What if Buffy killed Faith in Graduation Day, Part 1?

[itssmiletime]

I agree that it would have been a horribly awkward scene to watch, absolutely. However, the way you make it sound isn't entirely accurate either. If Angel's life depended on, say, Willow's blood, or just some random, innocent person's, Buffy wouldn't have gone out and killed them. The fact that Faith was evil, was actively trying to destroy Sunnydale and kill people, made the decision a fairly simple one. Murder? Yes, it is, but with shades of gray. I know Buffy isn't god, but if one of Faith and Angel has to die, and Faith was the one who literally caused the predicament in the first place, I have no problem with it being Faith who has to go. However, as we saw when Angel drank Buffy, the Slayer didn't have to die in order for the cure to be enacted.

And just because Angel wouldn't mourn Faith, a few hours after she tried to poison him to death and essentially forced him to drink the love of his life, doesn't make him the "bad guy". When he fires at her, he shoots to wound. I think she even says that (I could be wrong though, haven't seen the episode in a while).

First off, I don't think that Angel not mourning Faith makes him a 'bad guy'. You can give up on a person and still not be a bad guy- Willow, for example, says right to Faith's face that it's way too late in Choices, and she was well in the side of good. When Faith goes out of her way to wreck havok- yeah people are gonna give up on her, and I think Angel did also for a period of time.

My problem is that Buffy went straight for the kill. Faith didn't have to die. As weird, implausible this may sound, I wouldn't have much problem if Faith was alive, and Angel drank from her, as long as he doesn't take it all, and enough for her to be alive. Better than Buffy's inital plan of killing Faith, and bringing her body along, that's what I have a problem with. She could have knocked her unconcious, stuck a needle in her for all I know, and taken some blood.

At the beginning of Five by Five, Wesley is standing up for Faith, telling Angel that she's still human, feeling guilty for having failed her (which he did).

How did Wesley fail Faith? Faith's first words to Wesley were 'screw this'. She disobeyed any orders. She's not a child. None of the scoobies let Wesley in on anything that was going on. They blamed him for pretty much everything (see Xander's comment in Enemies)

 

[Mischlings]

How did Wesley fail Faith? Faith's first words to Wesley were 'screw this'. She disobeyed any orders. She's not a child. None of the scoobies let Wesley in on anything that was going on. They blamed him for pretty much everything (see Xander's comment in Enemies)

From the perspective that he was supposed to be responsible for her but only ever managed to make things worse. No, she never really gave him a chance, but that doesn't mean that there was nothing he could have done. I don't put it down to malice or anything like that - he simply wasn't equipped to handle the situation.

 

[itssmiletime]

From the perspective that he was supposed to be responsible for her but only ever managed to make things worse. No, she never really gave him a chance, but that doesn't mean that there was nothing he could have done. I don't put it down to malice or anything like that - he simply wasn't equipped to handle the situation.

Wesley did make mistakes, but he didn't fail her. If someone failed Faith- it would have been Giles, who was her watcher for months, displayed his love for Buffy over and over, did nothing to learn about Faith and her life, whilst she lived in a motel doing god knows what for rent...

Wesley wasn't given a chance at all, by either Buffy or Faith. At this stage, they were both adults. If I go to university, fail all my assignments, it's my fault. Not the tutors or the lecturers. If I have circumstances, still, not my lecturers or tutors fault.

I've never been given a single valid example of Wes failing Faith- the whole debacle in Consequences, well, if any sane person overhears that someone killed someone, they are going to take action. The scoobies were incredibly stupid to think that something gigantic as a killing could be hidden. Buffy worded it to make it like Faith 'killed' someone.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

It was pretty clear that Buffy was emotional and irrational in her actions here. Faith is a sociopath, she'd taken a human life and didn't feel it at all. She refused help and allied with a known enemy against the Scoobies. Now she had harmed someone Buffy loves (She and Angel were broken up by this point but lets face it, that love will never die), she'd made it personal. Even Angel himself was willing to drain Faith over Buffy.
There is no question that ending Faith would be a public service and as they say, desperate times call for desperate measures. That blood was needed to save a life...or well...you know. Personally I wouldn't have had a problem with it, I would not mourn Faith.

But is this grounds for killing her? No, Faith is still a human being which was a violation of the slayer code and Buffy's values. Ultimately it would have ruined her emotionally. remember Ted? A possessive psycho asshole but nonetheless when she thought she'd killed him, a human being it had sent her into a deep shock and guilt especially given the fact that this was someone her mother had grown close to. This is what sets her apart from Faith. Under different circumstances, if Ted had actually been a human being (which he actually had not been) I could see her having gone downhill into a psychological breakdown.
Watching Faith tumble over the edge of the roof you can see the regret already forming on Buffy's face. True there was failure in that expression because Faith had taken her body and Angel's cure out of reach but the way she then looked down at the blood all over the blade in her hand, you can tell it's sinking in, what she'd done.

