My apologies, by the way, for not replying immediately.
I think Joss portrays women who are empowered, AND men who are strong. Just because in a particular scene it's a woman who gains control and leads the troops doesn't mean that the rest of the time the men are a bunch of puppets. When Willow takes over in WotW, it's entirely appropriate. Giles had recently been impaled and needed to get to a hospital. Spike was not in a position to lead at that point, most notably because he was not in a position of authority and Buffy was the only one who implicitly trusted him at that point. Obviously Willow trusted him to a great extent as she gave him critical tasks to perform, but the gang as a whole was not prepared to follow his lead. Understandably so.
I'm confused, what exactly is a "side swipe?" The implication is that it comes out of nowhere or is unexpected; how is it that a woman taking leadership in a show that essentially features women in heroic roles qualifies as such?
It’s all about the how, whatever-gender-you-are. Bangel cited evidence supporting me that I didn’t know of, and you didn’t respond to, that he was essentially sexist, and dare I say that’s tinged his portrayals. You don’t seem to notice that the portrayal made the guys look weak in a big way.
I think you're just focused on Willow in the scene, but my focus is broader.
Don't forget: Xander saved the world in season 6. In fact, he had to talk down Willow, a WOMAN, from destroying it. A lot of people actually take issue with this--they say it detracts from the feminist message of the show, and I disagree profoundly. But my point is that Joss does not reserve moments of heroic triumph for his female characters, only.
Well, it's quite hip today to portray fairly unmasculine men as heroic, somehow. The term, I believe, is "beta males." I don't like Xander, really, and I didn't like that scene, but I think it's more a case of my personal prejudice than anything else. Season 6 was my favorite, but that part isn't one that sticks out, and don't feel like criticizing it.
It just dovetails with the theme of role reversals, really--a feminist fave.
In Ats when the more humanistic traits of Angel, a brooding vampire, come to the forefront, it's funny. I think it's just played for a soft chuckle in the midst of a dark show, nothing more. Ultimately it's not meant--I believe--to be somehow mocking Angel, and certainly not men in general.
It was one of the things that I hated about the series, really, and I wondered why they kept doing it. Never really added anything, and actually took away. Thematic dissonance, though, was the main thing I hated, though. WHedon seemed to think the show was about persistence in the face of darkness, but me, I got the sense it was about making tradeoffs, and letting the darkness warp you in return for something. That, and a heavy sense of guilt; when it was cancelled, I concluded it was high time, als.
When Buffy is "gaga" about a guy, she is very silly. It reminds us that she's a young woman, at heart. A lot of seasons 1 and 4 in particular feature her in this light. Angel and Spike take on the more traditionally feminine "giddy" roles in TGiQ, as they fight each other for the promise of someone who they both know, deep down, is attempting to move on. I like that the two brooding, dark vampires are given characteristics that are usually reserved for women in fiction; the writers are comfortable mixing stereotypical gender roles and that is fun to watch. But, yes, Buffy herself assumes this role very many times in the series. Just not in that episode.
Well, I made them look abjectly silly in the process, and does neither of their characters justice. In this case, I think, you seem to be applauding, even defending, bullying.
As for Buffy, name me one episode. Abjectly silly. No magic in sight. No dreams. No arrogant one-lingers.
Well, I have to agree with you there! And, for me, another example of that balance I was talking about before.
Not balance--nuance.
Seriously? I mean, forget opinion your just being outright sexist.
You haven't watched the show, and you start with Season 6, you don't know the characters, you don't know what their like, you don't know what they've done and, what, halfway through episode 1 of season 6 you decide the show is overtly feminist because Willow is leading not Giles or Spike?!?
How can you make a statement like that if you don't know the characters history that got them to that point, there's 5 years of character development that got them to that point.
If because Willow is leading is your answer, that answer is plainly sexist, no hiding it.
You're wrong, my friend, and quite possibly because I confused you; my apologies.
As for Willow, I've really no problem with her as acting leader. It makes sense, and have nothing to say about it, but I do have something to say about one scene a the end of the fifth season.
I started watching at the beginning of the fifth season, got to the end, and found that a glaring sideswipe. Watched the previous seasons soon after, and nothing changed my opinion about this.
Why?
I'd like examples of why you don't think Willow would be leader, you've made a few statements now that have no basis in the show I watched, so I'm not sure you've seen all the episodes.
Seen the first six seasons, little of the seventh, and none of the subsequent comics.
Willow has taken over as second leader since season 2 of the show, with numerous examples - see my previous post for the examples and nighshades post adding a further example from the Dark Age. Willow has taken the leader role many times.
Everything about her characterization leads to Willow taking charges in season 6, so please give references to the show that say otherwise?
