What If: Riley did stake Spike?

[DeepBlueJoy]

If Riley had staked Spike it would have been a different show from there on. But I don't think the show runners would have considered it because of the two actors, James Marsters was always the popular one and the one who the audience wanted to watch.

There were plenty of times early on when it would have been justifiable. When he was a clear villain, there's no reason to keep him on.

Anytime in season 4 and it would have been accepted by the audience and Buffy would probably have been annoyed with Riley, but unlikely she would have lost sleep over it.

Once he stopped actively betraying them (from season 5 on, it starts to be something for which Riley would have faced consequences, at minimum from Dawn and even Joyce, who liked Spike.

After Intervention, there would have been audience out for blood if they'd killed Spike -given their lack of love for Riley, he's have been out in a shot. In canon even Buffy would have had difficulty with that after Intervention. Before that, his usefulness to the cause was equivocal. After that, I think is when he was actually part of the team. and part of the family. Once he sacrificed himself to protect Dawn, the audience would have revolted and so I think would have Buffy had she known.

I think this is Riley's return in season 6 was so cringey. His rationale for blaming Spike as doc always read wrong, even with the eggs. Riley's whole demeanor for that episode was so weird and he lied to Buffy by omission about being married. There are a lot of fans who think those eggs were planted. Anyway, later on, Riley really was so unpopular, even non Spike fans probably liked Spike better than Riley.

 

[NoShip]

After that, I think is when he was actually part of the team. and part of the family.

I don't think Spike was ever really part mof the team and never part of the family.

First off, Spike wasn't trustworthy without a soul and he really wasn't trustworthy in S7 until Giles and Wood broke the trigger. Even then, the only person who had any belief in Spike was Buffy.

Spike never tried to be a member of the team. Unsouled Spike spewed lots of vitriol and nastiness at the Scoobies. He tried to humiliate and denegrate and ridicule them when he wasn't trying to kill them or have them killed. Souled Spike never did anything to make amends for or even acknowledge what he'd said and done. The only person he was interested in was Buffy.

The Scoobies responded in kind ( minus the killing parts). I don't remember any attempt to make Spike part of the family.

Basically, Spike saw the Scoobies as a path to Buffy or a barrier to be overcome. The Scoobies saw Spike as dumb arrogant muscle to be used and discarded. In S7, Buffy saw Spike's potential and tried to encourage it.

 

[NoShip]

Correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is one of the writers (can't remember who) wanted it to be a 'one and done'? Buffy has sex with Spike, but immediately regrets it and they're never together again.

That writer was Marti Noxon.

Because of an utter dearth of ideas for storylines (after Whedon-Noxon and Co decided that "Life is The Big Bad" was boring to write) they decided to go with "the nasty sex" for several eps. The writers were so lacking in ideas that they took a spec script from Whedon's personal assistant. That spec script became Normal Again.

Interestingly enough, UPN decided that Buffy needed some Standards & Practices after some of the raunchier Spuffy sex eps. Also, the flame-out on ratings, given what UPN paid for Buffy contributed to the firing of UPN's president (Dean Valentine) and his replacement by a Les Moonves protoge (Dawn Ostroff) who brought a very corporate way of doing things to UPN.

 

[garfan]

I don't think Spike was ever really part mof the team and never part of the family.

First off, Spike wasn't trustworthy without a soul and he really wasn't trustworthy in S7 until Giles and Wood broke the trigger. Even then, the only person who had any belief in Spike was Buffy.

Spike never tried to be a member of the team. Unsouled Spike spewed lots of vitriol and nastiness at the Scoobies. He tried to humiliate and denegrate and ridicule them when he wasn't trying to kill them or have them killed. Souled Spike never did anything to make amends for or even acknowledge what he'd said and done. The only person he was interested in was Buffy.

The Scoobies responded in kind ( minus the killing parts). I don't remember any attempt to make Spike part of the family.

Basically, Spike saw the Scoobies as a path to Buffy or a barrier to be overcome. The Scoobies saw Spike as dumb arrogant muscle to be used and discarded. In S7, Buffy saw Spike's potential and tried to encourage it.

the status quo during the run from Glory to Buffy's resurrection feels like a member of the team

 

[NoShip]

Running away from everyone and everything isn't exactly a mature response, though... which is fitting, since she was seventeen then, and is twenty-two when the series ends. Her response should look different for different relationships and at different points in her life. I don't think it's fair to say that she never cared about Spike at all just because she didn't react as strongly as she did when Angel died; they're different situations entirely.