 

[Xin Rong]

For me given the situation, Buffy had a responsibility to stop Faith, whatever the cost. Faith completely fell into Buffy's jurisdiction, the police etc would not have been able to stop her, especially in that particular situation. Whilst the mayor was alive then Buffy and co had no hope of bringing her back to the 'right' side, and alive she was a massive obstacle. Regardless of faith 'needing' to die to save angel, she needed to be neutralised, even without Buffy using the mayors emotions against him to defeat him, if graduation day had gone ahead and faith was there then buffy would have been to preoccupied fighting faith to actually do anything about the mayor... thus everyone (at least in sunnydale) dead! So Buffy did not really have a choice, at some point she would have to take out faith, before the ascension.

Although in saying that I am glad it didn't work out that way cos I love faith, and for me she is the most improved character from the entire buffyverse.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Buffy had a responsibility to stop Faith, whatever the cost. Faith completely fell into Buffy's jurisdiction.

Forgive me but I fail to see this logic. Slayers do not slay human beings, Faith was a human being who took other human lives. Sounds like a police matter rather than a slayer matter to me.

You said it yourself:

Whilst the mayor was alive then Buffy and co had no hope of bringing her back to the 'right' side, and alive she was a massive obstacle.

It was the Mayer who made her a real threat, take out the mayer and she had no real power over Buffy. Even in 'This Year's Girl/'Who Are You' the Mayor was driving her actions with that device he gave her to switch bodies.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12443]SoulOfAngelus[/MENTION]

Faith is still a human being

No. Faith, like other slayers, is a demon or an artificially created demon/human hybrid, like Adam, at best. Moreover, Faith's never been a human being. Potential slayers posses inherent abilities others, as in the rest of the humanity, do not. Activated or not, they're not human beings.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

[MENTION=12443]SoulOfAngelus[/MENTION]


No. Faith, like other slayers, is a demon or an artificially created demon/human hybrid, like Adam, at best. Moreover, Faith's never been a human being. Potential slayers posses inherent abilities others, as in the rest of the humanity, do not. Activated or not, they're not human beings.

What!? Where do you get this from? If it's revealed in season 5+, I am not there yet. Or if it is revealed in 'Restless' I so need to watch that episode again. There are some scattered eps I didn't devote enough attention to.

 

[Xin Rong]

Forgive me but I fail to see this logic. Slayers do not slay human beings, Faith was a human being who took other human lives. Sounds like a police matter rather than a slayer matter to me.

You said it yourself:


It was the Mayer who made her a real threat, take out the mayer and she had no real power over Buffy. Even in 'This Year's Girl/'Who Are You' the Mayor was driving her actions with that device he gave her to switch bodies.

Faith, and Buffy, are not human beings, they are super beings, in angel they specifically state that the police would not be equipped to deal with fath... as evident by her eventual escape... therefore it means that Faith without a doubt would have to dealt with by a supernatural force... would you have sent the police against dark willow? She was more human than faith?

Also, yes the mayor was the real threat, but faith was his shield, you couldn't taKe out the mayor without dealing with faith first, if buffy hadn't done what she did, how would she have been able to fight the mayor whilst she was busy having a big battle with faith?

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Faith, and Buffy, are not human beings, they are super beings, in angel they specifically state that the police would not be equipped to deal with fath... as evident by her eventual escape... therefore it means that Faith without a doubt would have to dealt with by a supernatural force... would you have sent the police against dark willow? She was more human than faith?

Alright this is somewhat clearer, but a super being is still human just not average like say, the man Faith staked. If a slayer truly was inhuman there is no way Buffy would have been able to receive that transfusion after curing Angel without that being noticed in her blood. in fact Angel would know better than to take her to be treated by human doctors where she could be discovered.

Much like a similar occurrence in True Blood where the doctor approaches her group with the impossible discovery that she has no blood type and wouldn't even accept the universal O-.

Certainly there would be something noticeably different in Buffy's blood if she were not human.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

It just dawned on me, another reason Buffy is definitely human is because of Spike's chip in seasons 4 and 5. It only delivers a counter attack on himself with humans, and does so with Buffy.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12443]SoulOfAngelus[/MENTION]

What!? Where do you get this from? If it's revealed in season 5+, I am not there yet.

It's revealed in season 7.

 

[Xin Rong]

It just dawned on me, another reason Buffy is definitely human is because of Spike's chip in seasons 4 and 5. It only delivers a counter attack on himself with humans, and does so with Buffy.

