What is the most 'evil' thing that Angel does?

[Iwearthecheese]

But she didn't go back, did she? Life in Cleveland and London, and even fighting demons, are far better than life at a Californian prison, I'm sure. She is human, she killed humans, she had to pay by human Law.

Faith was a slayer- not a human- and if she had to pay by human law then why did Buffy try and muder her in cold blood? That wasn't human justice, that was slayer vs. slayer justice.
Faith chose to go to prison to make amends for her past crimes and then chose to break out and actively atone for them when she was needed. She is still doing so and its clearly evident that she is doing more good in the world than she would be locked up in jail.
Also she shows no signs of regressing or threatening innocents or putting people in danger. ( as far as I know).

If we judge everyone by Faith's standard- Willow and Andrew should've gone to jail (as so should Jonathan instead of simply running away to Mexico for a nice holiday).

Spike and Angel should be staked because they're vampires and both have killed with a soul. That's slayer justice for vampires that kill humans.

Xander, Giles, Anya and Buffy have also been responsible for the deaths of people. Jail for them as well.

Of the top of my head Angel did way more than resurrrect Gile, since he stopped Whistler from trying to do the same exact thing Twilight!Angel tried for similar reasons- because it 'needed to happen' for the world to evolve. Angel stopped Eyghon, Whistler, Pearl & Nash and saved the world. Again.

Doesn't make it okay though does it? I mean, with Angel's iffy tack history of making the 'big hard' decisions then there's every chance he can do it again. He has a pattern of behaviour of doing morally murky things that tend to lead to other people dying.
He should've been staked by somebody during the whole Teilight aftermath. Xander was a prime candidate and I would've cheered.

 

[gite63]

And that the reason I stopped reading them. It was a total train wreck. If i had first saw Angel in the comics I would have thought Angel was totally evil even though he not .

The comics are canon, though; you can dislike them, but they are canon.
 

Faith was a slayer- not a human- and if she had to pay by human law then why did Buffy try and muder her in cold blood? That wasn't human justice, that was slayer vs. slayer justice.

Faith is human and killed humans; Buffy tried to kill another Slayer, and that was wrong, yes - although Faith was bad, allied herself with the Mayor and was responsible for Angel's sickness, and I, for one, am more concerned about Buffy (like Xander said, "I don't want to lose you"), than with Faith.

Xander, Giles, Anya and Buffy have also been responsible for the deaths of people. Jail for them as well.

Xander deaths caused by the summoning of Sweet? That's something very shady, I think Dawn would be the guilty party... Anya was a demon, Buffy didn't kill anyone, if she caused death, she was on a mission. Giles killed, but he had his reasons.

Also she shows no signs of regressing or threatening innocents or putting people in danger.

I totally agree - I don't believe Faith will ever be bad/evil again.

Spike and Angel should be staked because they're vampires and both have killed with a soul. That's slayer justice for vampires that kill humans.

And that's what many people insist that should have happened/happen, but with Faith... it's OK she only stayed a couple of years in prison for murder.

Anya killed, reverted her work, and was punished twice: became human again and her friend was sacrificed because of her. Spike got a soul for himself and died fighting, and returned to fight some more (and he didn't kill anyone with a soul - he was controlled and forced to kill); Angel suffered for years, isolated himself, and later start fighting for the good. So, nothing so special about Faith having been a couple of years in jail.
 

He should've been staked by somebody during the whole Teilight aftermath. Xander was a prime candidate and I would've cheered.

That was the only time Angel should have been terminated, without any second thought or regret. And yes, Xander was the one who should have done it, and it would have been totally justified by what just had happened, and the rush of bad feelings at that moment.

Of course, I'm glad that it didn't happen, because a Buffyverse without Angel would not be the Buffyverse. But I also think that it was too much Xander apologising (in S10) for having punched Angel...

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Faith is human and killed humans; Buffy tried to kill another Slayer

I'm sorry but you're contradicting yourself here. If Faith is human then Buffy tried to kill another human and should be in jail for attempted murder- human justice.

If Faith is a slayer then its different circumstances, Faith kills, Faith goes to jail, gets her head straight and then activey atones for the great evils she has done. She doesn't make excuses or demand anything, she just helps.

Xander deaths caused by the summoning of Sweet? That's something very shady

It's canon according to 'Selfless', the writers showed that scene to confirm that Xander did in fact summon Sweet. It's stupid but there it is.
What consequences does Xander bring upon himself?

And that's what many people insist that should have happened/happen, but with Faith... it's OK she only stayed a couple of years in prison for murder.

