What if Buffy killed Faith in Graduation Day, Part 1?

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

But I agree that I do find it troubling that she could justify taking a human life to save the life of someone she deems more important/valuable to her.

See, that's just the problem - there is no life to save. Angel is dead. I don't believe the existence of a vampire, even an ensouled one, should have as much value as a life, even that of a not-exactly human. Although that might not be what Buffy believes in.

he is incredibly selective and inconsistent about who deserves her forgiveness

Actually, I think she is. She forgives those she finds useful, those who will follow her. Everybody else can go to hell. As long as you're of use and compliant every atrocity is forgiven.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]


See, that's just the problem - there is no life to save. Angel is dead. I don't believe the existence of a vampire, even an ensouled one, should have as much value as a life, even that of a not-exactly human. Although that might not be what Buffy believes in.

Not to contradict what I have said already, but is the mere fact of a beating heart and air in ones lungs the deciding factor? I can't help but feel that who you are counts too, it can't just be about what you are. If you who you are is a pretty shitty person, simply being a person earns you some leeway. In the opposite manner, being ensouled and a worthwhile individual earns Angel some leeway where being a vampire would leave him short. A demon like Clem is, to me, and innocent. Where as Lilah or Holland are very much not. If I had a choice about who was more deserving of saving, I know I'd be inclined to Clem's favour. I feel that it was a version of this logic that Buffy employed here but I find neither way sits well with me. Either way someone is undeservedly killed.

 

[white avenger]

Is there anyone in the Buffyverse who hasn't either killed or allowed someone to die by their inaction? Joss seems to love the idea that even the most heinous crimes can be pardoned by simply having the perpetrator admit their crime and promise to make a reasonable effort not to do it ever again. Rape, murder, even attempting to destroy the world, nothing is so bad that a Whedon character can't achieve redemption, and usually with no more punishment than their own guilty conscience.

Buffy's intention when she went to confront Faith was murder, cold, premeditated, and with no regrets. She even dressed up for the event. The fact that she appeared to regret her actions afterward in no way either excused or justified them, regardless of all of the "for the greater good," or "to save a hero," arguments that she might have used. And it wasn't even self defense, as it was later with the Knights of Byzantium. Nothing that Buffy said, did, or thought could ultimately excuse what Buffy planned to do. Fortunately, in the Buffyverse, as opposed to real life, that's not such a big thing.

And, if her original plan had worked out the way that she intended it to, Buffy might have spent the rest of the episode regretting what she had done, but it would have been all forgotten by next week's episode, probably never to be mentioned or referred to again.

 

[Robb Stark]

In fairness though, was that really what Faith was doing? Faith was absolutely batting for Team Evil but she was hardly masterminding the end of the world. The Ascension, while sure to be uncomprehendingly devastating was not world ending or Hell-on-Earth inducing stuff. It certainly wasn't in the league of what Angelus/Glory/Willow or even The First were trying to do. Faith was (I don't want to use the word evil, because that wasn't what was happening with her) lets say courting chaos, pretty enthusiastically at that, but I don't think for a second she was in the league of other people who have been extended passes by the Scoobies *cough* Willow *cough* :whistle:.

Throughout this particular season Buffy spent a great deal of time telling Faith that being a Slayer does not make them killers, and over and over she keeps bending (or completely ignoring that stance). Take Warren for instance, he killed Tara. With a gun. Human rules very much apply here. But Willow flayed him, a much more grotesque death than Faith offered anyone, and she doesn't find an ounce of understanding from the Scoobies, but Willow? She gets to go to England to "rehab" and comes back to open arms of her friends. Buffy is my hero, I love her character, but she is incredibly selective and inconsistent about who deserves her forgiveness.

I completely agree that Buffy is very selective of who she forgives and who she doesn't. And the Willow example is a perfect one. But I think that a ton of people give Buffy crap for her decision to kill Faith without really...accounting for what Faith actually did and was intending to do (cough, cough, [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]...I may or may not be looking at you 😛).

