Question What if Buffy wasn't white?

[msfantastico87]

I was watching OMWF before falling asleep and it had occurred to me, I had a lot of "What if" Questions. Mostly from Watching Sweet and thinking"He should be a main character, like a main big bad, and the guy playing Sweet, is indeed a black man. Anyways...here are a few questions to think about...

For example:

-What if Buffy had been African-American, Asian, Hispanic, or Indian?
-What if BtVS had been filmed in Japan, or maybe even France (I can totally see the Eiffel tower being the hellmouth!)?

Do you think the show would have had as much of an impact on us as the Buffy we all came to know and love, or do you think it would have flopped? Keeping in mind that it would still be an american show.

Same thing with AtS.

What if JAR had been cast as Angel, instead of Gunn. Do you think the romance between Angel and Buffy would have been the same if Angel had been a different race?


We all know that Joss wanted to create a world where the dumb bimbo blonde cheerleader would get loved and respected, rather than killed off like in any slasher movie. Do you think he could have still passed that message to us if he had cast and Asian, or something? The message that women, too, can kick ass?

Sorry, my thoughts are all scattered, but I hope I got my point across. This is in no way meant to offend anyone and I am NOT being racist. I am simply crusious what everyone else may think. While discussing, please keep it civil! 🙂

 

[NY State of Mind]

Hhhhmmmm...Buffy Mendez......No...it would be cool if she was mixed or something but the shows success is based off the chosen characters/actors so I wouldn't change it but I wish they had more diversity overall.

 

[Madbil]

I hadn't thought about it before. I liked the idea of Buffy being the small blonde bimbo who kicks ass but there could of definitely been more ethnic diversity with other main characters. Tara Arroyo for example would of been cool, wouldn't it? 😀 I would of also liked to see Buffy and JAR together.
Being a lover of all things American I'm glad it was shot in Sunnydale not France or Japan. Don't think it would of appealed to me so much but then we'll never know.

 

[white avenger]

We all know that Joss wanted to create a world where the dumb bimbo blonde cheerleader would get loved and respected, rather than killed off like in any slasher movie. Do you think he could have still passed that message to us if he had cast and Asian, or something? The message that women, too, can kick ass?

I really don't think that it would have worked as well, not because of Buffy's race, as much as the fact that an African American or Oriental American Slayer in the lead wouldn't have had quite the same effect. Buffy, as a character, has to be someone who surprises everyone by being able to kill the big bad ol' vampires and demons. Kick ass black women have been around since Pamela Greer and even further back. No shock factor there.

Buffy as an Oriental Slayer? We've already had Lady Kung Fu and literally dozens of other chop sockey flicks with Virginia Mayo and several imitators. Again, a Samurai Slayer just isn't as much of a seeming oxymoron as blond bimbo cheerleader Slayer. A vampire Slayer with a name like "Buffy," and we all know that she just HAD to be named Buffy, just has to have been the role that Sarah was born for.

(On the racial question, however, I do believe that Joss should have had a few more minorities represented in Sunnydale. The place was just TOO white to seem realistic)

Incidentally, this might be a good place to mention that my racist namesake is back on the 'net and spouting his white supremest hate and lies. Please be assured that he and I are two totally different people, and I share none of his views or opinions whatsoever. My White Avenger is a Templar Knight, not a Klansman.

 

[Harley]

I think Buffy written as she was (the dumb blonde, pretty, popular girl) was, in her own way, a minority. As Joss had pointed out, he wanted to use the character that most people write off or assume is going to die anway. I think we could have gotten the same idea using other minority characters. In the beginning it was about overcoming the stereotype and that, essentially, was accomplished.

 

[Willow My Love]

I'm not sure the show would have been better had it been shot in a different place.

As for the race, as long as she was female, I don't think it would have mattered. I wish Olivia had hung around longer.

 

[Washburne]

-What if Buffy had been African-American, Asian, Hispanic, or Indian?

1. Buffy isn't my favourite character so not sure if any change to her, be it skin colour or something else would have made any difference since it's the cast I love.
2. I love/get attatched to characters (or as in real life, personas), not skin colour. Had they changed the characters because of a change of skin I might have thought differently of them but never just because of what colour or ethnicity they put on the characters.
3. More often than not I seem to see it the opposite way. A none white character have a bigger chance of me liking them.
4. Most often I don't even notice. Or notice but don't think about it. I know that Nikita is played by an asian looking actress (Maggie Q) in the new series but it doesn't bother me one bit. If anything I enjoy it more (I do love my asians 😀). I just don't think about it. But maybe I'm just weird like that.

-What if BtVS had been filmed in Japan, or maybe even France (I can totally see the Eiffel tower being the hellmouth!)?

I'm not american and I don't like the show because it's american. So I don't see any problem with it.

