What I Hate About Feminist Fiction

Noitartst

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The main problem I have with feminist fiction, mainly, is that it puts masculinity in a bad light. Femininsts, or at least the post-femininsts, argue that feminism is about equality, but in fiction, an idea usually has to be touted at the expense of another idea, making it look weak in the process. In the case of feminism, it has two enemies--traditional masculinity, and traditional femininity.

Over and over again in feminist-themed fiction, I see ton of bullying, making ideas I like, or am at least sympathetic to, look weak--and the stortelling isn't even that good, to boot, and there go the left-wing critics, fawning over it, applauding the cleverness and ignoring its moral preachiness simply becasue it's singing their song.

I've the same thing too, folks, applauding bullying, namely, because I agreed with the animating idea, and not examined the full scope of my actions. I've loathed superheroes' obsession with nonviolence, finding it lame, and then came across a comic where the Punisher forced Daredevil to violate his values by forcing him to violate his values. I was enthralled, or was until somebody told me he hated seeing people written out of character, and then I reconsidered.

In my reckoning, good writing is the same a clever writing, but what keeps good from great, you see, is attention to detail, and tolerance for cheap shots, even if they don't fit the greater tapestry. It's sometimes annoying, but at the least, it's given me a pretty fair measuring stick to judge others, and hopefully steered me from hypocrisy.

A great example of feminism making men look weak comes at the end of the fifth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where Willow takes charge. Joss Whedon, the series creator, was trying to make Willow into a leader, but what of Giles and Spike? Well, in terms of what came before, neither Willow, nor GIles, nor Spike acted much in character, and while cleverly done, lubed by ideology, that neverthless ranks in my mind as a classic case of clever bullying. Folks like Whedon believe in female empowerment, equality, but when that devolves, I take offense, because he's essentially what he thinks he's despising.

Contrast such characterization on Buffy with The Powerpuff Girls, where the namesake protagonists must contend with the most pathetic of patriarchs imaginable in a boss. There's no sideswipes here, just a hapless old fudddy-duddy who can't even open a pickle jar unassisted. As an individual, there's nothing to respect, but respect him the girls do out of courtesy to seniors, and also commitment to authority, a fine sight better than the arrogance of Buffy, in my mind.

Feminism is widely said to be about equality, and if they mean it as a means to promote merit, I wholeheartedly endorse it; some animals are just more equal than others, and man or woman, I appreciate the exceptionalist. At its worst, though, if the drive for "equality" makes one tar a group for the other's expense, not only is it bad morality, it's also bad writing.
 
It sounds like you are taking some of these themes personally. What had happened in your own life where you feel you have been adversely effected by "feminism" (which is many things to many people of course)?

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A great example of feminism making men look weak comes at the end of the fifth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where Willow takes charge. Joss Whedon, the series creator, was trying to make Willow into a leader, but what of Giles and Spike? Well, in terms of what came before, neither Willow, nor GIles, nor Spike acted much in character, and while cleverly done, lubed by ideology, that neverthless ranks in my mind as a classic case of clever bullying. Folks like Whedon believe in female empowerment, equality, but when that devolves, I take offense, because he's essentially what he thinks he's despising.

Contrast such characterization on Buffy with The Powerpuff Girls, where the namesake protagonists must contend with the most pathetic of patriarchs imaginable in a boss. There's no sideswipes here, just a hapless old fudddy-duddy who can't even open a pickle jar unassisted. As an individual, there's nothing to respect, but respect him the girls do out of courtesy to seniors, and also commitment to authority, a fine sight better than the arrogance of Buffy, in my mind.

Feminism is widely said to be about equality, and if they mean it as a means to promote merit, I wholeheartedly endorse it; some animals are just more equal than others, and man or woman, I appreciate the exceptionalist. At its worst, though, if the drive for "equality" makes one tar a group for the other's expense, not only is it bad morality, it's also bad writing.

I completely disagree.

I don't like your comparison to be honest, your comparing a grown women to 3 kindergarten kids (or something of that age). The way a grown up women shows respect would and should be completely different to how 3 children do.

I think your looking for the idea of sexist-feminism, which is definitely out there and does go on, but I don't see any reason why Willow wouldn't be leader given the facts of the show, forgetting Whedons ideology.

Spike would never be in the running to be leader. He couldn't lead that team, I'd use the term friends loosely between him and the scoobies, there is no way they'd let him lead.
Aside from that he wouldn't have deserved to be leader, he was a soulless vampire at the time, who until half a year earlier was still doing a lot of questionable things.
As far as I'm concerned he shouldn't be considered.

Giles would seem like natural leader, but to be honest, he had never been the leader. Giles was sent to Sunnydale to lead Buffy but ended up being lead by her her. He had no idea about the hellmouth and learned a lot of his practical demon knowledge on the job - along side Willow and Xander.
He'd told Willow in season 4 he was thinking of leaving, as he wasn't needed to lead them, Buffy was a natural leader, and the rest could handle themselves.

Willow by the end of Season 5 was the strongest person in the scoobies, including Buffy. Buffy was physically strong. Willow was incredibly clever and had her powers. Without Buffy there, Willow is naturally the second in command.

The terms of Willow being made leader are equally fare, plus the scoobies voted.

It seems to be your saying, because of Joss's beliefs, the discussion in the writers room would have been "Well Buffys dead, whos the next girl... yeah Willow will do"
Honestly to me, thats flirting with being sexist, your negating the actual facts of the show (Which are: Giles hasn't been the leader since ever really. Willow was the strongest person on the team) to make a statement about how you think Joss is using feminism to be sexist.
 
SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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I...understand your point, although I don't think it applies, most of the time, to BTVS. I certainly don't agree that Willow being elected the leader of the Scoobies in S5 fits with what you're saying.

I don't agree with much of what you wrote, but I like to think that I'm an open person who can see the points of views of others. And with that in mind, Joss Whedon does seem to have some major issues with masculinity in general. I don't think that's reflected through most of the series, and it certainly isn't on Angel (although he didn't have a huge presence on that show), but there are a few episodes where there are some very anti-guy messages being portrayed, and his commentary on a few of them backs that up.

Joss seems to really believe that every male in the world has some sort of "beast" inside him, and that's a notion I completely disagree with. In fact, I think he gets pretty sexist himself at times in that belief. But to be fair to Joss, I can only think of two occasions where that's been thrust in the viewer's face. S3's "Beauty and the Beasts" is one of them, and S4's "Wild at Heart" is the other. "Wild at Heart" in particular, I found really insulting, actually. The commentary that Whedon provided for that episode, if you'd reversed it and had him talking about women instead of men, would have been derided as sexist and degrading by anyone who heard it. It was pretty disgusting, to be honest.

But as I said, those are only a few times, and for the rest of the series, I never got the sense that Joss was "putting guys down" to raise up women or anything like that. Sure, he gets preachy at times, and I don't usually like that in my television, but I rarely found it overbearing. Is it a form of bullying? Maybe a bit, but not for the most part. You'd be hard pressed to find a serious form of entertainment that doesn't have its own agenda or message behind it. That's just the world we live in.

99 percent of the time, I found BTVS to be an incredibly inspiring show.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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S
Sweet J
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You HATE feminist fiction...yet you're on a Buffy the Vampire Slayer (slash Angel, slash Firefly, slash Dollhouse...all of these shows can be considered feminist fiction) forum? I'm beyond confused right now.
 
nightshade
nightshade
it seems all his threads are on feminism
Willow is a competent smart woman. It wasn't strange that she was put in charge. It's strange that you think it's strange. Also feminists doesn't dislike traditional gender roles per se, we dislike that many times they seem like the only option. People should be free to choose who they want to be and how they express themselves. That is what feminism fights for. For everyones rights, not just girls.
 
I
itssmiletime
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SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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As BEG said, Spike was never leader material and definitely not for the Scoobies. Now for Giles, I'm surprised nobody mentioned it yet, but he was badly hurt. He wasn't in the best position to lead. Willow was de facto the logical leader. I really don't know how you saw that as clever bullying.
 
Xander should have been the leader in the Gift, he has more than once (Graduation day pt II, Innocence etc.) shown to have a natural capability in orchestrating a defense against a greater adversary.

As for the feminism thing, Buffy was always corny as hell when it started pushing the feminist theme. It was better when it wasn't trying to beat people over the head with it.

In saying that however, most of BtVS was pretty normal and enjoyable(tis me favorite show you know), and it is incomparable to the extremist 'feminism' that I've had the personal distaste of encountering.
 
Xander should have been the leader in the Gift, he has more than once (Graduation day pt II, Innocence etc.) shown to have a natural capability in orchestrating a defense against a greater adversary.

Ehh, he was probably briefed by Buffy and Giles in Graduation Day before the fight actually began. Additionally, he presumably still had some left-over memories of his stint as a soldier in Halloween. Those apparently faded away with time. Never was he shown as being the leader type after that until the comics and S8.
 
It sounds like you are taking some of these themes personally. What had happened in your own life where you feel you have been adversely effected by "feminism" (which is many things to many people of course)?

____________________
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I hate sloppy thinking, just as I hate sloppy storytelling. On the other hand, in taking things personal, once in college, where with humor i pointed out how laughable it was to call Sailor Moon feminist, I got attacked by my teacher.

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------

It seems to be your saying, because of Joss's beliefs, the discussion in the writers room would have been "Well Buffys dead, whos the next girl... yeah Willow will do"
Honestly to me, thats flirting with being sexist, your negating the actual facts of the show (Which are: Giles hasn't been the leader since ever really. Willow was the strongest person on the team) to make a statement about how you think Joss is using feminism to be sexist.

Well, if I'm flirting with sexism, then Whedon seems to like flirting with sexism, too.... Keep in mind, though, friend, that I like the show, a show about a super-powered girl, so at the least, I'm not all against Joss, or Buffy.

In theory, at least, I'm not against Willow, but I found how Willow took charge out of character, and rather arrogant, to boot.

As I see it, Whedon's simply an excellent writer, but sometimes takes sideswipes at masculinity, generalizing men in a way feminists wouldn't tolerate women being generalized as, etc.

The way I see it, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if one gender can be generalized, it should be acceptable to treat the other likewise.

That's my take on equality.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

I...understand your point, although I don't think it applies, most of the time, to BTVS. I certainly don't agree that Willow being elected the leader of the Scoobies in S5 fits with what you're saying.

I don't agree with much of what you wrote, but I like to think that I'm an open person who can see the points of views of others. And with that in mind, Joss Whedon does seem to have some major issues with masculinity in general. I don't think that's reflected through most of the series, and it certainly isn't on Angel (although he didn't have a huge presence on that show), but there are a few episodes where there are some very anti-guy messages being portrayed, and his commentary on a few of them backs that up.

