What is the most 'evil' thing that Angel does?

[thetopher]

Twist dictionary definitions?

Sure.

Your interpretation is different from mine

Nope, words have meanings. The english language is an old one full of complexities and subtle nuance and word choice matters.
Example: One time vandals got into my uncle's allotment and trashed it utterly- stealing vegetables I think- and he said 'Those a-holes just went and *expletive* despoiled my allotment. It's ruined.'
I didn't think 'jeez, somebody's gone and raped his allotment.'

If you think a mind can be raped then we just agree to disagree. There are better, more accurate terms in my opinion. Mind-rape seems needlessly provocotive and cheapens the word rape, especially when we're talking about a fictional something that isn't really possible in the real world.

Cordelia calls it as she sees it and she calls it rape - Tara ends to be more circumspect so she calls it violation.

Tara was an angry victim so I'll take her opinion over Cordelia's thanks.

And what do the victims say? Wesley? Gunn? Connor? What do they say about Angel's actions? Are they as angry as Tara?

Perhaps Fred, Gunn and Wes would never have had buyers remorse - they never had a chance to find out though because their loss of memory created a separate reality for them. Again - accurate, not emotive, using canon.

You can't use 'perhaps' and say its canon. Perhaps is the realm of possibility- that's simply fanon.

 

[Silverspike]

Well If I remember correctly Wesley went practically bonkers when he found out how Angel had soled them all out and altered their memories.

 

[bespangeled]

If you think a mind can be raped then we just agree to disagree. There are better, more accurate terms in my opinion. Mind-rape seems needlessly provocotive and cheapens the word rape, especially when we're talking about a fictional something that isn't really possible in the real world.

I think I am quoting Cordelia - and I have acknowledged that you don't like the word used in the show. However, the term is canon, and can be used to reference the fact that Angel - let them rape the memories of your friends who trust you, as Cordelia said . I already mentioned that it isn't really possible in the real world.

And what do the victims say? Wesley? Gunn? Connor? What do they say about Angel's actions? Are they as angry as Tara?

Fred died, and Gunn never knew. Gunn took responsibility for Fred's death. Wesley was devastated and betrayed. Angel never took responsibility for his choice and what he did to his friends, how that affected all of them, nor did he ever tell Gunn. Connor had no idea that Angel allowed the memories of his friends to be raped in order to take the easy way out and give Connor a new life, so he was okay with it.

I love Angel dearly, but he really has a bad habit of making choices for other people - arranging the world according to his needs and desires. YMMV

You can't use 'perhaps' and say its canon. Perhaps is the realm of possibility- that's simply fanon.

Wesley said a new reality was created by the choice Angel made to allow his friends memories to be raped. That's canon. The new reality changed them - that's canon. Since they were robbed of their memories they were robbed of the ability to use those memories and make an informed decision about W&H. That was part of the new reality.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Well If I remember correctly Wesley went practically bonkers when he found out how Angel had soled them all out and altered their memories.

Drama Queen Wesley joined W&H of his own free will. All of them did. And Wes said 'Angel had sold them out' before he smashes the box that gives him back the original memories. Wes said that line in reaction to how Angel was acting during late in the Season and is totally unrelated to the mind-altering spell.

 

[Kana]

Personally, the most evil thing Angel ever did was allow his show to be cancelled. Seriously though let's run down the list:

Letting Darla/Dru/Harmony live

I suppose this is the first of the "Inaction vs Action" argument. I suppose th argument becomes: is it worse to kill or let someone die? To a degree Buffy and the other Scoobies have known that Dru and Spike were around killing. Hey even Buffy wanted to send Vampire Willow back to her dimension.

I'd still contend that Angel deliberately killing someone relatively would count as a greater moral trangression than failing to kill a vampire. It may be that emotionally he was unable to do it because of the familial feelings he had for at least Dru and Darla. This is similiar to Buffy failing to kill Angelus. Her not killing him wasn't a moral decision. She didn't believe it was the right thing to do. We know Angel struggled emotionally to kill Darla unless, he saw her directly threaten somone he cared about or was at least innocent.

Refusing to help Buffy in pre-show/S1/S2, in spite of seeing her in the risk of death every day

Angel did help Buffy. He saved her and the Scoobies lives. Against more dangerous foes, it's possible that Angel wasn't sure of his own power. To his credit, he became more and more involved as time went on. I see this as him believing in himself more and more.

Setting a bunch of violent gladiator demons free

The Ring introduced us to the concept of demon rights. The concept of human rights is instinctual for us because we are human. Even criminals have rights in most civilised societies. Demons aren't not human but all of them seem to sentient and many sapient. Arguably their 'rights' would depend on how an individual demon treated humans. The demons that were set free at least seemed affable. Trepkos, for example, seemed quite honourable. In any case the McNaramas were the real villains of the piece as they clearly don't value demon or human life. The best thing is relying on the system of research and detroy (where applicable).

Helping Darla/Dru kill W&H lawyers

It has to be said, the lawyers did bring this upon themselves the main problem is that Angel's actions were based upon anger rather than justice. This temptation into darkness is exactly what W&H would want. Also, what about the lawyers friends and family? Did they deserve to die?

Performing dark magic to get Connor back

Yep, pretty ****ed up. I like that Gunn called Angel on this. The problem is that Angel tends to act rashly when he cannot deal with his emotions and that is bad for the people around him and the people he is trying to protect. No evil per se and it's a trait that needs to be kept in check.

Allowing his soul to be extracted

This wasn't even Angel's idea and he did it with the best of intentions. He also wanted to make sure the gang made provisions. If anything it was incredibly selfless. Angelus is the thing he fears people seeing the most. To me it was the actions of a guy willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the perceived Big Bad.

Global memory modification about Connor

I wrote this on another forum:

Well the moral issue for me comes to down Angel taking away something that he didn't have the right to take away. All our memories form a part of us and we use such information to make decisions.

However we cannot reasonable argue if any of the Fang Gang would have objected [to joining W&H] if it were not for the memory wipe. The reason being, we still don't know how much the Connor-related memories would have affected their decision.

Selling himself to W&H

I don't actually see this as evil so much as misguided. Incidently, it doesn't actually in itself negate the good that Angel did under W&H employ. It was in a way healthy that Angel felt uneasy about working for W&H. If we worry about our moral certainty, there is hope for our moral salvation.

Manipulating his friends on board for the suicide assassination mission

If by manipulate, you mean, be honest about the danger and intent, then well...This is actually insulting to Fang Gang to think they lack that much agency.

Allowing Twilight to control him

Yep, that's the one. Killing 100os of people because he couldn't be bothered to question destiny, which has been shown time and again to be mutable and up for intepretation. I don't know who I'm loathe to forgive more, Angel or the writers.

 

[Dolores]

Personally have to go with Jenny Calendar murder and the set up in Giles' house then purposely going to Buffy's house to watch her and Willow fall apart whilst on the phone. Cruel.

 

[Mr Trick]

Personally have to go with Jenny Calendar murder and the set up in Giles' house then purposely going to Buffy's house to watch her and Willow fall apart whilst on the phone. Cruel.

Yes, but that was Angelus, and its no surprise that he would do such wicked things.

 

[Dolores]

Yes, but that was Angelus, and its no surprise that he would do such wicked things.

True! In that case - I'd have to go with the w&h lawyers. I always remember that image of Holland's wife lying on the floor dying. Did she survive?