Question What if Bangel don't end up together? What then?

[Kean]

I agree that Buffy and Angel will never be friends. To much has happened.

My question is; when does it get to a point where you just give up and stop trying?

That's the whole point: you never give up. You never stop trying. It's never over.

That probably makes your eyes roll back in your head. But that is just what B/A is. It's what it has always been. And it looks like that's what they will be for some time to come.

You think B/A couldn't be less right for each other, but for me they are exactly perfect for each other. No one makes them as happy or make them feel as fulfilled as they make each other feel. However, their tragedy is that as perfect as they are together, they never get to belong to each other. In fact, their duty, lives and destiny ensure that they can't. Perhaps, shouldn't. And yet, none of it has changed how they feel in their hearts about each other.

That isn't a story that appeals to you. Fair enough. But there sure are a lot of us who are invested in it. So I say long may it continue.

🙂

 

[Flannen]

My question is; when does it get to a point where you just give up and stop trying? Buffy and Angel has tried to be together. What has happened? Pain, destruction, and loss followed by crippling regret and guilt. The way I see it there are no two people meant more not to be together than these two. Angel killed her father, respectively. They almost destroyed the world together. I feel like that's a mood killer.

If they were to try to be together again, I'd be very disappointed. I think they should have learned their lesson. They're not morons; they're dreamers I get that - but at what point do you just give up? Throw in the towel, or whatever. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. EVER.

As Kean said, they don't give up. And why? Well, for once it's actually Spike I turn to for this one:

Love isn't brains, children, it's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will.

Do you think that's easy to just give up? Ignore and forget about? It's not an easy lesson to learn, if indeed there is actually any lesson for it. For Buffy and Angel to do as you think they should and forget all of this, throw the towel in and give it all up, they'd have to use their brains. And: love isn't brains.

 

[InsaneMystic]

As Kean said, they don't give up. And why? Well, for once it's actually Spike I turn to for this one:

Love isn't brains, children, it's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will.

A Bangel quoting Spike to make her point, and a Spuffy replying "Spike is so wrong about that". Ah, the excellent irony. 😉

 

[Icarium]

That's the whole point: you never give up. You never stop trying. It's never over.

You know what, this might sound rude, but personally I don't care if "Buffy and Angel 4eva" is written in the stars or not. Many people have died as a direct result of this relationship. At some point Buffy and Angel would need to face the music and decide they have no right whatsoever to repeatedly risk other people's lives in the pursuit of their own happiness. It was bad enough it took them so long to figure it out in S3, resuming their relationship now would be like dancing on the graves of of all the people who died because of Twangel. If the only thing at stake was Buffy and Angel's potential disappointment, I couldn't really care less if they gave up or not. Risking other people's lives is a completely different ball game. So I am having a world of trouble seeing this "never say die" attitude as anything but wilful blindness and total lack of responsibility.


That said, if they do reunite. I suspect will enjoy it quite a bit on the "so bad it's good" level and for the reaction of the Spuffies.

 

[Kean]

You know what, this might sound rude, but personally I don't care if "Buffy and Angel 4eva" is written in the stars or not. Many people have died as a direct result of this relationship. At some point Buffy and Angel would need to face the music and decide they have no right whatsoever to repeatedly risk other people's lives in the pursuit of their own happiness. It was bad enough it took them so long to figure it out in S3, resuming their relationship now would be like dancing on the graves of of all the people who died because of Twangel. If the only thing at stake was Buffy and Angel's potential disappointment, I couldn't really care less if they gave up or not. Risking other people's lives is a completely different ball game. So I am having a world of trouble seeing this "never say die" attitude as anything but wilful blindness and total lack of responsibility.


That said, if they do reunite. I suspect will enjoy it quite a bit on the "so bad it's good" level and for the reaction of the Spuffies.