Not okay, just better than anybody else on the show that does evil things.

Anya killed, reverted her work, and was punished twice: became human again and her friend was sacrificed because of her

Anyanka with a soul spent a thousand years delivering bloody vengeance upon the masses. It's complicated since her evil actions are liked to her having powers. When she doesn't have powers she clearly isn't a threat. But nor does she face any sort of punishment or consequences for her actions.
But then she's not alone in that, as I've stated.

Spike got a soul for himself and died fighting, and returned to fight some more (and he didn't kill anyone with a soul - he was controlled and forced to kill

He did kill them because they are dead- its that simple.
He may've not meant to kill them but they are still dead. There were circustances sure, but they're always circumstances with some characters. Xander has circumstance for trying to assault Buffy in 'The Pack', Willow has circumstances when she goes all Dark Willow.
Circumstances doesn't wipe the slate clean ands mean that these actions 'don't matter', it might mitigate but it doesn't excuse 100%.

Slayer doctrine says that vampires who kill get staked, human law says that humans who kill go to jail so get-outs.

My point- If Faith should've spent her life in jail without getting the chance to make amends then so should've everyone else who ever killed a human and Angel and Spike should've been staked the moment they started killing humans again. No second chances.

Angel suffered for years, isolated himself, and later start fighting for the good

He also killed with a soul, turned somebody into a vampire in the '40's and allowed innocents to die in the 50's.
That's not even touching some of the questionable acts over the course of his show.

So, nothing so special about Faith having been a couple of years in jail.

Except Faith accepts total and utter responsibility for her actions, is punished for them and goes on become better/reform and not re-offend. Therefore jail has done its job (prison to is to punish and to make sure the criminal does not re-offend) and more jail-time would simply mean that she couldnt' actively atone for her past actions. If Faith didn't continue fighting and doing her job then you might have a point but clearly is doing good such as guarding the Hellmouth in S8 (and presumably after).

I love Willow but not even she does anything close to this. She feels bad, doesn't revert to evil (few characters do actually) but isn't punished through years of captivity.

Hold all characters tot he same standard or not at all, you can't have both.

OT- Angel has reverted through his actions in 'Twilight' so therefore he shouldn't be given yet another chance. I also get why almost every slayer walked away from Buffy in disgust (athough trying to beat her up was out of line imo).

 

[Silverspike]

Imo If you take those terrible comics onboard (yes I know it was Whedon's idea, but god what was he thinking!!) then it's the whole Twilight deal. He knowingly killed hundreds of humans as well as Slayers doing what he did.

To say nothing of hounding Buffy into a corner all because he wanted to create the 'perfect' world.

 

[nightshade]

Can we keep this on topic, and not just write a sentence at the bottom that's on topic.

 

[Silverspike]

May I ask who are you referring too?

 

[thetopher]

Doesn't make it okay though does it? I mean, with Angel's iffy tack history of making the 'big hard' decisions then there's every chance he can do it again. He has a pattern of behaviour of doing morally murky things that tend to lead to other people dying.

Lots of Angel's decisions are big and they are hard and they do weigh on him but the Twilight one is the only one I don't understand. Using your logic I would say that that is his 'one chance' and now he's on borrowed time. I don't expect a happy ending for him, but I don't want him dead either. I want him to do that thing where he saves the day and gets to be miserable for a bit and then eventually go out in a blaze of glory.
Cause really, Angel has saved many more than he has damned, by a large, large margin. He's like Buffy that way. 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

Imo he's not really. I mean I can sort of see why Whedon devised the season 8 plotline, because Angel always was the 'bigger picture guy' and more then happy to play fast and loose with his morals If it gave him the result he desired. You only have to watch AtS season 5 to see that.

I mean I couldn't see Angel not killing Ben/Gory unlike Buffy.

 

[gite63]

I mean I can sort of see why Whedon devised the season 8 plotline,

Yeah, I can see that (now), it's just that Joss went too far. Sometimes a writer has an idea, falls in love with it - and the consequences be damned.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I haven't read the comics...so when I see the Twilight comments, my first reaction is...if Angel actually had anything to do with those HORRID books, that would definitely be the most evil thing he could've done.
 

I mean I couldn't see Angel not killing Ben/Glory unlike Buffy.

Wait...you're saying that Ben is Glory and Glory is Ben?!

 

[RomanticSoul]

Lots of Angel's decisions are big and they are hard and they do weigh on him but the Twilight one is the only one I don't understand.

