What happened to Cordy after "You're Welcome"

[The Arcane]

I haven't seen anything in the scripts, or read anything in the external literature convincing me I'm not entitled to the warm, fuzzy feeling I get believing that. 🙂

Oh, absolutely! As i've said before, i think we both agree that it was left ambiguous for the simple reason of letting each and every Buffy/Angel fan make up their own mind which particular "ultimate power" was pulling the strings of the slayerverse.

What works for me though is that you don't need any real religious belief to enjoy Buffy and Angel's mythology. You can incorporate your particular religion into it, if you so wish, but at the end of the day it provides you with it's own built in supreme power, in the form of the PtB.

For example, just to give the opposite view of the instances you mentioned, the rules controlling Jasmine's return could very easily have been governed by the other PtB, stopping her from making a more obvious move on our reality. The tale Jasmine told about the origins of the PtB suggested more to me that they chose to leave to avoid conflict with the demonic forces of evil that were starting to dominate Earth, rather than by anything of a higher power above them.

Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters"”the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.

From that, it seems to me that the original demons and PtB were actually of the same race but over time some became good and some became evil. Eventually those that would one day be known to us as the PtB made a choice to leave, rather than share the world with the growing evil among them.

As far as humanity and it's creation goes, i would say she describes our evolution, more than our creation ...

But then something new emerged from deep inside the earth"”neither demon, nor God.

Certainly she doesn't make any claim that the PtB had anything to do with creating us, but nor does she say that anything else did either. We simple developed from the Earth, which is the case, when all is said and done. We really did evolve as a part of this world.

As far as her being forged in the fires of creation is concerned, that may well be the case. The PtB might well have been around for as long as the Universe has existed, but that would not guarantee that anyone or anything intentionally created them, anymore than anything neccessarily created us. We evolved as a lifeform on this world and the PtB came into being as a part of the fabric of the Universe. There does not need to be anyone above that, making the decisions. It could simply just be the way it happened, with no intent involved at all.

As for what Buffy said, well as powerful as she is, she certainly isn't in a position to declare ultimate knowledge of her reality, no matter what her true creator, Mr Whedon, may or may not intend. her answer to Holden was the only one she was able to give. Although, as far as i'm aware she doesn't know all that much about the PtB either.

My only point to all this being that, whilst it is brilliant for those with a religious belief that they are able to incorporate that into the story, thanks to Joss being willing to leave things open, i find it just as important to people such as myself that you can also remove religion from the story entirely. I'm a firm believer in evolution and that we weren't created by anything other than a fluke of chemicals in the primordial oceans so it's good for me that the story allows that possibility to exist as well.

Having said all that, it's good to know you can get your warm fuzzies from your way of thinking too, N4H! 🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

Yeah it's kind of clever how they do it, isn't it? I mean I could go back, and debate you on every point (and I'll be honest, it's tempting), but really why bother, when we both know, we're both right. 🙂

I've been following the buzz on that Chronicles of Narnia thing that opened this weekend, I think there's something germaine about what I've been hearing concerning that, to this conversation.

Apparently the writer, CS Lewis was vocally Christian, and offered up all these Christian icons, and symbology to be imbedded in the story. That doesn't mean a Jew, atheist, Wiccah or Buddhist can't find relevance in that stuff. In fact, I bet a lot of them do. Most likely they find ways of rationalizing things from their individual perspectives, much as you and I do with the PTB.

 

[The Arcane]

I would imagine so. The fact is that throughout history there have been many myths and legends that have been adapted to suit multiple belief systems. One prime example is how the pantheons of the Greeks and Romans originated from the same basic tales and yet both cultures were able to adapt the stories just enough to suit their particular beliefs.

Without a doubt, Joss knew exactly what he was doing by leaving so much of the higher levels of his own slayer mythology open to individual interpretation. Everyone who watches it can take away whatever message they choose and include whatever gods (or not) that they may believe in. Quite simply, nobody is wrong.

Clever guy, that Whedon! 😉

 

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, in fact, going back to Cordy, I think it's monstrous clever how they allow both you and me to be satisfied with Cordy's fate coming from two totally opposite perspectives.

The main reason I'm not comfortable thinking of Cordy winding up with the PTB is they always strike me as being so lame - fallible, impotent, uninterested. Now coming from an atheist's POV, what a delicious description of supernatural beings. Still... Cordy the screwup went to stay with the other screwups - the nice ones. How sweet. 🙂

From the perspective of someone such as myself however who's more comfortable believing in an omnipotent force and will that patterns the rules of the universe I can still believe Cordy maybe went there, because there exists in the Buffyverse support for that possibility as well.

 

[The Arcane]

The main reason I'm not comfortable thinking of Cordy winding up with the PTB is they always strike me as being so lame - fallible, impotent, uninterested. Now coming from an atheist's POV, what a delicious description of supernatural beings.

You hit the nail right on the head with that comment, N4H! I'm the exact opposite of you in that i have a real problem with the idea that anything is directing things with a definite pattern. I like the idea that fate is what you make it.

With the PTB, their idea is to keep a balance between good and evil, for whatever reason, but only by watching and preventing the evil forces from gaining the upper hand. They do this by way of their champions, to whom they give just enough information to allow them to set things right again. fair enough, in my mind. Powerful beings, keeping an eye on things but ultimately not interfering, and certainly not attempting to control us or our fates.

Jasmine, of course, was the exception to the rule. She thought the best way to keep us safe was to remove our free will and manipulate events so that the world was exactly the way she thought best. Paradise on Earth? Not in my mind! lol! As Angel said, we need the freedom to live, even if that only leads to our destruction.

So yeah, i most definately need my fictional powerful supernatural beings to be fallible, because that suits my beliefs in reality too. I actually do believe that there are beings out there that are infinitely more powerful than us, but i don't think for one second that they are gods and i will certainly never believe that anyone or anything was responsible for our creation. What i am willing to believe is that there are races out there that evolved long before we did and have since become a lot wiser and more powerful, but certainly not all powerful and definately not gods. That is absolutely why the PTB work so well for me.

 

[eunsoma]

I think Cordy is in a place where she can still help people in a hands on place, not with the PTB, they are not good or evil, Cordy is in a place of only good where she can change things on earth to help people, like for example when Angel's aloud into Kates appartment with no invite.