When I say they will never give up, I don't mean that I think Buffy and Angel are actively contriving to find a way to be together. What I mean is that the desire to be together and the knowledge that they are "it" for each other will never end. They will never reach that conclusion or state of mind. They will never resign themselves to the "end" of them. They will always want to be together.

However, for all the reasons that you have noted above, and probably a few hundred more, they will never actually seek that reunion out. I don't feel they ever have consciously tried to find a way to be together. I have never felt it was a goal they worked at. However, it is an opportunity they pounce on when presented to them.

Like I've said a thousand times, the only time we will ever see them together purposely and not because of some twist of fate or tragedy, is at the very end of the verse. And that ain't coming any time soon.

 

[Dagenspear]

Ah, how the comics have created a whole new line of horror and tragedy in the Bangel storyline of the Buffyverse'. A storyline that, in the canon of the show, ended in S3 of ANGEL, and S6 of BUFFY.

Let's all just sit back and watch how this one works out...

SPOILER!

*whisper* It doesn't.

Seriously though... If true love doesn't "work out", then I got a secret for you, it ain't true love. It's just two delusional people trying to make it work because everyone says that it won't. It's truly ridiculous. And kinda sad.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=10219]Kairos[/MENTION]

In the same way that Angel can't in good conscience turn himself human without the Shanshu, Buffy and Angel can't choose each other until and unless the PTBs set it up for them.

I agree with the first part. But I don't think B/A are waiting for the PTB's to set it up for them, I think it has more to do with them waiting for the point when the choice isn't their mission/duty/callings or their happiness. As long as Buffy and Angel belong to the world of fighting, they will never belong to each other. And they know that.

 

[white avenger]

As much "it" as Buffy and Angle are for each other, at some point they are going to have to face the fact that any relationship that they might share is going to be severely limited. This has been proven, not once, but several times throughout their story line. As Wes told Angel, "Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinatum percent of the human race." have to settle for less than absolute, total happiness. And just about anyone very much past their past their teens will agree.

Buffy will always love Angel. Nothing could, or should, change that. And, likewise, Angel will always love Buffy. In and of itself, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong or unnatural about that. What would make it wrong and unnatural would be it one or both of them used that as an excuse to never love anyone else. That is love perverted, love restricted, and love stagnated. It is what should be joy twisted and perverted into something that would ultimately destroy both of them.

 

[Kean]

As much "it" as Buffy and Angle are for each other, at some point they are going to have to face the fact that any relationship that they might share is going to be severely limited. This has been proven, not once, but several times throughout their story line. As Wes told Angel, "Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinatum percent of the human race." have to settle for less than absolute, total happiness. And just about anyone very much past their past their teens will agree.

Buffy will always love Angel. Nothing could, or should, change that. And, likewise, Angel will always love Buffy. In and of itself, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong or unnatural about that. What would make it wrong and unnatural would be it one or both of them used that as an excuse to never love anyone else. That is love perverted, love restricted, and love stagnated. It is what should be joy twisted and perverted into something that would ultimately destroy both of them.

Neither of them have used that as an excuse to not love again. The both of them have gone out and sought new relationships. The fact that they haven't found something that surpasses what they had, or has lasted, doesn't mean they aren't open to new love. I think they have both been pretty clear that they are open to new experiences with new people.

 

[white avenger]

Neither of them have used that as an excuse to not love again. The both of them have gone out and sought new relationships. The fact that they haven't found something that surpasses what they had, or has lasted, doesn't mean they aren't open to new love. I think they have both been pretty clear that they are open to new experiences with new people.

And once again, we agree on a Bangel topic (this is getting frightening). I'm merely saying that they both have to accept the fact that, barring a miracle, (like Joss actually agreeing to an actual happy ending for someone in his universe) these two crazy kids are just gonna have to accept the fact that their ship has been dry docked and may never be launched again.

 

[Kean]

And once again, we agree on a Bangel topic (this is getting frightening). I'm merely saying that they both have to accept the fact that, barring a miracle, (like Joss actually agreeing to an actual happy ending for someone in his universe) these two crazy kids are just gonna have to accept the fact that their ship has been dry docked and may never be launched again.