Not surprising that you don't understand. I don't either. Because it's totally opposite of what Joss himself wrote for Angel in S5 AtS. And also the ATF comics really. Joss should have made the person who did that whole Twilight arc watch AtS before he wrote it. Because that person used BtVS Angel, thereby disregarding any character development Angel has had on his own show.

 

[Mr Trick]

Will just comment on the character in the show. Couldn't really choose helping Darla/Dru kill the evil lawyers because there is certainly arguments both ways on that one. And I think I'm in the position of not agreeing with his actions but understanding them.

I went selling him to W&H. Storyline wise it opened up some really exciting things, but I don't really understand why Angel would do it given his past opposing the firm, and it did step outside of his moral code which is a big part of his character.

Apart from him looking creepy in Buffy S1 & S2 I don't blame him for standing by and watching because its not his place to get involved with he Slayer duties.

 

[SpikeRules]

I voted Twilight. It didn't just affect a single person or a few people, his decision almost destroyed the entire universe.

Also, I'm surprised that two of the choices not included were killing Giles and Jenny.

 

[bespangeled]

You missed allowing a demon to feast on a hotel full of people and then taking advantage of the reduced property price and stolen money to buy a nice live in office.

I think that's more in the running than the Dru and Darla feast since Angel knew it was a demon responsible for the paranoia and the hanging. W&H lawyers brought this upon themselves by their own choices - to screw with Angel and try to turn him dark. He got dark. But the people in the hotel were simply handed over to the demon - and that actually is worse than more than a few things on the list.

Angel did what he always did, taking upon himself the authority to make decisions affecting others' lives without either consulting or even warning them what was about to happen. He did it when he left Sunnydale, when he erased his day of mortality, when he altered everyone's memories about Connor, when he provoked Wolfram & Hart into sending the whole city and surrounding area to hell, and once more, when he willingly made a bargain with an evil sentient universe to help destroy the world in order to eat Buffy's fresh baked cookies.

As for the risk that he took in restoring Giles to life, once more I have to ask, how does restoring one man out of thousands in any way excuse his actions as Twilight's willing, cooperative, and for the most part fully conscious minion? In fact, since it's generally accepted that Giles' death was one of the few times when Twilight was in total control of Angel, that was one of the few deaths that he had no direct responsibility for at all.

Yes, and I say this as a major Angel fan. There is a basic structure of Angel(us). He is the big picture guy - torturing Dru and turning her, the artistry and forethought. He never loses that. Anegel makes the best decision he can, but he goes way over the line when he makes them for other people without consulting them. Either way, he wants it all to be as he thinks things should be - 'he like to think of himself as the boss' - and he can't quite wrap his lobes around the reality that everyone else should have choices that he has to respect even if he hates them.

It's not about Spike being at fault, its about the aftermath of the event and the consequences. Spike has been and can still be controlled by the ultimate evil. But no-one cares, not even him.

Is this a comic thing?

I disagree. You're listing events that- for the most part- were Angel's decisions to make about himself. Angel decides where he goes in life or what happens to his person, nobody else. He also asked others opinions about the W&H plan- he even gave them an out to his 'definitly going to die' plan.

He asked their opinions, then before they even started working he raped their minds. We are our memories - we base our choices on our experiences. To take away pivotal memories takes away critical knowledge that makes buyers remorse a lot less likely. Angel wanted his team to stay - and he wanted to remake reality for Connor. He could have gone the long way and incapacitated Connor, then managed to get Connor to the point that he got Faith to. He took a a short cut, and it was immoral on so many levels. Hell, just knowing what Angel planned to do would probably be reason enough to change their minds.

Again, Angel made a choice without knowing all the consequences or costs.

Well, yeah - who ever does know all the consequences and costs?

Slayer doctrine says that vampires who kill get staked, human law says that humans who kill go to jail so get-outs.

Then Faith should have staked Angel. Faith is a complex character, and I love the way she and Angel are together. Bit I can't whitewash either of them. If her chosen way of gaining redemption is jail, then having her choose never to go back is kind of important.

I haven't read the comics...so when I see the Twilight comments, my first reaction is...if Angel actually had anything to do with those HORRID books, that would definitely be the most evil thing he could've done.

Yeah - on both!

I went selling him to W&H. Storyline wise it opened up some really exciting things, but I don't really understand why Angel would do it given his past opposing the firm, and it did step outside of his moral code which is a big part of his character.

Angel is very moral, but only when it suits his big picture. He tends to see his brooding and guilt as a way of redeeming himself, and therefore he can take time off if he needs to. This is why this entire list exists, really.