There are not too many 22 year olds that I would call mature. And there are a few 17 year olds I would call very mature. It really depends on the indivisual. I'd say running away was all Buffy had left after a season in pergatory.

I agree that they are different situations. But, I think she cared much more for Angel than Spike. The indicator, of course, is Dawn. Buffy sends Dawn, the most inportant person in her life away from the final fight (Dawn doesn't stay gone). Of the vamps, she sends Angel to safety, not Spike. So I think that Buffy cared much more for Angel than Spike.

 

[NotASlayer]

Buffy would have been the only person who truly cared if Spike had been dusted, and even then only in S7 when his abuse had finally broken her. No-one else would have spared it more than a moment's thought, and most would have cheered it. And that's assuming anyone even realised he was dust.

Dawn may have liked Spike's stories, but she had no more attachment to him than he did to her, and she ended up disliking him intensely. Joyce may have been nice to Spike, and I do believe he actually liked her, but it's not like they hung out watching Passions together - admittedly, a missed opportunity. 😀

For Buffy to decide that Spike is nice after Intervention is monumentally icky. Maybe tolerate him, but he built a sexbot of her. That is just so creepy.

As @NoShip says, Spike was never a member of the team, never tried to make himself a member of the team, never treated the others well and in S5 he tried to kill Buffy, nearly got Riley killed, stalked Buffy, kidnapped her, chained her up, built the sexbot, tried to intimidate her into non-existent feelings just like any creepy, obsessed , narcissistic stalker, broke into her house, sniffed her clothes, stole her underwear and more. This is not someone anyone will miss.

Yes, if Spike had been dusted, some of the audience would have been happy. But, unlike when they went off forums to judge Spike, this time the reaction would have been reflected in the viewing figures, and a vocal minority would be shown to be just that, a small percentage of the audience. Even those who like Spike don't necessarily like what he did in S5 onwards. Spike's story was utterly mishandled from the end of S4.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I don't think Spike was ever really part mof the team and never part of the family.

First off, Spike wasn't trustworthy without a soul and he really wasn't trustworthy in S7 until Giles and Wood broke the trigger. Even then, the only person who had any belief in Spike was Buffy.

Spike never tried to be a member of the team. Unsouled Spike spewed lots of vitriol and nastiness at the Scoobies. He tried to humiliate and denegrate and ridicule them when he wasn't trying to kill them or have them killed. Souled Spike never did anything to make amends for or even acknowledge what he'd said and done. The only person he was interested in was Buffy.

The Scoobies responded in kind ( minus the killing parts). I don't remember any attempt to make Spike part of the family.

Basically, Spike saw the Scoobies as a path to Buffy or a barrier to be overcome. The Scoobies saw Spike as dumb arrogant muscle to be used and discarded. In S7, Buffy saw Spike's potential and tried to encourage it.

Agreed.
Spike was never part of the 'team'. He was....there.
He never really interacts with anyone (outside of Buffy) except Giles, and that was unavoidable for a time as he was living under his roof.

He never makes an effort with anyone, treats them with contempt. If anything, it was a missed opportunity to have him create a bit of a friendly link with Willow since she stopped him from making another attempt at staking himself in s4 (some might dislike Willow for that! 😂).

Souled Spike was the same - never interacts really with the Scoobies, and if he's forced to (e.g Andrew) he again treats them with contempt.

I'd describe the Scoobies merely tolerating him.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2025

Running away from everyone and everything isn't exactly a mature response, though... which is fitting, since she was seventeen then, and is twenty-two when the series ends. Her response should look different for different relationships and at different points in her life. I don't think it's fair to say that she never cared about Spike at all just because she didn't react as strongly as she did when Angel died; they're different situations entirely.

Also, Buffy didn't have to personally be the one to stab Spike. She stood by while he sacrificed himself, and after everything she has been through,

Angel died by Buffy's hand. And if you look at it - technically Spike died by Buffy's hand in Chosen as he took the amulet she offered up. Oops! 😉

I'm able to believe that Buffy can make peace with the fact that people are going to die and she can't always change that.

