What if Buffy killed Faith in Graduation Day, Part 1?
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Mischlings
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Okay, this is going to take some explanation and people are going to think I'm insane for this:
Buffy killed Faith.
The first thing that comes to your mind is that Faith didn't die, and yes, that is the case (I'm so glad it is because I love Faith and the rest of her arc). But here's what I want you to answer: Had Faith never woken up from her coma, would you say that Buffy killed her?
My guess is that most people would say that she did, since what Buffy did is directly responsible for Faith's death. Going back to what actually happened, Faith did wake up. But where is the line? Because Faith didn't die and was "only" in a coma for eight months, Buffy has a "clean" conscience and never killed anyone. But if Faith never woke up, Buffy would have felt responsible, right? The line is blurry, and because of that, I stand by my statement above.
Anyone going to tell me I'm insane?
Buffy killed Faith.
The first thing that comes to your mind is that Faith didn't die, and yes, that is the case (I'm so glad it is because I love Faith and the rest of her arc). But here's what I want you to answer: Had Faith never woken up from her coma, would you say that Buffy killed her?
My guess is that most people would say that she did, since what Buffy did is directly responsible for Faith's death. Going back to what actually happened, Faith did wake up. But where is the line? Because Faith didn't die and was "only" in a coma for eight months, Buffy has a "clean" conscience and never killed anyone. But if Faith never woke up, Buffy would have felt responsible, right? The line is blurry, and because of that, I stand by my statement above.
Anyone going to tell me I'm insane?
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itssmiletime
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Anya2012
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I would be shocked cause Buffy doesn't kill humans but Faith was going out of control she was working with the big bad and she was on a killing spree but she still had good in her and I think Buffy couldn't do but if she did I think Buffy would regret it in the future plus I think the series wouldn't be same without Faith especially in Angel as she was a big part in both shows.
Robb Stark
King in the North
What you said here makes a lot of sense, but even so, I don't think you can demonize Buffy at this point. I'm not saying what what he did to Faith was "right", and I know you're a big-time Faith fan, but at this point in time Faith is full-fledged murderer. She hasn't just killed by accident like with The Mayor's assistant, but with intent as well. She's tormented Buffy, is trying to end the world and has now tried to poison Angel to death, the guy who, despite her previously trying to kill him, has done nothing but try to help her.
I'm not condoning Buffy's actions, obviously that's something everyone probably has a unique view on, but Faith is the bad guy here. I had zero pity for her.
Mischlings
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I'm not trying to demonize Buffy at all. Even though I'm a huge fan of Faith, I agree completely that she was the villain and that Buffy did what was probably the best decision she could make. Faith deserved to be killed at that point, and Buffy would be justified in killing her.
(And we'll just disagree on the zero pity/sympathy thing -- though being evil was her choice, I still felt bad for her.)
BuffyElevated
Scooby
I would have been sad if Buffy killed Faith. I always loved Faith as a character, and the dynamic of the Buffy/Faith relationship was so interesting to me. I absolutely LOVE "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You"; I think they're two of the most interesting and best written episodes of the series.
white avenger
white avenger
Regardless of her motives or any self-justification that she was doing it "for the greater good" (as in, saving Buffy's great boyfriend, who didn't really contribute anything major to the final victory. He was just one of the crowd, only more bumpy that the rest of the mob) I think that having killed Faith would have haunted Buffy for the rest of her life. After all of her, "Faith, you KILLED a MAN!?" accusation, and even considering Faith's attempting to put the blame on her, when all was said and done, what Faith did was an accident, and if it had been treated as such, with more support and less accusation, even if Faith would have certainly resisted initially and continued to swear that she really didn't care, she quite likely wouldn't have turned to Wilkins for the support and friendship that her Watcher, the Scoobies, and her Sister Slayer should have been the ones to give her.
The bottom line is, Faith's initial mistake was an accident, tragic, but arguably unavoidable and even at that, justified, since the Assistant Mayor was just as much her enemy as any vampire in that alley.
What Buffy almost did was cold blooded, premeditated, murder, regardless of how she tried to justify it, and, maybe not immediately, but eventually, and probably sooner than later, she would come to realize that.
Watching Angel feed on her even though she would most likely by then be dead, wouldn't have done very much to strengthen her feelings for him, either, especially if he was as sloppy an eater as were most other vampires on the show,
The bottom line is, Faith's initial mistake was an accident, tragic, but arguably unavoidable and even at that, justified, since the Assistant Mayor was just as much her enemy as any vampire in that alley.