Joss seems to really believe that every male in the world has some sort of "beast" inside him, and that's a notion I completely disagree with. In fact, I think he gets pretty sexist himself at times in that belief. But to be fair to Joss, I can only think of two occasions where that's been thrust in the viewer's face. S3's "Beauty and the Beasts" is one of them, and S4's "Wild at Heart" is the other. "Wild at Heart" in particular, I found really insulting, actually. The commentary that Whedon provided for that episode, if you'd reversed it and had him talking about women instead of men, would have been derided as sexist and degrading by anyone who heard it. It was pretty disgusting, to be honest.

But as I said, those are only a few times, and for the rest of the series, I never got the sense that Joss was "putting guys down" to raise up women or anything like that. Sure, he gets preachy at times, and I don't usually like that in my television, but I rarely found it overbearing. Is it a form of bullying? Maybe a bit, but not for the most part. You'd be hard pressed to find a serious form of entertainment that doesn't have its own agenda or message behind it. That's just the world we live in.

99 percent of the time, I found BTVS to be an incredibly inspiring show.

Friend, I think what you're saying, in effect, is that you've gotten a little too used to masculinity getting kicked around, basically. And you know what? Sometimes, I think I've gotten too tolerant of the exact same thing.
 
Well, if I'm flirting with sexism, then Whedon seems to like flirting with sexism, too.... Keep in mind, though, friend, that I like the show, a show about a super-powered girl, so at the least, I'm not all against Joss, or Buffy.

In theory, at least, I'm not against Willow, but I found how Willow took charge out of character, and rather arrogant, to boot.

She didn't, the scoobies voted, Xander, Anya and Tara chose her as leader.

In the show I was watching, Willow was THE most powerful person when Buffy died. In the opening of season 6, Willow is the one, literally, giving the scoobies the commands and telling them were to go to form the best attack. She was their leader because she had the resources to be.

How was it out of character? Willows character had going through a lot of changes since season 4, but in season 5 we see a number of instances of a take-charge Willow. Willow goes after Glory when she sucks her brain, she goes in alone.

Then when glory catches up to them in that shack and takes Dawn, Buffy goes comatose and Giles has to go to the hospital. Spike and Xander are squabbling, Willow immediately takes command of that situation, shuts the two of them down, and she gives everyone instructs and completely runs the show - because the rest of them couldn't.

No one else was fit to lead, as I mentioned before, Spike would never be leader, Xander isn't ready, Giles is injured and Anya/Tara wouldn't have been considered.

Leading was out of character for season 1 Willow yes, hell even season 2 Willow took over teaching a high school computer class, Willow been leading for a long time.


As I see it, Whedon's simply an excellent writer, but sometimes takes sideswipes at masculinity, generalizing men in a way feminists wouldn't tolerate women being generalized as, etc.

The way I see it, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if one gender can be generalized, it should be acceptable to treat the other likewise.

That's my take on equality.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------



Friend, I think what you're saying, in effect, is that you've gotten a little too used to masculinity getting kicked around, basically. And you know what? Sometimes, I think I've gotten too tolerant of the exact same thing.

I dislike extreme feminists, they annoy me, as do all extremist who want to blabber about their religion or whatever else, so I do understand what your talking about. I just dont see how it applies to the show.

I could see your point if this was one 40 minuet episode, that was blatantly gender biased. But over the course of the show both sexes mess up or do good things, take control of situations or step back unable to lead. We also have female and male good/bad guys. Looking at specific point and calling it sexist, is redundant because that power balance changes.

Whedon may have referred to men as having a beast in them, but he then gave Angel his own show, and showed a man giving his everything to save the world, he also had Spike save the world, Xander talked Willow down, saving the world, and not becasue he was a man, becasue he was her best friend. We got Drusilla and Glory as a big bads, but we also had the Mayor and the Master. If all the good guys were female and all the bad guys were male you might have a point.

If he hasn't statically set one sex and the good and one as the bad, I don't see how you can take it as sexist when looking over the course of the whole show.

He does make sideswipes at men, but he also makes sideswipes at women - that should be okay, as long as he's doing it to both sexes.

To me, your just nit picking, you've gotten annoyed by some extreme feminists views and over compensated by pointing out incidents where men weren't highlighted the best, which is the same thing some extreme feminists do that drive me insane (I'm thinking of an example of one I read where a writer got insulted by a man holding a door open for her - thats just common courtesy not sexism)

If your looking for it you will create it, not find it.
 
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E
EffyStonem
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I hate sloppy thinking, just as I hate sloppy storytelling. On the other hand, in taking things personal, once in college, where with humor i pointed out how laughable it was to call Sailor Moon feminist, I got attacked by my teacher.

There is your problem right there man, why do you care what other people think? and why didn't you continue to respond with laughter at this ''teacher''? It sounds pretty humorous to me to have experienced a ''teacher'' looping out and vitriolicly arguing that a certain manga show should only be viewed and interpreted through the feminist lens. Talk about indoctrination. From the sounds of it you picked some sort of arts course, and from my personal experience with friends who followed the same line of education as you, they had all communicated to me that their half of the 'college' was essentially a breeding ground for a whole host of societies ills, from the 'diversity tolerance' extended to permitting the gender segregation weekly enforced in the Islamic 'club' meetings, to the admiration of communism and the tyranny it brings, and to trying to shoe horn feminist/masculist dichotomies into every last piece of fiction on the entire planet. The arts faculty of many a college, of course, like to describe themselves as enlightened and cast themselves as 'intelligentsia', but really they're often nothing more than spineless axe-grinding fruit loops.