In her role as 'general' - she's more accepting of Potentials she doesn't really have a connection with. They're not friends.

If Riley had staked Spike it would have been a different show from there on. But I don't think the show runners would have considered it because of the two actors, James Marsters was always the popular one and the one who the audience wanted to watch.

There were plenty of times early on when it would have been justifiable. When he was a clear villain, there's no reason to keep him on.

Anytime in season 4 and it would have been accepted by the audience and Buffy would probably have been annoyed with Riley, but unlikely she would have lost sleep over it.

Once he stopped actively betraying them (from season 5 on, it starts to be something for which Riley would have faced consequences, at minimum from Dawn and even Joyce, who liked Spike.

It went beyond s4. There were a number of moments it was perfectly acceptable for Spike to have been staked.

Riley wouldn't face any 'consequences' from Dawn. She crushed on him and I'm sure she'd eventually get over it.
Joyce? Remember, "get the hell away from my daughter?" in s2?

She's concerned that Spike has feelings for Buffy, and I don't imagine if Buffy filled in her mother on Spike's antics in Crush that she'd really give a crap that Spike was dust. Given what Joyce was going through, Buff likely didn't burden her mother with the details.

The characters wouldn't really care - now, the audience of Spike stans, that's a different story.

After Intervention, there would have been audience out for blood if they'd killed Spike -given their lack of love for Riley, he's have been out in a shot. In canon even Buffy would have had difficulty with that after Intervention. Before that, his usefulness to the cause was equivocal. After that, I think is when he was actually part of the team. and part of the family. Once he sacrificed himself to protect Dawn, the audience would have revolted and so I think would have Buffy had she known.

I think this is Riley's return in season 6 was so cringey. His rationale for blaming Spike as doc always read wrong, even with the eggs. Riley's whole demeanor for that episode was so weird and he lied to Buffy by omission about being married. There are a lot of fans who think those eggs were planted. Anyway, later on, Riley really was so unpopular, even non Spike fans probably liked Spike better than Riley.

The link to Doublemeat Palace two episodes earlier says otherwise - Spike tells Buffy he can "get money" - and his 'holding eggs for a friend' which we discover in As You Were was likely a form of payment.

Say what you want about Riley, but his appearance and his speech to Buffy was pivotal, and helped her begin to see the light again. She needed a friend, someone who still loved and respected her. It's a turning point for her.

And there is no way Spike was seen as part of "the family". He's a useful tool due to vamp strength.

 

[Btvs fan]

Agreed.
Spike was never part of the 'team'. He was....there.
He never really interacts with anyone (outside of Buffy) except Giles, and that was unavoidable for a time as he was living under his roof.

He never makes an effort with anyone, treats them with contempt. If anything, it was a missed opportunity to have him create a bit of a friendly link with Willow since she stopped him from making another attempt at staking himself in s4 (some might dislike Willow for that! 😂).

Souled Spike was the same - never interacts really with the Scoobies, and if he's forced to (e.g Andrew) he again treats them with contempt.

I'd describe the Scoobies merely tolerating him.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2025

Angel died by Buffy's hand. And if you look at it - technically Spike died by Buffy's hand in Chosen as he took the amulet she offered up. Oops! 😉



In her role as 'general' - she's more accepting of Potentials she doesn't really have a connection with. They're not friends.






It went beyond s4. There were a number of moments it was perfectly acceptable for Spike to have been staked.

Riley wouldn't face any 'consequences' from Dawn. She crushed on him and I'm sure she'd eventually get over it.
Joyce? Remember, "get the hell away from my daughter?" in s2?

She's concerned that Spike has feelings for Buffy, and I don't imagine if Buffy filled in her mother on Spike's antics in Crush that she'd really give a crap that Spike was dust. Given what Joyce was going through, Buff likely didn't burden her mother with the details.

The characters wouldn't really care - now, the audience of Spike stans, that's a different story.



The link to Doublemeat Palace two episodes earlier says otherwise - Spike tells Buffy he can "get money" - and his 'holding eggs for a friend' which we discover in As You Were was likely a form of payment.