What Buffy almost did was cold blooded, premeditated, murder, regardless of how she tried to justify it, and, maybe not immediately, but eventually, and probably sooner than later, she would come to realize that.
Watching Angel feed on her even though she would most likely by then be dead, wouldn't have done very much to strengthen her feelings for him, either, especially if he was as sloppy an eater as were most other vampires on the show,
Robb Stark
King in the North
Sorry, but that's not even close to the bottom line. Not to come off as harsh, but I don't even know where to begin here.
To start, Faith's killing of the deputy mayor was, yes, an accident. And Buffy said as much the next episode. She said Faith had to take responsibility, but she also said it was an accident. Faith responded by scolding Buffy, then attempting to frame Buffy and pretend it never happened. At the end of that SAME episode, she goes to The Mayor. Everyone tried to help her. Buffy, Angel, Xander, Giles, everyone. She spat on every single one of them, and then tried to rape Xander, who more than anyone else tried to offer friendship to her. The only one who didn't was Wesley. Angel in the mansion or Xander in the motel? That's not extending friendship or understanding? After Faith turns to The Mayor, she kills at least two people, one being a completely innocent college professor. Before that she attempts to have Angel go evil again and kill Buffy. At the end of the day, regardless of the support Faith did or didn't get from the Scoobies (and she got a lot, more than she deserved after she tried to pin it on Buffy), doesn't really matter. It was her decision to go bad. No one forced it on her, there was no soul ambiguity. She made that choice alone.
So come on, this was hardly a single mistake or an isolated incident. Faith completely snaps and pushes Buffy to the brink more than once.
And to say that Angel hasn't contributed to the final victory isn't even remotely correct. For starters, he's already played big roles in saving the world, and will again on his own show. Way down the road, without him in "Chosen", the world ends and everyone dies. Just a few episodes later, he saves Buffy's life several times. And you're forgetting, Angel tried, several times, to help Faith. Really help her, and he would again a season later.
So to say that Buffy hunting down Faith is "cold blooded, premeditated, murder," is a little harsh. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not condoning it, but Faith had more than earned it by that point. Plus, your argument is kind of contradictory. You said that it was "arguably unavoidable" that the deputy mayor gets killed because he's working for The Mayor. Well, so is Faith, in a way more violent capacity, and she far, far exceeded any kind of evil he did. I mean, she was trying to end the world. She had it coming.
Wild At Heart
the moon lights his way
I would've been upset because I feel like Faith added so much to each episode she was ever in. I already feel like we didn't get enough of her, it would've been horrible to have her gone after GDP2. Plus we never would've gotten the amazing episodes with her in s1 of Angel.
Nix
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I would have been gutted, might have even effected me watching the show to be honest. It was the thing, Buffy did not kill humans, Faith did (kinda by accident). It's what made the show and Faith's arc in BTVS and Angel so watch-able and addictive for me, seeing how it all panned out.
Mischlings
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It is a little harsh, but this was something that I was going to bring up in my original post, but didn't because it would detract from my main point. Buffy set out after Faith in order to feed her to Angel. This would likely have killed her, and judging by Buffy's reaction to Xander trying to point that out, Buffy seemed to not care, a really sharp contrast to Buffy's normal refusal to kill anyone human, no matter what they've done.
It was premeditated, but that can be another discussion altogether.
TaylorSwift
The power to make amends
If Faith had never woke from her coma or if she had actually killed her...
Ok, what Buffy decided to do was probably the only thing she could do at the moment. She has a strong sense of duty and saving what can actually be saved. I'm sure it wasn't easy to even approach herself to that decision and I'm sure that she had killed her, she would have lots of problems with herself, her morals and that would be a long recovering time.
I would understand (but not necessarily approve) why she was gonna do it though. Faith was out of control, on the evil side, killing people....she was far gone after they tried to help her multiple times.
Faith wasn't forced by events to do the killing, she wasn't trying to prevent people dying or evil taking over. She was completely lost and murdered people like it was a joke. The two approaches to kill are very, very different.
Ok, what Buffy decided to do was probably the only thing she could do at the moment. She has a strong sense of duty and saving what can actually be saved. I'm sure it wasn't easy to even approach herself to that decision and I'm sure that she had killed her, she would have lots of problems with herself, her morals and that would be a long recovering time.