Go make, or discover, something new and beautiful and forget them, don't let yourself be dragged down by their obvious neuroses.

As for BtVS, I do partly agree with you in regards to sloppy story telling in BtVS, the show was enjoyable when it was telling a good story, and not when it was serving as a soap box for a particular ideology that happened to be trendy at the time of writing, a writing style that is akin to propaganda at worse and a cheap writing gimmick designed to translate into trendoid following viewers/ fast cash, at best.

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

Ehh, he was probably briefed by Buffy and Giles in Graduation Day before the fight actually began.

What has led you to assume this? they worked together as a team, Xander was logistics guy for the ordnance used on the day and he was the ''key guy'' remember, in charge of the whole class of 1999? They held together pretty well and didn't do so bad, considering it was for many, the first time any of them ever saw a 40+ meter tall talking snake creature.

Additionally, he presumably still had some left-over memories of his stint as a soldier in Halloween. Those apparently faded away with time. Never was he shown as being the leader type after that until the comics and S8.

Agreed, he was leader material all that time, and was being entirely under utilized until then.
 
Leading was out of character for season 1 Willow yes, hell even season 2 Willow took over teaching a high school computer class, Willow been leading for a long time.

In the Dark Age Willow took over and worked out what they needed to do, before getting Angel in to do it, that was season 2. Willow has taken charge right from the beginning really.
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
Yeah true!
There is your problem right there man, why do you care what other people think? and why didn't you continue to respond with laughter at this ''teacher''? It sounds pretty humorous to me to have experienced a ''teacher'' looping out and vitriolicly arguing that a certain manga show should only be viewed and interpreted through the feminist lens. Talk about indoctrination. From the sounds of it you picked some sort of arts course, and from my personal experience with friends who followed the same line of education as you, they had all communicated to me that their half of the 'college' was essentially a breeding ground for a whole host of societies ills, from the 'diversity tolerance' extended to permitting the gender segregation weekly enforced in the Islamic 'club' meetings, to the admiration of communism and the tyranny it brings, and to trying to shoe horn feminist/masculist dichotomies into every last piece of fiction on the entire planet. The arts faculty of many a college, of course, like to describe themselves as enlightened and cast themselves as 'intelligentsia', but really they're often nothing more than spineless axe-grinding fruit loops.

Quoted for truth. If you want to impress me with writing "credentials", show me a degree in structural engineering or a program management diploma. To quote screenwriter William Goldman (who wrote Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Princess Bride, Marathon Man and a few others:

SCREENPLAY IS STRUCTURE

A considerable number of the people who went through electrical engineering with me had no real aptitude, but took the course to get away from the subjective marking and political agendas in the arts.
 
S
Sweet J
[No message]
She didn't, the scoobies voted, Xander, Anya and Tara chose her as leader.

In the show I was watching, Willow was THE most powerful person when Buffy died. In the opening of season 6, Willow is the one, literally, giving the scoobies the commands and telling them were to go to form the best attack. She was their leader because she had the resources to be.

How was it out of character? Willows character had going through a lot of changes since season 4, but in season 5 we see a number of instances of a take-charge Willow. Willow goes after Glory when she sucks her brain, she goes in alone.

Then when glory catches up to them in that shack and takes Dawn, Buffy goes comatose and Giles has to go to the hospital. Spike and Xander are squabbling, Willow immediately takes command of that situation, shuts the two of them down, and she gives everyone instructs and completely runs the show - because the rest of them couldn't.

I’d just started watching Buffy that season, and that scene left me shocked, and showed to me clearer than ever that Whedon’s view of female empowerment comes at male expense, making them look weak compared to women. Look, Whedon’s even willing to dedicate a full episode to make Spike and Angel look silly in Angel’s “Tthe Girl in Question.”
The point isn’t that I object to a woman taking charge, it’s the how, and it strikes me that Willow wouldn’t because that’s not Willow’s style. Think about, if she did, it would be far angrier, more emotional, and with less sense of control. So why do it thus? I think it jives with Joss’s empowerment theme, at the expense of characterization, and as such, I find it a sideswipe, albeit a clever one.
No one else was fit to lead, as I mentioned before, Spike would never be leader, Xander isn't ready, Giles is injured and Anya/Tara wouldn't have been considered.

Leading was out of character for season 1 Willow yes, hell even season 2 Willow took over teaching a high school computer class, Willow been leading for a long time.