I'm not condoning murder in any way, and I'm not saying Buffy was "right" for what she did. But when you consider that Faith by that point is essentially an enemy combatant who has freely chosen to do evil and kill people without any soul entanglements that certain vampires have, I never felt shame for Buffy either. I mean, Faith is beyond horrible that season, no matter how rough of a childhood she had. The first death she caused, the assistant mayor, was an accident, absolutely. The following ones were not. Trying to murder Angel was not. Trying to remove Angel's soul so he would butcher countless innocent people was not. Repeatedly trying to murder Buffy and Willow was not. Attempting to rape Xander was not. All of that was done freely, and it was pretty clear that Faith wasn't going away by talking to her. Just about every single one of the Scoobies (well, not Willow) tried, and Faith wouldn't listen. It was only a season later when her rampage got so out of control and she dealt more directly with Angel that she finally snapped out of it.

I just feel like because Faith is a cool, popular character, she gets a bit of a pass, fan wise when really, she was pretty awful. Not evil, because we saw her pull out of it eventually, but as close to the line as you could get. She did some incredibly evil things.

 

[white avenger]

I just feel like because Faith is a cool, popular character, she gets a bit of a pass, fan wise when really, she was pretty awful.

You can say that about Angel, Giles, Willow, Buffy, Anya, and even Buffy herself over the run of this series and "Angel." As I said before, doing it and getting away with it, with only a guilty conscience as penalty. But I still say that Buffy's motives had nothing whatsoever to do with any of that. She didn't see Faith as an enemy soldier, she saw her as simply a cure for her boyfriend. But my (some might say) blind and unerring defense of Faith has nothing whatsoever to do with any of that.

As my wife could tell you, I have a thing for brown eyed brunettes with heart winning smiles and blood boiling figures

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/events/Eliza Dushku/wenn5388916.html#

 

[Kean]

I completely agree that Buffy is very selective of who she forgives and who she doesn't. And the Willow example is a perfect one. But I think that a ton of people give Buffy crap for her decision to kill Faith without really...accounting for what Faith actually did and was intending to do (cough, cough, [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]...I may or may not be looking at you 😛).

I'm not condoning murder in any way, and I'm not saying Buffy was "right" for what she did. But when you consider that Faith by that point is essentially an enemy combatant who has freely chosen to do evil and kill people without any soul entanglements that certain vampires have, I never felt shame for Buffy either. I mean, Faith is beyond horrible that season, no matter how rough of a childhood she had. The first death she caused, the assistant mayor, was an accident, absolutely. The following ones were not. Trying to murder Angel was not. Trying to remove Angel's soul so he would butcher countless innocent people was not. Repeatedly trying to murder Buffy and Willow was not. Attempting to rape Xander was not. All of that was done freely, and it was pretty clear that Faith wasn't going away by talking to her. Just about every single one of the Scoobies (well, not Willow) tried, and Faith wouldn't listen. It was only a season later when her rampage got so out of control and she dealt more directly with Angel that she finally snapped out of it.

I just feel like because Faith is a cool, popular character, she gets a bit of a pass, fan wise when really, she was pretty awful. Not evil, because we saw her pull out of it eventually, but as close to the line as you could get. She did some incredibly evil things.

I'm not condoning anything Faith did. She allowed her discontent to manifest in the most malicious of ways. There's no sugarcoating that. But I can't help but have time for her as a character. If she carried on unrepentant I wouldn't think twice about her but the fact that she is sorry, and deeply so, and takes responsibility for what she did, well that counts for me. Especially when other characters that will remain nameless don't seem to care very much about the damage they cause beyond the consequences it renders on them personally. Ahem...

I'm certainly not swayed by her sassy mouth and "Just-Don't-Give-a-Fff..." attitude. That means less than nothing to me. If that's all she was, I'd dislike her immensely.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm not condoning anything Faith did. She allowed her discontent to manifest in the most malicious of ways. There's no sugarcoating that. But I can't help but have time for her as a character. If she carried on unrepentant I wouldn't think twice about her but the fact that she is sorry, and deeply so, and takes responsibility for what she did, well that counts for me. Especially when other characters that will remain nameless don't seem to care very much about the damage they cause beyond the consequences it renders on them personally. Ahem...