I would understand (but not necessarily approve) why she was gonna do it though. Faith was out of control, on the evil side, killing people....she was far gone after they tried to help her multiple times.
Faith wasn't forced by events to do the killing, she wasn't trying to prevent people dying or evil taking over. She was completely lost and murdered people like it was a joke. The two approaches to kill are very, very different.
white avenger
white avenger
First, I don't consider merely disagreeing with me as harsh, as long as you present your arguments logically and in a civil manner, which you have done, and you don't attempt to either insult John Wayne or make fun of my dog. A man has to draw the line somewhere.
We both agree that killing the Assistant Mayor was an accident. Where we differ is that I see Faith's reaction afterward as the reaction of someone who has been faced with a situation that she was totally unprepared for and obviously has no experience handling. She follows the classic steps of a child who does something that she knows was was very wrong (the kind of seriously wrong like when a 6 year old accidentally swings a a baseball bat in the next door neighbor's house and shatters their new wide screen TV) She 1) tries to run away to avoid getting caught. When accused by one who she doesn't see as an authority figure she says "I don't care." Then, in desperation, fearing the inevitable punishment, 2) tries to put the blame on someone else, "I tried to stop her, but it was really Buffy that did it. She's gonna deny it, but I just though that you should know." Then, when her guilt is undeniable, 3) plots revenge on her punishers."Yeah, well, okay, I got caught, but I'm gonna run away and be a roving bandit. THAT'LL show 'em.)
I'm not trying to put all of th blame on Buffy, Giles, or the others, but I still say that they could have handled the situation better.. Buffy was just as much in shock as Faith was, and while she didn't exactly say, "I'm gonna tell on you," that's pretty much what she was ultimately going to do. And I have no doubt that the idea of Buffy doing anything like that never even entered into Giles' mind. If anything like that had happened, she would have gone to him and told him immediately, (just like she did when Angel came back from hell).
How really hard did they try to sympathize with Faith? And for how long? Not hard enough, apparently, or at least they quit trying too soon, because as we all know from future seasons, Faith is basically a decent person who simply panicked and made some bad decisions, fell under the influence of a charming, charismatic, albeit evil, man, and while under his influence, compounded her mistakes. It could just as easily been Buffy in that alley, in the rain, holding a sobbing Faith, but Buffy wasn't the one who never gave up on her.
When I said that Angel didn't contribute that much to the final victory, I was referring to the battle against the Mayor and his minions, not the mythical "Final Victory" or super Armageddon that was referred to at the beginning of the "Fray" miniseries (which I assume that you mean) Sorry for the confusion. As for that one, however, since Joss has confirmed that the final battle in Season 8 was that battle with the outcome changed, I wouldn't be too proud of Angel's major contribution in that one, even though it came quite close to fulfilling the Shanshu prophecy. He did play a major part in the battle on the side of evil.
As for Buffy's actions, she went to Faith's apartment, armed, with the express purpose of either killing her or delivering her to Angel so that he could do the job himself. That's about as cold blooded and premeditated as you can get in my book.
(And, just for the record, let me apologize here if my rhetoric has outrun my logic, but I have to leave now without rereading the stuff I just wrote and possibly editing it. Dentists don'w wait for fan forums.
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Robb Stark
King in the North
Lot of good points. Rereading my answer, I didn't have much understanding, which isn't what I wanted to come across. I like Faith a lot, and think she's a very complex character. I don't think she's a bad person, and with her background and everything she's clearly gone through, it never surprised me that she lost it. Faith even getting Slayer powers to begin with, something like you said, she wasn't even close to prepared for, illustrates everything wrong with the whole "chosen" process.
But while that should be understood, it doesn't excuse the behavior. There are lots of people who have horrible things happen to them and don't go berserk. It's not an excuse to act however you want and hurt people. Sooner or later, we all have to answer for our actions (which, she ultimately did).
I haven't finished S8 yet, so I'm not sure what happens with Angel (although after reading tidbits throughout this board, I'm assuming it isn't good). I've been waiting for the hardcovers off Amazon (latest one arrived a few days ago, so I'm planning to get to it). I was talking more about his actions and effect on both BTVS and his own show.
white avenger
white avenger
Maybe we should petition President Obama to issue an executive order banning the civilian use of assault stakes and easily concealed bottles of holy water.