I dislike extreme feminists, they annoy me, as do all extremist who want to blabber about their religion or whatever else, so I do understand what your talking about. I just dont see how it applies to the show.
You don’t? Well, I think Joss’s feminist MO is like arsenic poison, something designed to kill by degress, not immediately. I don’t seem to be the only one who’s picked up on Joss’s attitude, though; take a look at Always Bangel’s post. In it, Bangel says:
…Joss Whedon does seem to have some major issues with masculinity in general. I don't think that's reflected through most of the series, and it certainly isn't on Angel (although he didn't have a huge presence on that show), but there are a few episodes where there are some very anti-guy messages being portrayed, and his commentary on a few of them backs that up.
Joss seems to really believe that every male in the world has some sort of "beast" inside him, and that's a notion I completely disagree with. In fact, I think he gets pretty sexist himself at times in that belief. But to be fair to Joss, I can only think of two occasions where that's been thrust in the viewer's face. S3's "Beauty and the Beasts" is one of them, and S4's "Wild at Heart" is the other. "Wild at Heart" in particular, I found really insulting, actually. The commentary that Whedon provided for that episode, if you'd reversed it and had him talking about women instead of men, would have been derided as sexist and degrading by anyone who heard it. It was pretty disgusting, to be honest.
No, Joss doesn’t often thrust his prejudice in my face, but I sure don’t like it when he does. I may be more sensitive to it than others, but I ‘m not alone to complain about this.
Oh, and I disagree with Bangel about his prejudice not showing up on Angel. No, it’s not as prominent, given the shows’ many differneces, including thematics, but it’s in the background, his wiliingness to knock Angel for his vanity, but not Buffy, who’s a cheerleader, for crying out loud (Cordelia, of course, but never Buffy—please, give me a reverse example, if you can).
I think Joss likes Buffy more than Angel, and that explains the difference in show qualities, among other things. Joss seemed to enjoy putting Angel in situations that made the audience laugh at him for the sake of laughing at him, and I just found that tedious.
I care a lot more about Buffy than Angel, and it’s a tribute to Whedon’s passion. For all my hatred of the sideswipes, it’s still a brilliant show.
I could see your point if this was one 40 minuet episode, that was blatantly gender biased. But over the course of the show both sexes mess up or do good things, take control of situations or step back unable to lead. We also have female and male good/bad guys. Looking at specific point and calling it sexist, is redundant because that power balance changes.

Whedon may have referred to men as having a beast in them, but he then gave Angel his own show, and showed a man giving his everything to save the world, he also had Spike save the world, Xander talked Willow down, saving the world, and not becasue he was a man, becasue he was her best friend. We got Drusilla and Glory as a big bads, but we also had the Mayor and the Master. If all the good guys were female and all the bad guys were male you might have a point.
As I’ve said, just because I think Joss is a closet bully, it doesn’t make him a monster, or even a bad writer. All I want from him is to stop makin’ sideswipes—he’s better than that.
Oh, and by the way, what do you you think of “The Girl in Question”? Spike and and Angel were ridiculous in the episode(and dare you say out of character?)—ever seen one where Buffy was comparably so?
If he hasn't statically set one sex and the good and one as the bad, I don't see how you can take it as sexist when looking over the course of the whole show.

He does make sideswipes at men, but he also makes sideswipes at women - that should be okay, as long as he's doing it to both sexes.
Oh, he does, but his jokes on women are more character, or stereotype-specific. With men, he makes broader, negative jokes; surely I’m not the only one that’s noticed this.
And by the way, ironically, I find Spike to be the only great character in the Buffyverse, given how overcomes various forms of masculine impairment. Joss liked to kick him down, but unlike his other puching bags, Spike had a remarkable resilience, and that made him fascinating in a way Buffy’s character never was. (I’m pretty usre fan polls will generally support this.)
To me, your just nit picking, you've gotten annoyed by some extreme feminists views and over compensated by pointing out incidents where men weren't highlighted the best, which is the same thing some extreme feminists do that drive me insane (I'm thinking of an example of one I read where a writer got insulted by a man holding a door open for her - thats just common courtesy not sexism)
If your looking for it you will create it, not find it.
I think that you’re not focused on attitude; if attitude bothered you more, you’d start to see things a bit different. J.K. Rowling, for instant, is what I ‘d classify as a post-feminist, and wouldn’t have minded Hermione to be more assertive, because she was so smart and competent.

Ironically, Rowling, at one point, Rowling said no one had ever asked if Hermione was getting killed of, and that surprised her, like it did me. It seems even well-written characters need vulnerability for people to care about them, and Hermione, despite being all-girl, hadn’t much.
As for BtVS, I do partly agree with you in regards to sloppy story telling in BtVS, the show was enjoyable when it was telling a good story, and not when it was serving as a soap box for a particular ideology that happened to be trendy at the time of writing, a writing style that is akin to propaganda at worse and a cheap writing gimmick designed to translate into trendoid following viewers/ fast cash, at best.QUOTE]
Right—Buffy was special, but it could have been better, and that meant zoning out the cheap shots, and focusing on depth, which it sometimes did, but not always. It’s tempting to go for the quick joke, but to for the one dovetailing with both the characters and story theme—that’s golden.
To me, the best Buffy season was the sixth one, you know? Buffy fought depression, I was fighting depression, then, and the criticisms I’ve been speaking of were particular miniscule, then.
Quoted for truth. If you want to impress me with writing "credentials", show me a degree in structural engineering or a program management diploma. To quote screenwriter William Goldman (who wrote Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Princess Bride, Marathon Man and a few others:

SCREENPLAY IS STRUCTURE

A considerable number of the people who went through electrical engineering with me had no real aptitude, but took the course to get away from the subjective marking and political agendas in the arts.

Alright, sir—I’ve been working on a musical, and here is its opening number. If you want to criticize my technical unsophistication, go ahead—I’ve been doing this with no formal training. Tell me what you think:

The tale fades in to ravens perched on a prisonyard gallows still being set up as the workmen whistle placidly, even as a cowled prisoner, face completely shrouded, watches them work from his barred upper-story cell window in impassive silence. Finally, the music starts in full as he begins to sing, as the images flitting past carry us backwards and forwards in time.

Convict: Well, we all have a face that we hide away forever
Quick cut to guards leading his faceless form down the hall.
And we take them out and show ourselves when everyone has gone
He glances at his own reflection through a puddle on the floor.
Some are satin some are steel, some are silk and some are leather.
Still covered, the scene shifts to show him testifying at his own trial.
They're the faces of the stranger--but we love to try them on.
At this, two gusts of flame flickers into view from out of his hooded shadows.

