy dismissed all this very quickly. If Dawn or Angel was in Riley's place, Spike would have been dusted.

So she didn't love Riley enough to dust Spike for putting his life in danger? Doesn't that make her kinda bitchy and callous?

The way she jumped onto his dead body on S6 kind of shows that she really wanted to taste it; instead of put him in his place, she rewarded him with something he had been desiring for quite some time - and that didn't come from nowhere.

Buffy was in a dark place in S6 and was desparate to feel anything. I think Buffy's attraction started in S6 because that's where she specifically goes to hang around Spike without any reason to. 'After Life' and afterwards.
Also how well did Buffy know Parker before she went and got all passionate with him? About a week or two, not that long really before she gave in to lust/attraction.