Say what you want about Riley, but his appearance and his speech to Buffy was pivotal, and helped her begin to see the light again. She needed a friend, someone who still loved and respected her. It's a turning point for her.

And there is no way Spike was seen as part of "the family". He's a useful tool due to vamp strength.

That's mental gymnastics by fans as a way to justify Spike being an International Arms dealer whose also really stupid.
The real reason was that Petre was writing Riley fan fiction and ranting about the fans not getting the character (Whedon literally said Riley wasn't accepted because the fans didn't want Buffy to be happy!) making it make sense was not a priority (see Sam and Riley timeline which doesn't add up)

 

[hoponlilmama]

That's mental gymnastics by fans as a way to justify Spike being an International Arms dealer whose also really stupid.
The real reason was that Petre was writing Riley fan fiction and ranting about the fans not getting the character (Whedon literally said Riley wasn't accepted because the fans didn't want Buffy to be happy!) making it make sense was not a priority (see Sam and Riley timeline which doesn't add up)

I wouldn't say he's an 'arms dealer' but was more of a 'middle man'. Nevertheless, there is a link from the DMP episode where Spike says, "I can get money" and two episodes later in AYW where we witness Spike partaking in a scheme. It's not plainly stated, but anyone can put two and two together.

100% agree on the messed up timeline in regards to Riley and Sam, but as we've seen in the series, it's not the first time writers have screwed up on details (remember how Buffy had two dates of birth?!).

Riley fan fic, Spuffy fan fic - s6 was just an entire season of fan fic! 😉

 

[NotASlayer]

Agreed.
Spike was never part of the 'team'. He was....there.
He never really interacts with anyone (outside of Buffy) except Giles, and that was unavoidable for a time as he was living under his roof.

He never makes an effort with anyone, treats them with contempt. If anything, it was a missed opportunity to have him create a bit of a friendly link with Willow since she stopped him from making another attempt at staking himself in s4 (some might dislike Willow for that! 😂).

And when Buffy stupidly recruited his help at the end of S5, he was perfectly willing to leave everyone else in the team behind to be tortured to death by Glory.

It went beyond s4. There were a number of moments it was perfectly acceptable for Spike to have been staked.

Yes, and even ignoring his general level of stake-worthy creepiness and stalking, episodes he definitely should not have survived include Out of My Mind, Crush and Intervention.

The characters wouldn't really care - now, the audience of Spike stans, that's a different story.

And nowhere is this more obvious than in S7 when the horror that everyone not called Buffy showed at Giles plotting with Wood behind everyone's back to kill souled Spike was stunning in its general nonexistence. If people didn't care when Spike had a soul, they are certainly not going to care when he didn't.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Yes, and even ignoring his general level of stake-worthy creepiness and stalking, episodes he definitely should not have survived include Out of My Mind, Crush and Intervention.

Blast, meant to specifically say: "There were a number of moments in s5 it was perfectly acceptable for Spike to have been staked" but you understood the point I was making.

S6 too - for that matter....

 

[Btvs fan]

I wouldn't say he's an 'arms dealer' but was more of a 'middle man'. Nevertheless, there is a link from the DMP episode where Spike says, "I can get money" and two episodes later in AYW where we witness Spike partaking in a scheme. It's not plainly stated, but anyone can put two and two together.

100% agree on the messed up timeline in regards to Riley and Sam, but as we've seen in the series, it's not the first time writers have screwed up on details (remember how Buffy had two dates of birth?!).

Riley fan fic, Spuffy fan fic - s6 was just an entire season of fan fic! 😉

No that's reaching. Spike never uses that as a defense nor did the episode attempt to use it as a reason (even though it would've worked)
Instead Spike's defence was "You know what I am" ie he's a souless demon
Let's not also forget that this episode has Buffy literally smelling of grease and walking into the literal light at the end. So no I don't think your reason was there intent

 

[garfan]

There are not too many 22 year olds that I would call mature. And there are a few 17 year olds I would call very mature. It really depends on the indivisual. I'd say running away was all Buffy had left after a season in pergatory.

writers always try to pull that, but I'm not willing to play along. They're mature enough to save the world, they're mature

 

[NoShip]

writers always try to pull that, but I'm not willing to play along. They're mature enough to save the world, they're mature

My experience with 18-22 year old soldiers in Iraq is that they were unbelievably mature on the battlefield and unbelievably immature back on the base. Training and discipline will only get you so far.