Bishop, testifying on the stand: Yes, he did lead a girl astray who did disregard the danger
Convict, contemptuously: Love, it doesn't make you cautious, nor does it make you wise.
Pregnant mother, from out of the crowd: Tom, you're a fiend--you're a dog within the manger!
Tom turns to her, allowing us to at least see the smile across his lips.
Tom: Then it shall be my pleasure, now, to pierce you with my eyes....
At this, sparks erupt from the cowl, even as the woman tumbles back in instant miscarriage and the guards knock Tom down before hustling him away.

Tom, merrily: Now don't be afraid, my friends, to sin
If the urge is strong; just don't try to win.
Bishop: I've refused, and so have others too.
Tom: You're quite rare--your kind is few....

The scene shifts back to Tom in his cell, visited by the Bishop, who's offering him Last Rites.
Bishop: Once, you used to believe you were such a great romancer.
Tom, disgusted, eyes folded: Then I visited a woman in a form she could not recognize.
When I pressed for a seduction, but said too much within my answer
Quick cut to a shadowy flashback of a smirky smile.
Bishop: Was it then that she recalled the stranger, and it led to her her demise...?
Another quick cut to a girl's gasp, a knife, a brief struggle, and a scream, to which Tom in the present grimly nods.

Bishop, kindly: Well, we all fall in love but we disregard the danger.
Tom, placing his hands behind his head: We may share a lot of secrets, there's some we never tell.
Bishop: Why were you so surprised when she finally saw the stranger?
Quick cut to show Tom's face getting angry.
Have you ever really, truly, seen the stranger in yourself...?
At this, Tom turns to spit a stream of sizzling venom at the floor before looking up, glaring and growling, at the Bishop, who calmly returns his gaze, before getting up to leave as Tom watches through a barred window.

B strolling down the hall: Against all your remorse don't try to win.
Someone does repent, every now and then.
If I've done it, why can't someone else?
It's not too late, even for yourself....
Cut to Tom's half-shadowed face, looking grim and moody as slumping, he turns down to look at his still-sizzling venom.

The scene is now Tom on the scaffold before his execution, giving his last words.
You may never understand how the stranger is inspired (Quick cut to a heckler in the audience.)
But he isn't always evil and he is not always wrong.
At this, Tom turns the heckler's way as the sparks erupt from the cowl, and as their eyes lock, the heckler's pupils literally start to burn.
Though you may drown in good intentions, you will never quench the fire
You'll all succumb to your desire when the stranger comes along....

And with that, the trapdoor swings open, the noose tightens, and Tom is left swinging for all the crowd to see--and cheer, even as we cut briefly back to the heckler, slumped on the ground, hand over his eye sockets, which are still smoking. As he still swings, the music fades, the crowd vanishes to denote the passage of time. At last, it ends as it started, with ravens perched on the gallows, only with whistling workmen taking them down, instead of setting them up before we fade out.
 
=Noitartst;1087131Whedon’s view of female empowerment comes at male expense, making them look weak compared to women.

I think Joss portrays women who are empowered, AND men who are strong. Just because in a particular scene it's a woman who gains control and leads the troops doesn't mean that the rest of the time the men are a bunch of puppets. When Willow takes over in WotW, it's entirely appropriate. Giles had recently been impaled and needed to get to a hospital. Spike was not in a position to lead at that point, most notably because he was not in a position of authority and Buffy was the only one who implicitly trusted him at that point. Obviously Willow trusted him to a great extent as she gave him critical tasks to perform, but the gang as a whole was not prepared to follow his lead. Understandably so.

The point isn’t that I object to a woman taking charge, it’s the how, and it strikes me that Willow wouldn’t because that’s not Willow’s style. Think about, if she did, it would be far angrier, more emotional, and with less sense of control. So why do it thus? I think it jives with Joss’s empowerment theme, at the expense of characterization, and as such, I find it a sideswipe, albeit a clever one.

I'm confused, what exactly is a "side swipe?" The implication is that it comes out of nowhere or is unexpected; how is it that a woman taking leadership in a show that essentially features women in heroic roles qualifies as such?

Don't forget: Xander saved the world in season 6. In fact, he had to talk down Willow, a WOMAN, from destroying it. A lot of people actually take issue with this--they say it detracts from the feminist message of the show, and I disagree profoundly. But my point is that Joss does not reserve moments of heroic triumph for his female characters, only.

Joss seemed to enjoy putting Angel in situations that made the audience laugh at him for the sake of laughing at him, and I just found that tedious.

In Ats when the more humanistic traits of Angel, a brooding vampire, come to the forefront, it's funny. I think it's just played for a soft chuckle in the midst of a dark show, nothing more. Ultimately it's not meant--I believe--to be somehow mocking Angel, and certainly not men in general.

Oh, and by the way, what do you you think of “The Girl in Question”? Spike and and Angel were ridiculous in the episode(and dare you say out of character?)—ever seen one where Buffy was comparably so?

Yeah. When Buffy is "gaga" about a guy, she is very silly. It reminds us that she's a young woman, at heart. A lot of seasons 1 and 4 in particular feature her in this light. Angel and Spike take on the more traditionally feminine "giddy" roles in TGiQ, as they fight each other for the promise of someone who they both know, deep down, is attempting to move on. I like that the two brooding, dark vampires are given characteristics that are usually reserved for women in fiction; the writers are comfortable mixing stereotypical gender roles and that is fun to watch. But, yes, Buffy herself assumes this role very many times in the series. Just not in that episode.