I'm certainly not swayed by her sassy mouth and "Just-Don't-Give-a-Fff..." attitude. That means less than nothing to me. If that's all she was, I'd dislike her immensely.

True. And I feel like I should make my stance on it a bit clearer. I really, really don't dislike Faith. Not at all, actually. I find her to be one of the most interesting and complex characters in either series. Her arc in L.A. with Angel is some of my favorite stuff of that show, as is her return in S4 and her S7 comeback on BTVS.

My sort of anti-Faith post was more directed at that specific situation and why I don't mentally take Buffy to task or anything. I hope it's not taken as a reflection of Faith as a character. That was never the intent.

 

[Mischlings]

Let me put my thoughts in here, trying to touch on what [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] and [MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION] have been talking about.

When Buffy goes to kill Faith, Faith deserves it. Given what she's done up to this point, I think that she would be completely justified in killing Faith, just like I thought she actually did at the end of the episode...

If that was actually the reason that she tried to kill Faith. It's not. Instead, she tried to kill her for a much more selfish reason. It wasn't to stop Faith from killing more people, it wasn't to slow down or stop the Mayor, it was to save Angel. Once we see how little effect letting Angel feed on her had, it seems even less justified for her to have tried to kill Faith for the reason that she did.

As for Faith getting a pass for being a character people like, that happens in EVERY fandom. Also, the Mayor wasn't going to end the world. The Ascension would've probably destroyed Sunnydale, given the fact that the one reference they have to an Ascension mentions that the town was never heard from again. If an Ascension would end the world, and one seems to have already happened... well, there wouldn't be a world left, would there?

Now, I still hold to my previous idea that Buffy did kill Faith, but I thought that I should also say a few things about what's popped up in this discussion since then.

 

[Robb Stark]

Let me put my thoughts in here, trying to touch on what [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] and [MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION] have been talking about.

When Buffy goes to kill Faith, Faith deserves it. Given what she's done up to this point, I think that she would be completely justified in killing Faith, just like I thought she actually did at the end of the episode...

If that was actually the reason that she tried to kill Faith. It's not. Instead, she tried to kill her for a much more selfish reason. It wasn't to stop Faith from killing more people, it wasn't to slow down or stop the Mayor, it was to save Angel. Once we see how little effect letting Angel feed on her had, it seems even less justified for her to have tried to kill Faith for the reason that she did.

As for Faith getting a pass for being a character people like, that happens in EVERY fandom. Also, the Mayor wasn't going to end the world. The Ascension would've probably destroyed Sunnydale, given the fact that the one reference they have to an Ascension mentions that the town was never heard from again. If an Ascension would end the world, and one seems to have already happened... well, there wouldn't be a world left, would there?

Now, I still hold to my previous idea that Buffy did kill Faith, but I thought that I should also say a few things about what's popped up in this discussion since then.

Fair enough, I misspoke. Really though, the Ascension is played as a de facto apocalyptic event, or something mighty close to it. Some of the "what if" comic scenes have shown that if the Ascension took place, it would have been something resembling that. So to me, it's not much of a moral step down that Faith is actively helping The Mayor to lay waste to absolutely everything in his path. I don't think that plays into it all that much.

You raise a good point, as did [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION], about Buffy's motivations for killing Faith. And you're right, essentially. It's interesting that Buffy doesn't try to kill Faith in S4, when she kind of reaches the apex of her bad phase. I think Buffy's line of thinking, in S3, is that Faith is beyond redemption, she doesn't want it despite Buffy's best efforts (clearly these would turn out to be false assumptions), Faith is on a rampage and the only thing that is going to save Angel is Faith's death. I think if the only thing that would have saved Angel was some random guy's blood, she wouldn't have killed him. Faith's crimes very much played into it.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

but is the mere fact of a beating heart and air in ones lungs the deciding factor?