 

[hoponlilmama]

No that's reaching. Spike never uses that as a defense nor did the episode attempt to use it as a reason (even though it would've worked)

Can you confirm if the writers ever said anything about it? If not, then it's both speculation on your part and on mine. So you can't tell me I'm "reaching".

Was Spike's line of, "I can get money" intentional or accidental by the writers? Who knows then, but it's easy for the audience to make that link.

Riley calling Spike 'Doctor' was silly as there's no basis to it, and Spike can't exactly run some major operation, especially considering that Buffy's coming to his crypt to have sex, but as Spike later says when caught:
"If I may, the thing of it is, I'm holding these for a friend, who.."

So, a middle-man. You think Spike's holding demon eggs out of the goodness of his soulless heart? He's obviously doing it for cash.

Instead Spike's defence was "You know what I am" ie he's a souless demon

The "you know what I am" can refer to the fact that Buffy's ignoring he's an evil, soulless demon and coming to him for sex, and can refer to the fact that Spike is going to partake in schemes that aren't exactly above board.

Buffy: "And I'm not here to bust your chops about your stupid scheme, either. That's just you. I should have remembered."

Let's not also forget that this episode has Buffy literally smelling of grease and walking into the literal light at the end. So no I don't think your reason was there intent

She's fine after a couple of showers. 😉

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Personally I wished that Spike had staked Riley.
Riley may not have been a vampire but staking a humans heart will still cause the victim to die.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Personally I wished that Spike had staked Riley.
Riley may not have been a vampire but staking a humans heart will still cause the victim to die.

😍

A particularly good way to kill a sociopath who stabs people with plastic stakes for E$#% & giggles. I always thought that any remaining goodwill for Riley was pretty much gone after he staked a defenseless Spike... for the purpose of torture. Honestly, I think there was more than one time when actually staking Spike might have been a rational choice... Fake staking him, OTOH, however, was simply gratuitous torture.

I would have had zero sympathy for Riley had Spike (already in agony do to the 'faux' staking) had grabbed the plastic stake and returned the favour.

 

[NotASlayer]

A particularly good way to kill a sociopath who stabs people with plastic stakes for E$#% & giggles. I always thought that any remaining goodwill for Riley was pretty much gone after he staked a defenseless Spike... for the purpose of torture. Honestly, I think there was more than one time when actually staking Spike might have been a rational choice... Fake staking him, OTOH, however, was simply gratuitous torture.

Except he deliberately didn't stake Spike, because Spike was defenceless. Yes, he was perfectly justified to stake Spike, for many, many reasons, but because Spike couldn't fight back, Riley was unable to non-sociopathically stake the actual sociopath who deserved it.

Riley doesn't go randomly fake staking people-eating monsters for fun - not people, people-eating monsters - and he refused to do this to Spike, however justified. This isn't Riley being a sociopath; it was him being too nice. This is something that happened once to the individual who, not that long back, had deliberately conspired with Adam to get a whole bunch of what at the very least were people that Riley knew killed and had been stalking Buffy, and he still couldn't bring himself to actually kill someone who couldn't fight back.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Except he deliberately didn't stake Spike, because Spike was defenceless. Yes, he was perfectly justified to stake Spike, for many, many reasons, but because Spike couldn't fight back, Riley was unable to non-sociopathically stake the actual sociopath who deserved it.

Riley doesn't go randomly fake staking people-eating monsters for fun - not people, people-eating monsters - and he refused to do this to Spike, however justified. This isn't Riley being a sociopath; it was him being too nice. This is something that happened once to the individual who, not that long back, had deliberately conspired with Adam to get a whole bunch of what at the very least were people that Riley knew killed and had been stalking Buffy, and he still couldn't bring himself to actually kill someone who couldn't fight back.

If physical and psychic torture is your idea of 'nice' I am terrified. Riley is a monster with a soul.

Execution or killing in war is justifiable.

Torture of any defenceless being is never just. Riley is supposed to be a military man. Even if he has no personal moral values (and i don't think he does), the laws of military engagement do not support torture.