Do you think the show would have had as much of an impact on us as the Buffy we all came to know and love, or do you think it would have flopped? Keeping in mind that it would still be an american show.

As stated earlier, on a personal level it wouldn't have mattered what colour the characters have. As for international sense I'm not as sure. Sadly. I would happily claim that it wouldn't matter to anyone.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm not american and I don't like the show because it's american.

Fine then! be that way!!! OH MY WORD

(I know what you mean, I just couldnt resist pointing out how that sounded)

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Well, it is problematic that all of the main characters on the show are white, and that many of the villians are not. But that's nothing more than a reflection of American television in general at the time.

 

[VisionGirl]

Hmm, I do rather like the bimbo blonde as the tough guy, cheerleader turned slayer. But I do wish there had been more diversity in the cast. It was set in southern California after all. And there should've been more on Angel for sure, being in LA. I do love how both Rona and Gunn point out that in horror films the black characters are the first to get killed, that was funny. I like the diversity of the potentials, but they themselves annoyed me. Compared to s7 though, I like the other slayers in s8 more. I loved the arc in Japan (Wolves at the Gate), but maybe that was more because Dracula was involved. I don't know, that whole storyline was great but sad.

I do like how we see the Slayer line as different races (Kendra, Nikki Wood, the Chinese Slayer in the Boxer Rebellion).

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

Well, it is problematic that all of the main characters on the show are white. But that's nothing more than a reflection of American television in general at the time.

Do you think that if Buffy had started now rather than in 1997 it would be different? I think so.

 

[theroyalgoat]

Eh, I think the studio's care far more about race than the viewers. I guess for some people Buffy would have been a little less relatable, but on the other end of it she would have been a little more relatable to some, but generally I would hope that it wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

 

[zobothehobo]

(On the racial question, however, I do believe that Joss should have had a few more minorities represented in Sunnydale. The place was just TOO white to seem realistic)

Not really... It's a small town in Southern California. It'd be unrealistic if it wasn't about 80-90% white.

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------

Well, it is problematic that all of the main characters on the show are white. But that's nothing more than a reflection of American television in general at the time.

Most TV shows still have mainly white main characters.

I do pay a lot of attention to things like race when I watch a show because I just find it interesting. However, I don't think if a show doesn't have a lot of minorities it's because the show is racist or the show is reflecting on a taboo or stigma against minority characters, I think it's just because those races are minorities. If they were equally represented, it would break the "this is real life" feel of the show.


Now I'm going to agree with white avenger on why Buffy being a different race wouldn't have worked. It wouldn't have given the same effect. White women are typically portrayed in the media as the helpless ones. Black women are tough and strong, and women of Asian decent are often trained in martial arts and good fighters (again, this is they're portrayal not my opinions). It has more of an effect on the viewer to see the typically weak helpless girl be the one kicking some a**.

 

[Kean]

I've thought about this before but I have yet to come to a satisfactory opinion on it one way or another. What makes me stop and think about this is how an African American Buffy would have been treated during her high shcool years, running around, getting into fights and being known to carry weapons. I can't help but wonder would she have gotten away with as much as she did.

This actually reminds me of a piece of meta I saw on someone's livejournal. I can't quite remember whose but here is a piece of (wonderful) fan art for Supernatural. The art itself is by vito_excalibur. The meta I read with it basically said that if Sam and Dean were two African American or Hispanic guys driving around Southern America, in their black muscle car and totting the arsenal that they had that Supernatural would have had a totally different narrative.

It's definitely food for thought.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Not really... It's a small town in Southern California. It'd be unrealistic if it wasn't about 80-90% white.

Er. California is about 30-40% hispanic. 😉 Southern California even more so. *points at my location*

Most TV shows still have mainly white main characters.

I do pay a lot of attention to things like race when I watch a show because I just find it interesting. However, I don't think if a show doesn't have a lot of minorities it's because the show is racist or the show is reflecting on a taboo or stigma against minority characters, I think it's just because those races are minorities. If they were equally represented, it would break the "this is real life" feel of the show.

Racism isn't just about being mean to someone because they're a different color.
It's also about reinforcing stereotypes and underrepresenting POC/minorities. It's an institutional, societal thing as well. That's an important thing to remember when talking about race, because racism doesn't exist solely in individual, hateful attitudes. It's a systemic problem too, and one that unfortunately is reflected in our media and entertainment. BtVS included. The fact that there is so little diversity on BtVS isn't just something we (begrudgingly) have to accept as a reality of our times. It's a failure on Mutant Enemy's part as well. The fact that they had so little diversity on their show is a problem. Period.