No, the ability to reproduce, which vampires lack, is. ( and no, Connor does not count ) You know, I believe life has a value on its own. If Angel seizes to exist, well, that's it but if Faith is murdered then not only her life is taken but also the lives of those she can possibly create. That's why a living being, no matter how twisted, should always be chosen over a vampire.

Not the strongest argument, I know, but it works for me.
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

Is there anyone in the Buffyverse who hasn't either killed or allowed someone to die by their inaction?

That would be Tara. Joyce as well, I guess.
[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

I just feel like because Faith is a cool, popular character, she gets a bit of a pass, fan wise

I think Faith's essentially the biggest loser in the entire Buffyverse. She's absolutely pathetic, a stupid, worthless waste as Willow put it. I don't like her, I don't find her interesting, hell, I don't even find her attractive but I think that a slayer shouldn't even consider feeding another slayer to a vampire. Like ever. Kill her if you have to but do it with dignity, don't reduce her to a happy meal with legs, nobody should die like that.

 

[Bly]

Uhm, I'm not too convinced. I feel like Faith did want to be forgiven, but was too proud and childish to even admit she needed someone to stand up for her. And no one tried really hard to get closer to her, they kind of judged only by mere appearance, (apart from Xander, but still, he wasn't objective and supportive at all).
As for Buffy's intentions, I guess it's pretty obvious she isn't the most neutral person in the world when it comes to people she truly loves. And here goes [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION]@ speech.
Although I don't agree with you - 'coz I do love Faith, and she gives me emotion which I just don't get from the 99% of people around me - I think the same thing about the humiliation of being fed to a monster. It's not necessary. And it's not poetic, just threatical.

 

[Robb Stark]

Uhm, I'm not too convinced. I feel like Faith did want to be forgiven, but was too proud and childish to even admit she needed someone to stand up for her. And no one tried really hard to get closer to her, they kind of judged only by mere appearance, (apart from Xander, but still, he wasn't objective and supportive at all).
As for Buffy's intentions, I guess it's pretty obvious she isn't the most neutral person in the world when it comes to people she truly loves. And here goes [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION]@ speech.
Although I don't agree with you - 'coz I do love Faith, and she gives me emotion which I just don't get from the 99% of people around me - I think the same thing about the humiliation of being fed to a monster. It's not necessary. And it's not poetic, just threatical.

I don't know, seemed to me like Xander was about as supportive as you could possibly get. All he said to her was that he wanted to help and that he was there if she needed anything. Not his fault Faith then tried to rape him.

 

[Bly]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]@ you're partly right. Xander wanted to help, but like all the other Scoobies, his concern wasn't so deep and she desperately needed it to stay sane. Look, I'm not saying she was easy to handle, but at least they could have tried to be more comprehensive: they jumped to wrong conclusion too soon, that she was bad, evil, when she was only angry for being alone. She felt rejected and unwanted from like everybody, even Buffy (or should I say especially?)
The "rape" - you mean the attempted killing, do you? It's just an evidence of her malaise. Buffy should have known better - she's been bad too, and recently. And, like every Slayer, she's got a strong connection with the evil.

 

[Jeff86]

Firstly, I would have been sad if Buffy had killed Faith. She was one of the best and most interesting characters ever on the show. I love Buffy to death, but I love Faith too.

Secondly, I think Buffy would have suffered immense guilt over it, even if she did it to save Angel. Buffy has said repeatedly that she is not a killer, and I think killing Faith would have eaten her alive with guilt. This is pretty evident with the look of horror on her face when she stabs Faith. Buffy just doesn't have it in her to kill a human. And yes, Faith did horrible things to say the very least, but I don't think she deserved to be killed. She was not so far gone that she couldn't be reformed. Faith certainly needed to be in prison for what she had done, but she didn't deserve to be killed and fed to Angel.

 

[itssmiletime]

Well, I'm forever grateful that Buffy wasn't successful in getting Faith. The idea of Buffy carrying Faith's limp and near-death body to Angel, and for him to feed on like some takeaway meal makes me cringe. Faith doesn't deserve to be reduced to that.