Even the questionable "enhanced interrogation" does not apply. Riley simply did it because he got off on causing pain.

The whole initiative was quite close to the Nazi experiments in WWII - this is what Riley happily embraced.

Riley is something far worse than Spike or even Angelus. He is reckless, selfish and utterly wilful.

The only reason Riley tortured Spike is that Spike revealed Riley's wrongdoing. Wrongdoing that could have put the mission at risk, not just killed Buffy and co.

Riley punished Spike for doing the right thing.

It is funny how some people hold Demon Spike to a human standard that they don't expect of Angelus. He is a demon. That Demon Spike often rises above that demon is a *credit* to him. That he fights for his soul after facing his own evil and regretting his capacity to hurt those he cares for is an exceptional choice *by an actual demon*. That makes Spike exceptional.

His DEMON recognized his deficits. Can you imagine Angelus doing that?
Can you imagine Angelus accepting Glory's torture to protect Dawn? That was a DEMON choosing the moral road!

By contrast, the vile and malevolent spoilt child Riley played parlour games with darkness and could have put Buffy, her family & friends at risk.

(1) he could have been turned and easily overpowered Dawn, Joyce or Xander and turned them.
(2) he was hanging around with lots of dangerous demons, any of whom could have hurt Buffy & co and the mission.

Of the two, i consider Demon Spike to be the superior human. Isn't that ironic?

 

[NotASlayer]

If physical and psychic torture is your idea of 'nice' I am terrified. Riley is a monster with a soul.

Execution or killing in war is justifiable.

Torture of any defenceless being is never just. Riley is supposed to be a military man. Even if he has no personal moral values (and i don't think he does), the laws of military engagement do not support torture.

Even the questionable "enhanced interrogation" does not apply. Riley simply did it because he got off on causing pain.

The whole initiative was quite close to the Nazi experiments in WWII - this is what Riley happily embraced.

Riley is something far worse than Spike or even Angelus. He is reckless, selfish and utterly wilful.

The only reason Riley tortured Spike is that Spike revealed Riley's wrongdoing. Wrongdoing that could have put the mission at risk, not just killed Buffy and co.

Riley punished Spike for doing the right thing.

It is funny how some people hold Demon Spike to a human standard that they don't expect of Angelus. He is a demon. That Demon Spike often rises above that demon is a *credit* to him. That he fights for his soul after facing his own evil and regretting his capacity to hurt those he cares for is an exceptional choice *by an actual demon*. That makes Spike exceptional.

His DEMON recognized his deficits. Can you imagine Angelus doing that?
Can you imagine Angelus accepting Glory's torture to protect Dawn? That was a DEMON choosing the moral road!

By contrast, the vile and malevolent spoilt child Riley played parlour games with darkness and could have put Buffy, her family & friends at risk.

(1) he could have been turned and easily overpowered Dawn, Joyce or Xander and turned them.
(2) he was hanging around with lots of dangerous demons, any of whom could have hurt Buffy & co and the mission.

Of the two, i consider Demon Spike to be the superior human. Isn't that ironic?

Torture? Based on one scene where Riley literally didn't do what you accuse him of? Getting rid of Spike wouldn't have endangered anything, because he was worse than useless in his help.

If Riley had wanted to torture Spike, he could have. If he wanted to kill Spike, he could have. He chose not to. He did not get off on inflicting pain on a poor, innocent... murderous, people-eating soulless monster.

The right thing? Spike had conspired with Adam to cause a war, got a whole lot of people killed and would have got even more killed, nearly got Riley killed trying to kill Buffy, had been stalking Buffy, stealing her things, undermining her relationship - yes, Riley didn't do well, but both Buffy and Spike had their roles to play in destroying the relationship. Sure, Riley lashed out, briefly, in a non-fatal way. The equivalent of punching someone in the face. Spike, a master of psychological abuse and emotional torture deserved more. If Riley had been a tad less nice, he would have killed Spike (though it would have been better to send him to Angel after S4, which would have made both shows better). Which would have been the nicest gift to leave Buffy with, saving her from several years of abuse.

Riley is an imperfect person. But Spike is a monster. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but a monster should never be romanticised. Spike didn't start doing anything truly to try and change until seeing Hell with a soul and getting his hands chopped off. At that point, he started to improve.