If you don't really take note these things too much, you probably haven't checked Joss's terrible track record with race... Ugh. One word: Firefly 😡

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------

That said, I'd love having more diversity on BtVS. Give me an Asian Willow, or a Hispanic Xander, somebody, anybody! 😀 Especially some more Hispanic people! It's CALIFORNIA, for goodness sake.

I think Buffy would be a much different show if B herself was something other than white. A LOT different. I agree that the concept of Buffy Summers was supposed to be petite, blonde, and white. It makes a lot of sense (in the context of the narrative) that she be, well, white. But I disagree on a few of the points that women of color have been represented as kickass characters already. Women of other races may be prevalent in the blaxploitation and kung fu tropes, but that in no way means that they're celebrated in that way. Very often, those characters end up really two-dimensional and fetishized.

I really think the supporting cast could've used some more diversity though. Like, REALLY.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

Er. California is about 30-40% hispanic. 😉 Southern California even more so. *points at my location*

Yes, this is true. However, small towns, and I know this from experience, but small towns tend to stay predominantly ONE race. Sunnydale was a hole in the wall. If you look at Angel, which is set in Los Angeles, you will see that there is more racial diversity there.

Everyone plays this 'race' card too much with BtVS, and I ask...Is it REALLY that big of a deal? Why is that even a minor focus point? This isn't brought up occasionally, the 'race' thing on Buffy is brought up quite a bit. There's even LiveJournal contests out there to 're-race' the shows characters. You guys are giving more attention to racism with this; You are still further supporting the idea that blacks, hispanics, asians, and whites are somehow different, and therefore should be cast as such. It helps nothing.

It irritates me BEYOND belief that people feel the need to do this. Recast something simply for being 'too white.' If the door were swung the other way, and they were trying to recast something for being 'too Asian' or 'too Black' it would be considered racism, no doubt.

*Ducks flying tomatoes while backing out of thread*

 

[zobothehobo]

Er. California is about 30-40% hispanic. Southern California even more so. *points at my location*

Yeah, but it's a small suburban town. We have them here too... It's one of those well to do towns that started out as a neighborhood. Or that's kinda what I got from it. Also, I didn't do a lot of research and I certainly have never lived in SoCal but I looked up a few things and the towns on this list are predominately white. I know that's not all of Southern California but these towns I think were what Joss and co were looking for with Sunnydale. That being said, a few more Hispanic people couldn't have hurt.

Racism isn't just about being mean to someone because they're a different color.
It's also about reinforcing stereotypes and underrepresenting POC/minorities. It's an institutional, societal thing as well. That's an important thing to remember when talking about race, because racism doesn't exist solely in individual, hateful attitudes. It's a systemic problem too, and one that unfortunately is reflected in our media and entertainment. BtVS included. The fact that there is so little diversity on BtVS isn't just something we (begrudgingly) have to accept as a reality of our times. It's a failure on Mutant Enemy's part as well. The fact that they had so little diversity on their show is a problem. Period.

I am the last one to argue that racism is JUST hateful attitudes. However, film makers and TV producers have a dilemma. They can equally represent minorities with the majority race making them no long minorities and getting rid of the "real life" credibility, or they can run the risk of criticism for under-representation of minority races. In Buffy, the point was that Sunnydale was supposed to be the kind of community you wouldn't expect this sort of violence from. Much like how Buffy being the cheerleader type was supposed to shock the viewer, the town of Sunnydale being a well to do small town in Southern California composed of primarily white people was supposed to shock the viewer. If Sunnydale was the more actual typical town do you think it would have been as ironic? Just like with Buffy's race, Sunnydale was primarily white because of media portrayal.

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

But I disagree on a few of the points that women of color have been represented as kickass characters already. Women of other races may be prevalent in the blaxploitation and kung fu tropes, but that in no way means that they're celebrated in that way. Very often, those characters end up really two-dimensional and fetishized.

White women are often characterized as snobby helpless bitches... and very often are two-dimensional and fetishized ESPECIALLY blond cheerleader types like Buffy was supposed to be. This is breaking down those same issues... just by using the media portrayal of white female characters to their advantage.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Yes, this is true. However, small towns, and I know this from experience, but small towns tend to stay predominantly ONE race. Sunnydale was a hole in the wall. If you look at Angel, which is set in Los Angeles, you will see that there is more racial diversity there.

Everyone plays this 'race' card too much with BtVS, and I ask...Is it REALLY that big of a deal? Why is that even a minor focus point? This isn't brought up occasionally, the 'race' thing on Buffy is brought up quite a bit. There's even LiveJournal contests out there to 're-race' the shows characters. You guys are giving more attention to racism with this; You are still further supporting the idea that blacks, hispanics, asians, and whites are somehow different, and therefore should be cast as such. It helps nothing.

*Ducks flying tomatoes while backing out of thread*

O_O

I swear I mean this in the nicest way possible, but...