Alot of people seem to think that Angel really does care for Faith, and whilst there is truth in that, he is willing to feed from her. Also, the reason why Buffy takes Faith out is also a problem- not because of the ascension or that she is a killer, but because of her boyfriend. It's like Buffy is a glorified vampire minion.

 

[Robb Stark]

Well, I'm forever grateful that Buffy wasn't successful in getting Faith. The idea of Buffy carrying Faith's limp and near-death body to Angel, and for him to feed on like some takeaway meal makes me cringe. Faith doesn't deserve to be reduced to that.

Alot of people seem to think that Angel really does care for Faith, and whilst there is truth in that, he is willing to feed from her. Also, the reason why Buffy takes Faith out is also a problem- not because of the ascension or that she is a killer, but because of her boyfriend. It's like Buffy is a glorified vampire minion.

While I agree that Buffy's reasons aren't entirely selfless, the fact does remain that Faith is near the height of evil at this point. She's murdered several innocent people and is attempting to raise The Mayor into a hell-demon which will butcher thousands upon thousands more. Angel meanwhile, boyfriend or not, is a hero fighting The Mayor and the Ascension.

And considering the numerous times Buffy, Angel and everyone else had tried to help Faith, I felt close to zero sympathy for her. She redeemed herself over the course of the series and I very much like and enjoy her as a character, but at that point she was a fully-fledged bad guy who was showing no signs whatsoever of coming back onto the right side. And as we see a season later, Angel hadn't given up her.

 

[Zeppelin92]

Buffy would feel guilty but why should she? Faith wasn't an ordinary human like Warren, she had supernatural abilities. When it comes to things Supernatural, Buffy has to make the choices she needs to make in order to protect people. Buffy even said she would have killed Dark Willow if she had to in order to protect the world.

Killing a defenseless human compared to killing an equally matched 'Dark' Slayer are two completely different things. I'm glad they didn't kill off Faith though because she played a pretty critical role in Buffy and Angel and I find her character one of the more compelling in the series'.

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

And just to tack this on at the end, if Faith died, we would have had another Slayer called. I wonder who that Slayer could have been. Hmmmmm.

 

[itssmiletime]

While I agree that Buffy's reasons aren't entirely selfless, the fact does remain that Faith is near the height of evil at this point. She's murdered several innocent people and is attempting to raise The Mayor into a hell-demon which will butcher thousands upon thousands more. Angel meanwhile, boyfriend or not, is a hero fighting The Mayor and the Ascension.

And considering the numerous times Buffy, Angel and everyone else had tried to help Faith, I felt close to zero sympathy for her. She redeemed herself over the course of the series and I very much like and enjoy her as a character, but at that point she was a fully-fledged bad guy who was showing no signs whatsoever of coming back onto the right side. And as we see a season later, Angel hadn't given up her.

Well, I do agree that Faith was a threat, but if you are going to kill her, just kill her. Put her deliberately in a coma, or whatnot. Just don't drag her to be a happy meal for your boyfriend. Seriously, could ANYONE stomach the scene of Buffy bringing Faith along for Angel to suck on? And what would they do with Faith's body afterwards? Now that is dark, and I don't think Joss, was willing to go that far, but Buffy knew that was the direction she was going into and continued anyway

The fact that Faith was evil, well, I didn't think had much to do with Buffy's decision. I don't find anything admirable about Buffy's decision. She wasn't 'protecting' people. Even though Faith was evil, if Buffy killed her it would still be murder, no matter how you twist it. The ascension is ultimately irrelevant to Buffy's decision- just because Buffy is batting for Team Good doesn't justify her decision at all- I think Whedon made the fight at the end of Grad. Day, part 1 as something that had built up over time, alot of tension, kind of a good v evil fight- yet the reason why they are fighting has nothing to do with the mayor, the ascension, the scooby gang or whatnot... it's over essentially, a lover.