But that's my point: they do know that. However, that knowledge does not mean they do not hope. And that my Sir, is not something that will ever stop. I can' think of two characters in the world who have less reason to hope for anything, yet dedicate themselves to it nonetheless.

 

[white avenger]

But that's my point: they do know that. However, that knowledge does not mean they do not hope. And that my Sir, is not something that will ever stop. I can' think of two characters in the world who have less reason to hope for anything, yet dedicate themselves to it nonetheless.

Well, hope springs eternal. And faith will always be rewarded in the end.(Giles left her the house, the money, and the horses) But when you wish upon a star, it does make a difference who you are. If you are a Slayer loving a vampire cursed to never know total happiness, you had better start seriously considering a viable Plan B. And maybe even a Plan C. Cause, as we both know, Joss just purely hates those "happily ever after" scenarios. Even "reasonably content for the moment" is pushing his tolerance level to the limit.

 

[Kean]

Cause, as we both know, Joss just purely hates those "happily ever after" scenarios. Even "reasonably content for the moment" is pushing his tolerance level to the limit.

Not necessarily. The only Whedon work we have seen given an actual ending is Dollhouse and in that he gave the "meant to be together" couple a satisfying ending. He even gave Echo and Paul a way in which they could be together. Neither couple's ending was idyllic or your traditional "Happily ever After", but is was a genuine pay off for years of duty, struggle and fighting that had kept them apart.

I would happily take something akin to what Paul and Echo got for Buffy and Angel. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will be something along those lines that B/A will get.

 

[white avenger]

Not necessarily. The only Whedon work we have seen given an actual ending is Dollhouse and in that he gave the "meant to be together" couple a satisfying ending. He even gave Echo and Paul a way in which they could be together. Neither couple's ending was idyllic or your traditional "Happily ever After", but is was a genuine pay off for years of duty, struggle and fighting that had kept them apart.

I would happily take something akin to what Paul and Echo got for Buffy and Angel. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will be something along those lines that B/A will get.

Some might consider the ending of Season 8 to be pretty much that sort of ending. Buffy realizes that, though she may love Angel, she can no longer trust him, and his killing Giles didn't do very much to lay the foundation for any sort of reconciliation. On the contrary, it only reinforced what both Buffy and Angel have known for years, whether or not they chose to accept the fact: Buffy and Angel are two parts of a formula for pain, death, and destruction, usually for innocent bystanders. If it is, and I emphasize IF, then it's tragic, even when viewed through Spuffy colored glasses, and, believe it or not, not the ending that I would have chosen for them.

Hang onto that hope and faith thing. It may yet pay off in the end.

But not as long as Spike's still in the picture.

(Sorry, Miss K. but I just can't agree with you too much. I've got a reputation to protect)

 

[VisionGirl]

Seriously though... If true love doesn't "work out", then I got a secret for you, it ain't true love. It's just two delusional people trying to make it work because everyone says that it won't. It's truly ridiculous. And kinda sad.

I disagree. In both these works and real life, someone can be truly in love, and just not have it work out for some reason or another.

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]: Buffy and Angel are two parts of a formula for pain, death, and destruction, usually for innocent bystanders.

But that's not all they are. And the bottom line is that most Bangels feel that they have the possibility of overcoming that...someday.

 

[Kean]

Some might consider the ending of Season 8 to be pretty much that sort of ending.

And then there is the rest of us. 😀

You can have your sad, sorry broken Bangel. I like mine better. 🙂

 

[Reddygirl]

I'm a Spuffy so no surprise I don't wish for a Bangel reunion.

Having said that I'm very aware of the fact that Joss might have set up Twilight not to kill Bangel for good but to reconstruct it as a different type of romance.

Imo, the idea of Buffy and Angel being fated for one another is dead as dust. I don't think we'll be seeing them pine for one another. I'm pretty sure we'll get some messages that both truly believe and maybe even want their relationship to be over.