Ok well for arguments sake, she is a supernatural human, which means she is constrained by both worlds, she has to follow the law, whilst enforcing the balance and keeping the supernatural world in check. Thus, Faith as someone who definitely belongs to the supernatural world, and cannot be controlled by the none-supernatural world, is Buffy's responsibility to deal with, and in this instance, she had to be neutralised as atonement and redemption were not things that appealed to her.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

Alright this is somewhat clearer, but a super being is still human just not average like say, the man Faith staked. If a slayer truly was inhuman there is no way Buffy would have been able to receive that transfusion after curing Angel without that being noticed in her blood. in fact Angel would know better than to take her to be treated by human doctors where she could be discovered.

Much like a similar occurrence in True Blood where the doctor approaches her group with the impossible discovery that she has no blood type and wouldn't even accept the universal O-.

Certainly there would be something noticeably different in Buffy's blood if she were not human.

Also, we know that there is something different about Slayer's blood, it tastes better, indicating some form of difference from the average human. Also, as per season 9, we know that the slayer's powers are internal, they are part of her, and considering their power has a demonic source, then they are in fact part demon, and thus considering all demons in our dimension are part human, slayers can be classified in the same supernatural category, even if their demonic self is not as phsyically evident.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Also, we know that there is something different about Slayer's blood, it tastes better, indicating some form of difference from the average human. Also, as per season 9, we know that the slayer's powers are internal, they are part of her, and considering their power has a demonic source, then they are in fact part demon, and thus considering all demons in our dimension are part human, slayers can be classified in the same supernatural category, even if their demonic self is not as phsyically evident.

Sorry I don't know, I'm on season 5. Had I known that a season 3 discussion would bring up seasons 7 and 9 I would have stayed away. -_-
This also does not explain how she could have received a transfusion without a difference in her blood being noticed if she's part demon. At this point in the debate I am leaning towards assuming writing error or something that was only just developed when revealed later?

 

[Robb Stark]

No one has addressed the point [MENTION=12443]SoulOfAngelus[/MENTION] has raised yet, which is pretty definitive in the debate. If Buffy isn't human, then why can't Spike hit her when he has the chip? He can hit demons, and if Buffy is a demon or part-demon, then logically he should be able to hit her. He can't, so that would lead one to believe that she's human.

Another point was raised about the blood transfusions. If Buffy isn't human, why can she donate/receive blood? The core of her powers have demon essences in them, yes, but that doesn't mean she herself isn't human. The evidence saying she is is pretty strong.

 

[Yosso]

Buffy being a supernatural being doesn't automatically make her non-human. Witches are human, shamans are, werewolves are, that telekinetic girl in Angel is, the list goes on. They've just got something different about them, it doesn't alter their species.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

No one has addressed the point [MENTION=12443]SoulOfAngelus[/MENTION] has raised yet, which is pretty definitive in the debate. If Buffy isn't human, then why can't Spike hit her when he has the chip? He can hit demons, and if Buffy is a demon or part-demon, then logically he should be able to hit her. He can't, so that would lead one to believe that she's human.

This point is also directly expressed when Spike uses the effect of the chip on Tara to show her father and brother that she doesn't have demon in her. He straight up says "That only happens with humans".
This also proves that witches are human and thus that not all supernatural beings are inhuman.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=12443]SoulOfAngelus[/MENTION]


No. Faith, like other slayers, is a demon or an artificially created demon/human hybrid, like Adam, at best. Moreover, Faith's never been a human being. Potential slayers posses inherent abilities others, as in the rest of the humanity, do not. Activated or not, they're not human beings.

I'd call that a wild interpretation of the text. If it's how you see it, fair enough. But stating an interpretation as fact is terribly misleading.

Whatever fraction of demon essence that Buffy (or any slayer) holds within them does not make them demons, not according to the show's canon. Buffy and Faith are no more demons for being slayers than Angel and Spike are human for having human souls.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

That's why I mentioned the hybrid. The problem is, every demon we see on the show, minus the Mayor, already is a hybrid of human and demonic parts, like slayers, and like slayers demons can be benevolent. So what makes demon a demon? Where's the difference?

I don't see it.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

That's why I mentioned the hybrid. The problem is, every demon we see on the show, minus the Mayor, already is a hybrid of human and demonic parts, like slayers, and like slayers demons can be benevolent. So what makes demon a demon? Where's the difference?

I don't see it.

Well, what makes a human a human? Being benevolent certainly isn't the baseline criteria. There are good and evil people, demons are the same. Hell, dogs are the same. I don't think the spirit or essence of the individual is the deciding factor, it has to be physiology.