And by the way, ironically, I find Spike to be the only great character in the Buffyverse, given how overcomes various forms of masculine impairment. Joss liked to kick him down, but unlike his other puching bags, Spike had a remarkable resilience, and that made him fascinating

Well, I have to agree with you there! And, for me, another example of that balance I was talking about before.
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
Agree with everything... up to Spike ;)
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This Year's Girl
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dexeded
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I'd just started watching Buffy that season, and that scene left me shocked, and showed to me clearer than ever that Whedon's view of female empowerment comes at male expense, making them look weak compared to women. Look, Whedon's even willing to dedicate a full episode to make Spike and Angel look silly in Angel's "Tthe Girl in Question."

Seriously? I mean, forget opinion your just being outright sexist.
You haven't watched the show, and you start with Season 6, you don't know the characters, you don't know what their like, you don't know what they've done and, what, halfway through episode 1 of season 6 you decide the show is overtly feminist because Willow is leading not Giles or Spike?!?

How can you make a statement like that if you don't know the characters history that got them to that point, there's 5 years of character development that got them to that point.

If because Willow is leading is your answer, that answer is plainly sexist, no hiding it.

The point isn't that I object to a woman taking charge, it's the how, and it strikes me that Willow wouldn't because that's not Willow's style. Think about, if she did, it would be far angrier, more emotional, and with less sense of control. So why do it thus? I think it jives with Joss's empowerment theme, at the expense of characterization, and as such, I find it a sideswipe, albeit a clever one.

Why?

I'd like examples of why you don't think Willow would be leader, you've made a few statements now that have no basis in the show I watched, so I'm not sure you've seen all the episodes.
Willow has taken over as second leader since season 2 of the show, with numerous examples - see my previous post for the examples and nighshades post adding a further example from the Dark Age. Willow has taken the leader role many times.

Everything about her characterization leads to Willow taking charges in season 6, so please give references to the show that say otherwise?


You don't? Well, I think Joss's feminist MO is like arsenic poison, something designed to kill by degress, not immediately. I don't seem to be the only one who's picked up on Joss's attitude, though; take a look at Always Bangel's post. In it, Bangel says:
"¦Joss Whedon does seem to have some major issues with masculinity in general. I don't think that's reflected through most of the series, and it certainly isn't on Angel (although he didn't have a huge presence on that show), but there are a few episodes where there are some very anti-guy messages being portrayed, and his commentary on a few of them backs that up.
Joss seems to really believe that every male in the world has some sort of "beast" inside him, and that's a notion I completely disagree with. In fact, I think he gets pretty sexist himself at times in that belief. But to be fair to Joss, I can only think of two occasions where that's been thrust in the viewer's face. S3's "Beauty and the Beasts" is one of them, and S4's "Wild at Heart" is the other. "Wild at Heart" in particular, I found really insulting, actually. The commentary that Whedon provided for that episode, if you'd reversed it and had him talking about women instead of men, would have been derided as sexist and degrading by anyone who heard it. It was pretty disgusting, to be honest.
No, Joss doesn't often thrust his prejudice in my face, but I sure don't like it when he does. I may be more sensitive to it than others, but I "˜m not alone to complain about this.
Oh, and I disagree with Bangel about his prejudice not showing up on Angel. No, it's not as prominent, given the shows' many differneces, including thematics, but it's in the background, his wiliingness to knock Angel for his vanity, but not Buffy, who's a cheerleader, for crying out loud (Cordelia, of course, but never Buffy"”please, give me a reverse example, if you can).

Buffy tried out for cheerleading when she was 16, it lasts the whole of 5 minuets, Buffy was constantly mocked for her vanity. In 'I Robot... you Jane' she gets electrocuted and after getting herself back together she is worried about her hair - the rest of the gang look at her like she's an idiot.
There are numerous jokes like that over the course of the show, just as there was on Angel.

Oh, and by the way, what do you you think of "The Girl in Question"? Spike and and Angel were ridiculous in the episode(and dare you say out of character?)"”ever seen one where Buffy was comparably so?

Yep:

Never Kill a Boy on the First Date - Buffy puts her slayer duties to one side and obsesses over a boy
bewitched, bothered and Bewildered - Under a love spell, tries to sexually seduce Xander
Something Blue - Love spell between her and Spike
Where the Wild Things Are - Buffy and Riley enter a sex marathon feeding off sexual energy
Gone - Uses Spike for sex all season, especially in 'Gone' where she gets enthralled in the idea of being gone and seems to loose all inhibitions about sex with Spike
Dead Things - Buffy has sex with Spike in the Bronze above her friends heads
Him - Love spell, tries to sexually seduce a student
Season 8 - Fantasizes about Daniel Craig in Speedos
Season 8 - Fantasizes about a threesome with Angel and Spike
Season 8 - Has sex all over the universe with Angel

These are the ones I can remember off the top of my head, Buffy was made to look like a silly horny girl a number of times, just has Spike and Angel were - and they should be, like I said before if it's being done to both sexes it's all good in my book.