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist that, considering what I just read in the dentist's lobby)
Seriously, certainly a lot of people manage to accept, get over, and move on from bad things every day. But just because some, even most, people manage to cope, that doesn't mean that there aren't some otherwise sane, well adjusted, "normal" people who simply can't handle certain things. One of the bravest, strongest men who it has ever been my privilege to know was absolutely terrified of horses. Even the PICTURE of a horse would get his heart racing. (not the same as going to work for the equivalent of an evil cult leader and becoming his hit man, I realize, but an example of the fact that some people handle different crises in unique ways. And, incidentally, my friend, because in part by the support and care of his friends, is a member of a local saddle club, and regularly rides a beautiful chestnut Tennessee Walker.)
Faith had some serious personal problems before coming to Sunnydale, some of which never were completely resolved. One of the most obvious was her terror of Kikostos. And, just like she would do later with the Assistant Mayor, her initial reaction when confronted by him was to run away and try to find someone who would help and support her. Not exactly the same thing that she did in Sunnydale, but still...
I quote Mischlings again. Buffy had killed Faith - at least - deep down. The fact she woke up from the coma and she's not actually dead, proves nothing. The betrayal, the hurt, the angst, is all there, in her damaged heart. I agree with Willow and some people saying that not every messed up person would freak out the way Faith did, but I'd love to remind you, humanities folk, we are different from each other, so I can not be as strong as you are. We're all human, and weakness is part of us. Just deal with it.
(Don't misunderstand me: I'm not justfying her, I'm only stating I understand her, 'cause I can empathize with her mood and feelings.)
As for Scoobies' behaviour towards the Rogue Slayer, I'd prefer not to talk about that. It's such a long and complex story. XD
(Don't misunderstand me: I'm not justfying her, I'm only stating I understand her, 'cause I can empathize with her mood and feelings.)
As for Scoobies' behaviour towards the Rogue Slayer, I'd prefer not to talk about that. It's such a long and complex story. XD
EVIL UU
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@The Dark Avenger
Faith's not a human and as Buffy puts it herself several years later "Human rules don't apply." I'm not going to judge her beliefs and her choices but what ruffles my feathers is the reason why she decides to murder Faith.
Buffy plans to kill a living being to prolong an existence of a corpse. Her actions might be defensible but her motives are not, regardless of who Faith is and what she's done.
Faith's not a human and as Buffy puts it herself several years later "Human rules don't apply." I'm not going to judge her beliefs and her choices but what ruffles my feathers is the reason why she decides to murder Faith.
Buffy plans to kill a living being to prolong an existence of a corpse. Her actions might be defensible but her motives are not, regardless of who Faith is and what she's done.
I wouldn't quite refer to Angel as merely a "corpse", he was more than just that. But I agree that I do find it troubling that she could justify taking a human life to save the life of someone she deems more important/valuable to her.
In some ways this is a consistent thing in Buffy's character, from Ted right up until Lies My Parent's Told Me, she has shown herself willing to take lives or not get in the way of lives being taken. That is why Faith got under her skin so much, she was like a reflection of that aspect of herself. She magnified it to the point where Buffy couldn't ignore it.
Robb Stark
King in the North
Interesting theory. I hadn't thought about it like that before. However, there were some pretty huge extenuating circumstances. Like Faith trying to literally end the world and send everyone to hell so she could feel needed.
In fairness though, was that really what Faith was doing? Faith was absolutely batting for Team Evil but she was hardly masterminding the end of the world. The Ascension, while sure to be uncomprehendingly devastating was not world ending or Hell-on-Earth inducing stuff. It certainly wasn't in the league of what Angelus/Glory/Willow or even The First were trying to do. Faith was (I don't want to use the word evil, because that wasn't what was happening with her) lets say courting chaos, pretty enthusiastically at that, but I don't think for a second she was in the league of other people who have been extended passes by the Scoobies *cough* Willow *cough* :whistle:.
Throughout this particular season Buffy spent a great deal of time telling Faith that being a Slayer does not make them killers, and over and over she keeps bending (or completely ignoring that stance). Take Warren for instance, he killed Tara. With a gun. Human rules very much apply here. But Willow flayed him, a much more grotesque death than Faith offered anyone, and she doesn't find an ounce of understanding from the Scoobies, but Willow? She gets to go to England to "rehab" and comes back to open arms of her friends. Buffy is my hero, I love her character, but she is incredibly selective and inconsistent about who deserves her forgiveness.
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xfivebyfive
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