As for Angel, yeah he did give up on Faith. In Graduation Day part 2, he says that he 'won't be mourning over that one'. Faith hands him a gun in Five By Five, and he shoots her instantly. He is willing to drink from her. Doesn't sound like someone who 'never gave up' on her. It's only when she starts to break down into his arms that the belief in rehabilitation in Faith comes back.

 

[Robb Stark]

Well, I do agree that Faith was a threat, but if you are going to kill her, just kill her. Put her deliberately in a coma, or whatnot. Just don't drag her to be a happy meal for your boyfriend. Seriously, could ANYONE stomach the scene of Buffy bringing Faith along for Angel to suck on? And what would they do with Faith's body afterwards? Now that is dark, and I don't think Joss, was willing to go that far, but Buffy knew that was the direction she was going into and continued anyway

The fact that Faith was evil, well, I didn't think had much to do with Buffy's decision. I don't find anything admirable about Buffy's decision. She wasn't 'protecting' people. Even though Faith was evil, if Buffy killed her it would still be murder, no matter how you twist it. The ascension is ultimately irrelevant to Buffy's decision- just because Buffy is batting for Team Good doesn't justify her decision at all- I think Whedon made the fight at the end of Grad. Day, part 1 as something that had built up over time, alot of tension, kind of a good v evil fight- yet the reason why they are fighting has nothing to do with the mayor, the ascension, the scooby gang or whatnot... it's over essentially, a lover.

As for Angel, yeah he did give up on Faith. In Graduation Day part 2, he says that he 'won't be mourning over that one'. Faith hands him a gun in Five By Five, and he shoots her instantly. He is willing to drink from her. Doesn't sound like someone who 'never gave up' on her. It's only when she starts to break down into his arms that the belief in rehabilitation in Faith comes back.

I agree that it would have been a horribly awkward scene to watch, absolutely. However, the way you make it sound isn't entirely accurate either. If Angel's life depended on, say, Willow's blood, or just some random, innocent person's, Buffy wouldn't have gone out and killed them. The fact that Faith was evil, was actively trying to destroy Sunnydale and kill people, made the decision a fairly simple one. Murder? Yes, it is, but with shades of gray. I know Buffy isn't god, but if one of Faith and Angel has to die, and Faith was the one who literally caused the predicament in the first place, I have no problem with it being Faith who has to go. However, as we saw when Angel drank Buffy, the Slayer didn't have to die in order for the cure to be enacted.

And just because Angel wouldn't mourn Faith, a few hours after she tried to poison him to death and essentially forced him to drink the love of his life, doesn't make him the "bad guy". When he fires at her, he shoots to wound. I think she even says that (I could be wrong though, haven't seen the episode in a while).

 

[Mischlings]

And just because Angel wouldn't mourn Faith, a few hours after she tried to poison him to death and essentially forced him to drink the love of his life, doesn't make him the "bad guy". When he fires at her, he shoots to wound. I think she even says that (I could be wrong though, haven't seen the episode in a while).

This starts to get complicated, and since I've never watched the episode deliberately trying to figure all of this out, I'm not completely sure what everyone's motivations are at different times. (Also, we're really getting off-topic, but we can spin it off into its own thread possibly maybe.)

At the beginning of Five by Five, Wesley is standing up for Faith, telling Angel that she's still human, feeling guilty for having failed her (which he did). At this point, I'm not entirely sure what Angel's thoughts are, but Wesley at least thinks that Angel would be willing to kill her. Obviously something changes between the beginning and when she gives him the gun -- he doesn't know that the gun has blanks and he specifically tries to shoot to wound (let's not get into how many problems there are with that concept), so somewhere in there he decided that he wasn't going to try and kill her. Once she beats up Cordelia and Wesley, then tortures Wesley, Wesley obviously changed his mind and thinks she should just be killed (at least, that's my best interpretation of him picking up the knife, though I'm sure other arguments could be made). However, Angel never tries to kill her or do anything other than prolong the fight, and he never does throughout the episode.

That's what I know and have been able to tell so far. Now, what Angel thought at the beginning and if he changes his mind at some point in the episode, I'm not entirely clear on yet, and now you're making me want to watch this episode again to figure it out.