OF COURSE WE'RE DIFFERENT!! 😀 😀

What's wrong with race? What's wrong with a little color? 😛 I'm Asian. Yuuup, yellow girl speaking, and pretty damn happy about it. It's a bit insensitive to say that race doesn't matter, or imply that the solution to racism is colorblindness. I can tell you my race matters a whole lot to me. Of course I'm different from a white person. Of course I'm different from a Hispanic person, or a black person, or a Native American person. My race matters immensely to the way I frame myself in society, or how I see issues of culture and race. I'd like to see it fairly represented, plz.

Race is still an issue because race is still an issue. Of course I'm going to talk about it. Clamor, shout, write, and scream about it if I want to. Ignoring/glossing over the problem doesn't mean that there isn't one there to begin with.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing differences in races. Racism is about using those differences as means for discrimination. I repeat. Colorblindness is not the answer.

 

[zobothehobo]

Race is still an issue because race is still an issue

but by making an issue of this where there's absolutely no reason for it to be an issue, you're keeping it as such. Don't.

I define racism by treating one or more races (or group(s) of people) differently from another because of external or superficial reasons. That's EXACTLY what you'd be doing if you recasted someone for being "too white." We're different in terms of culture, yes. And as a very proud Greek American who always checks "other" on the "race" question because I'm technically not Caucasian, I understand that and I embrace it. I love my culture and I won't let it fade. However, I'm a humanist. We're all equal. That means you cannot treat one group differently than another. That INCLUDES putting your group as higher or oppressing a group in the media simply because of race.

I know it seems I'm contradicting myself, but I assure you I am not. I believe that in the media a challenge for film makers and TV producers is to figure out the setting and the accurate race ratios for that setting. If you make a setting that's supposed to be predominately white too minority heavy, it will look wrong. Likewise, if you take somewhere that's more minority heavy and make it too white heavy, it will look wrong. As I said before, film makers and TV producers have a dilemma. They can either represent all races equally and throw out their "real feel" of the setting or they can keep the race ratios and run the risk of being called racist. I personally think the second option is less racist because they're not changing the setting for the purpose of race. If you do something BECAUSE of race (that means ANYTHING), you're being racist in my opinion.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Yeah, but it's a small suburban town. We have them here too... It's one of those well to do towns that started out as a neighborhood. Or that's kinda what I got from it. Also, I didn't do a lot of research and I certainly have never lived in SoCal but I looked up a few things and the towns on this list are predominately white. I know that's not all of Southern California but these towns I think were what Joss and co were looking for with Sunnydale. That being said, a few more Hispanic people couldn't have hurt.

Uh...I can tell you for a fact that those towns are really affluent towns for the most part. Sunnydale was never meant to be an affluent, rich town whose whiteness just happened that way. For a single mother to own a home there, or someone like Xander with heavily implied family/financial issues, it's really unlikely that they'd live in one of these places, much less that Sunnydale was meant to represent towns like that.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Yes, this is true. However, small towns, and I know this from experience, but small towns tend to stay predominantly ONE race. Sunnydale was a hole in the wall. If you look at Angel, which is set in Los Angeles, you will see that there is more racial diversity there.

Everyone plays this 'race' card too much with BtVS, and I ask...Is it REALLY that big of a deal? Why is that even a minor focus point? This isn't brought up occasionally, the 'race' thing on Buffy is brought up quite a bit. There's even LiveJournal contests out there to 're-race' the shows characters. You guys are giving more attention to racism with this; You are still further supporting the idea that blacks, hispanics, asians, and whites are somehow different, and therefore should be cast as such. It helps nothing.

It irritates me BEYOND belief that people feel the need to do this. Recast something simply for being 'too white.' If the door were swung the other way, and they were trying to recast something for being 'too Asian' or 'too Black' it would be considered racism, no doubt.

*Ducks flying tomatoes while backing out of thread*

Well i agree to a point except theres a difference between white and asians, etc. How many whites are shown in television vs. chinese, puerto rican/mexican, etc. Ofcourse its racist to recast an mostly Asian cast/Latino cast, etc. cause how many are on TV to begin with....How is it racist to add some color to an all white cast....Television in general is mostly a white cast. To you it may not seem like a big deal to not have a lets say Puerto Rican on TV cause we're all people...but to Puerto Ricans its a big deal cause its someone to look at and maybe be proud of or be influenced, etc.....Think about this....what if Buffy a Female lead wasn't created and it was just another Man slaying vamps....Your saying Buffy being a female doesn't mean something to you?

Peace, Love, and Nappiness lmao jk 🙂

by the way i'm not talking about the Buffy cast...cause i gave my thoughts on that earlier in the thread but I'm talking about television in general.