Oh, he does, but his jokes on women are more character, or stereotype-specific. With men, he makes broader, negative jokes; surely I'm not the only one that's noticed this.
And by the way, ironically, I find Spike to be the only great character in the Buffyverse, given how overcomes various forms of masculine impairment. Joss liked to kick him down, but unlike his other puching bags, Spike had a remarkable resilience, and that made him fascinating in a way Buffy's character never was. (I'm pretty usre fan polls will generally support this.)

wow. Spike is the character you see that overcomes masculine impairment...
Spike, Drusillas-bitch-boy, the clothes stealing, clothes smelling, photo-stalker-collecting, Season-6-bitch-boy, attempted-rapist, season-7-weak-fighter, season-7-yes-man, the one character that follows Buffys every whim without question because he doesn't want to disagree with her. Spike, Loves self declared fool? He's the character that overcomes the masculine impairments?

I think that you're not focused on attitude; if attitude bothered you more, you'd start to see things a bit different. J.K. Rowling, for instant, is what I "˜d classify as a post-feminist, and wouldn't have minded Hermione to be more assertive, because she was so smart and competent.

Ironically, Rowling, at one point, Rowling said no one had ever asked if Hermione was getting killed of, and that surprised her, like it did me. It seems even well-written characters need vulnerability for people to care about them, and Hermione, despite being all-girl, hadn't much.

I don't believe that at all, if it's true I'd like a source. I love Harry Potter read them all as they came out, and EVERYONE was speculating that Hermione would be the character that dies, it was EVERYWHERE around the time of the last book.

Not to mention Hermione was constantly the leader of her group, she was the one that often came up with and implemented a plan, example off the top of my head is the Polyjuice potion, she gets hair off girl she wants to become before even telling the other about the plan, or the time turner in Book 3, when Dumbledoor locks them in the room, Harry has no clue what their doing, Hermione leads them through that. Hermione lead that group and Harry did all the big fighting because of his destiny and all that.


As for BtVS, I do partly agree with you in regards to sloppy story telling in BtVS, the show was enjoyable when it was telling a good story, and not when it was serving as a soap box for a particular ideology that happened to be trendy at the time of writing, a writing style that is akin to propaganda at worse and a cheap writing gimmick designed to translate into trendoid following viewers/ fast cash, at best.
This was the entire point of BtVS, the whole show was a metaphor, everything was a metaphor, it was constantly on a soapbox as it should have been because it was putting message out there and addressing topics that other shows were afraid to address.

To me, the best Buffy season was the sixth one, you know? Buffy fought depression, I was fighting depression, then, and the criticisms I've been speaking of were particular miniscule, then.

Maybe this is your problem, you don't identify with any of the other metaphors in the show, other people do. For some the High School is hell metaphor is the strongest, for others it the bad first time sex or how daunting starting college is, are the strongest.
The difference is, if season 6 is the season you like most because you relate to it, thats why you see less flaws in that season not because there are actually less flaws.
Season 6 is often voted the most disliked season among polls I've seen on here and other places.
 
E
EffyStonem
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This Year's Girl
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Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
Season 6 is my least favorite
L
Living Dead Boy
According to a recent BB poll, season 6 is most people's favorite, mine included. :) But I agree with everything else you said.
SlayerFest
SlayerFest
thank.you.
Don't forget: Xander saved the world in season 6. In fact, he had to talk down Willow, a WOMAN, from destroying it. A lot of people actually take issue with this--they say it detracts from the feminist message of the show, and I disagree profoundly. But my point is that Joss does not reserve moments of heroic triumph for his female characters, only.

I forgot to say stuff on this part of the post. This is a perfect example of the ridiculousness of your statement [MENTION=11091]Noitartst[/MENTION] that men were given big broad stereotypes and women were not.
Another is that a scored women will always turn to vengeance, or obsess over a boy, they are a recurring theme on the show that your just ignoring to make the show suit your idea.
Both sexes have the stereotypes, and as long as both have them, I can't see a problem as stereotypes are based in truth.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
funny: we actually tend to agree on a lot when Spike isn't the subject!!!!
Pike
Pike
[No message]
I can almost see your point. Your point being that if people want equality then why does it seemed to be out-weighed by those who want it or need it. For example why is there is Black History Month in the United States or a Women’s Month or or Day, or “Homosexual Week” at Disney World. When the answer is, there needs to be! Nearly every subgroup that is listed and tends to get additional treatment or spotlight is receiving it now because at one point they didn’t. I am trying to keep this based on feminist fiction and less on politics. It would be a slippery slope.

This could be approached from many angels. For starters, many feminist fiction does have a masculine character who seems to be the cliché of all bad masculinity. However, there are people out there who are just like these people. Women still continue to struggle out there in the real world.

In addition to this, it is art. It’s fiction. There is a market. There are no rules to art, or fiction. If there is a market to women for feminists-fiction, then it’s going to be made. I don’t see how any show out there isn’t going to offend someone. “This show doesn’t have enough minorities” or “This show offends my beliefs” or “How come women are always right in commercials and never the man.”

If feminist shows aren’t your cup of tea then don’t watch them. Don’t worry about what the media says is a good show, find your own show.

I personally love shows like Buffy or Girls. I don’t think I once considered it to be sexist that Willow tried to take over as the new leader when Buffy was gone (in reference to what you said). I saw her as the most qualified. I never really saw the show as a feminist show. The main character is a female, but the show is very diverse in characters and situations.
 
We actually never had a real stereotypical bad jerk character in the 'verse, did we? You know, the whole, "Hey baby go make me a steak" kind of stereotype that you usually see?

Only Jayne in Firefly really, that I can think of.
 
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