And that would be the set up for Buffy and Angel meeting in the future and falling in love again, but this time there will be no hint of "destiny" or PtB. They would be just like any other couple in the Verse who have fallen in love. There would be idealization of each other. Imo, Joss would make it clear Buffy and Angel are stearing the ship and not being propelled by any kind of Power for any kind of reason.

So while I believe it's entirely possible for Bangel to be woven into some new love pattern, I'm also pretty sure the old model of "we can only love each other; no one else will ever do" is broken for good.

Here's my question for Bangels: If Joss would resurrect Bangel as an "ordinary" romance (and of course there is no such thing when you're in love) that is no more special than Willow/?, Dawn/Xander, Riley/Sam, would you be okay with that? Or is the main draw of Bangel its being "fated"?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[Kairos]

[MENTION=10219]Kairos[/MENTION]

I agree with the first part. But I don't think B/A are waiting for the PTB's to set it up for them, I think it has more to do with them waiting for the point when the choice isn't their mission/duty/callings or their happiness. As long as Buffy and Angel belong to the world of fighting, they will never belong to each other. And they know that.

I was kind of using the PTBs as shorthand for the same idea. A world that didn't need Buffy and Angel fighting would be a world in which they could be together. Angel might see that as a thumbs-up from the PTBs, Buffy might see it as a random stroke of fortune, but both are waiting (or hoping in vain) for the same thing.

Here's my question for Bangels: If Joss would resurrect Bangel as an "ordinary" romance (and of course there is no such thing when you're in love) that is no more special than Willow/?, Dawn/Xander, Riley/Sam, would you be okay with that? Or is the main draw of Bangel its being "fated"?

For me the draw was never the "fated" aspect because I honestly don't think that's even a component of their relationship. If anything, it's the opposite - they're star-crossed, "the love that can never be", which is like being anti-fated. Many of us were dismayed even by Angel's "There's a reason I loved you from the moment I saw you..." speech in S8 #33, because it took away from the organic beginnings of their love.

That said, I'd be okay with most anything Joss wants to do with B/A, but I don't think it's possible for their romance to turn ordinary (even from an outside perspective) unless both of their memories were wiped and they started over from scratch. Whatever happens now, they have an extraordinary past behind them, and anything built on that is going to be lightyears away from what Riley & Sam or Xander & Dawn share.

 

[white avenger]

And that would be the set up for Buffy and Angel meeting in the future and falling in love again, but this time there will be no hint of "destiny" or PtB. They would be just like any other couple in the Verse who have fallen in love. There would be idealization of each other. Imo, Joss would make it clear Buffy and Angel are stearing the ship and not being propelled by any kind of Power for any kind of reason.

So while I believe it's entirely possible for Bangel to be woven into some new love pattern, I'm also pretty sure the old model of "we can only love each other; no one else will ever do" is broken for good.

I've said this several times in the past. Buffy and Angel MAY actually end up together in some far distant scenario, but it will be a totally new and completely different relationship from what they shared in Sunnydale. People grow. They change. They become, in effect, totally different people. (Anyone who has ever gone to a 20 year high school reunion can attest to this) Angel and Buffy MAY meet and fall in love all over again at some time in the future, but it will almost certainly be a totally new relationship, with little or nothing to do with what they had before. Call it "Bangel Rebooted," or "Bangel: The Next Generation," or something else, but it most certainly will NOT be the Bangel as it was portrayed in Seasons 1 thru 3 of BTVS.

 

[caritas08]

I may be the only one on here that doesn't want Buffy to end up with either one (unless she ends up with both 😛).

I think Buffy is stronger when she is alone and asking Buffy to choose between Angel and Spike is like asking me to choose between Angel and Spike which I just can't do. I think it's just better if they keep fighting the good fight alone knowing there are two other people out there who love them and are exactly like them (that's more than a lot of people get).