WIllow as leader at the start of the 6th season makes perfect sense, friend--never disputed it.
Buffy tried out for cheerleading when she was 16, it lasts the whole of 5 minuets, Buffy was constantly mocked for her vanity. In 'I Robot... you Jane' she gets electrocuted and after getting herself back together she is worried about her hair - the rest of the gang look at her like she's an idiot.
I don't remember that specific moment, but it's possible you're right. I'd hafta see it again. WIth ANgel, the jokes mastly came as just silly, but with Buffy, whether she makes a mistake or not, the audience has greater empathy for her than for Angel, not the least because she's a superior character.
There are numerous jokes like that over the course of the show, just as there was on Angel.
Yep:
Never Kill a Boy on the First Date - Buffy puts her slayer duties to one side and obsesses over a boy
bewitched, bothered and Bewildered - Under a love spell, tries to sexually seduce Xander
Something Blue - Love spell between her and Spike
Where the Wild Things Are - Buffy and Riley enter a sex marathon feeding off sexual energy
Gone - Uses Spike for sex all season, especially in 'Gone' where she gets enthralled in the idea of being gone and seems to loose all inhibitions about sex with Spike
Dead Things - Buffy has sex with Spike in the Bronze above her friends heads
Him - Love spell, tries to sexually seduce a student
Season 8 - Fantasizes about Daniel Craig in Speedos
Season 8 - Fantasizes about a threesome with Angel and Spike
Season 8 - Has sex all over the universe with Angel
These are the ones I can remember off the top of my head, Buffy was made to look like a silly horny girl a number of times, just has Spike and Angel were - and they should be, like I said before if it's being done to both sexes it's all good in my book.
One episode. Abjectly silly. No magic in sight. No dreams. No arrogant one-lingers. I haven't seen all of these examples, and none from the 8th, but "Gone" does seem the closest to fit the bill, but not quite. As I said, I empathized strongly with her ordeal in the 6th season, and her behavior wasn't a sideswipe. Hey, I was once messed up bad too, and strong sexual impulse was part 'n parcel.
Wow. Spike is the character you see that overcomes masculine impairment...
Spike, Drusillas-bitch-boy, the clothes stealing, clothes smelling, photo-stalker-collecting, Season-6-bitch-boy, attempted-rapist, season-7-weak-fighter, season-7-yes-man, the one character that follows Buffys every whim without question because he doesn't want to disagree with her. Spike, Loves self declared fool? He's the character that overcomes the masculine impairments?
As I said, he's Whedon's punching bag, but he's his favorite because he keeps getting up off the ground, and what's inspiring. He's persistent, and that's his most inspiring trait; makes me want to be more like him, in that regard, and he's the only one that was able to get under Buffy's skin, really; not something even Angel could pull off.
Spike's got some great moments, you have to admit, and it comes from trying so hard. Yes, he almost raped Buffy, but he got her to move beyond it because of that effort. I'm not advocating rape, but if you can keep the audience on your side despite that?
To me, Spike's the definition of overcoming.
I don't believe that at all, if it's true I'd like a source. I love Harry Potter read them all as they came out, and EVERYONE was speculating that Hermione would be the character that dies, it was EVERYWHERE around the time of the last book.
Not to mention Hermione was constantly the leader of her group, she was the one that often came up with and implemented a plan, example off the top of my head is the Polyjuice potion, she gets hair off girl she wants to become before even telling the other about the plan, or the time turner in Book 3, when Dumbledoor locks them in the room, Harry has no clue what their doing, Hermione leads them through that. Hermione lead that group and Harry did all the big fighting because of his destiny and all that.
I wish I had the quote, and in the story, It's like she's truling hard not to be the leader, though a lot of the time, she logically is, given her competence, and all.
As for BtVS, I do partly agree with you in regards to sloppy story telling in BtVS, the show was enjoyable when it was telling a good story, and not when it was serving as a soap box for a particular ideology that happened to be trendy at the time of writing, a writing style that is akin to propaganda at worse and a cheap writing gimmick designed to translate into trendoid following viewers/ fast cash, at best.
This was the entire point of BtVS, the whole show was a metaphor, everything was a metaphor, it was constantly on a soapbox as it should have been because it was putting message out there and addressing topics that other shows were afraid to address.
Maybe this is your problem, you don't identify with any of the other metaphors in the show, other people do. For some the High School is hell metaphor is the strongest, for others it the bad first time sex or how daunting starting college is, are the strongest.
The difference is, if season 6 is the season you like most because you relate to it, thats why you see less flaws in that season not because there are actually less flaws.
Season 6 is often voted the most disliked season among polls I've seen on here and other places.
You might have a point here.