 

[Mr Trick]

But I don't really see how Angel had the power to stop the demon from feasting on the humans at the Hotel even if he wanted to? Its a demon! Angel as your run of the mill Vampire didn't have the tools to stop it. Besides I don't blame him on that one after the way he was treated.

 

[bespangeled]

But I don't really see how Angel had the power to stop the demon from feasting on the humans at the Hotel even if he wanted to? Its a demon! Angel as your run of the mill Vampire didn't have the tools to stop it. Besides I don't blame him on that one after the way he was treated.

He knew he was treated that way because of the demon. He knew before he was hung exactly what kind of demon it was and why people were acting the way they were acting. Why would he hold it against the human victims of the demon? Why tell the demon to kill them all?

As for saving people - he might not be able to kill the demon, but he could start a decent size fire and get the hotel evacuated. I love Angel, but the soul did not come with a guide. If you were to ask him what were some of the worst things he had done since souled, I think this would make the list. He not only walked out on these people, he told the demon to take them all.

 

[Mr Trick]

He knew he was treated that way because of the demon. He knew before he was hung exactly what kind of demon it was and why people were acting the way they were acting. Why would he hold it against the human victims of the demon? Why tell the demon to kill them all?

As for saving people - he might not be able to kill the demon, but he could start a decent size fire and get the hotel evacuated. I love Angel, but the soul did not come with a guide. If you were to ask him what were some of the worst things he had done since souled, I think this would make the list. He not only walked out on these people, he told the demon to take them all.

Truth is I didn't think of that, but then I think the show was purposely showing the savage nature of some people. Its easy to say that it was just some demon making them behave like that, but to me that's a cop out. They acted on their own free will. My take is that the demon was just feeding on what was already in the air created by the humans. Its like a cheap, crappy celeb magazine/newspaper only has an audience if actual people buy into its mindset and are interested in it. A random example I know.

One of the things I like about the show and Buffy too, is that these things are not so black and white, and sometimes it does make a case for humans being their worse enemies, and that why should we let them off just because they are humans and not demons.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Also, I'm surprised that two of the choices not included were killing Giles and Jenny.

Because the question is about Angel. Not Angelus or Twilight posessed Angel.

Truth is I didn't think of that, but then I think the show was purposely showing the savage nature of some people. Its easy to say that it was just some demon making them behave like that, but to me that's a cop out. They acted on their own free will. My take is that the demon was just feeding on what was already in the air created by the humans. Its like a cheap, crappy celeb magazine/newspaper only has an audience if actual people buy into its mindset and are interested in it. A random example I know.

That's similiar to how I took it. The demon was like the little devil on your shoulder whispering in your ear and praying on your insecurities to get you to do bad things. You don't have to listen to it and give in. It's your choice.

 

[bespangeled]

Truth is I didn't think of that, but then I think the show was purposely showing the savage nature of some people. Its easy to say that it was just some demon making them behave like that, but to me that's a cop out. They acted on their own free will. My take is that the demon was just feeding on what was already in the air created by the humans. Its like a cheap, crappy celeb magazine/newspaper only has an audience if actual people buy into its mindset and are interested in it. A random example I know.

No - it's part of the script - the Thessulac intensifies the normal human feelings. Yes, they had all the normal range of feelings and insecurities but this was a feedback loop designed to make the paranoia turn into hatred and violence.

Thesulac: "Well, I don't know about you (laughs) but I'm stuffed! God I love people! - Don’t' you? (Laughs) they feed me their worst and I kind of serve it right back to them, and the fear and prejudice turns to certainty and hate, and I take another bite and mmm-mmm-mmm! (Laughs) What a beautiful, beautiful dance! (Moves down from the landing towards Angel) Oh, you got your feelings hurt, didn't you? See now what happens when you stick your neck out for them? They throw a rope around it! (Angel starts to walk towards the door) And you thought you'd made a friend. News flash! You *had*! (Angel stops but doesn't turn around) That's what made her the *yummiest* morsel of all. (Laughs) You reached her, buddy! Restored her faith in people. Without you she would have been just another appetizer. But you plumped her up good! Now, she's a meal that's gonna last me a lifetime! (Laughs then drifts closer towards Angel's back) Hey, you know what? There is an entire hotel here just full of tortured souls that could really use your help. - What do you say?"
We hear some indistinct whispering, then nothing but the sound of the demons tentacles whipping back and forth as it waits for Angel's answer.
Angel without turning around: "Take them all."

They humans were as much under the influence of the demon, as Angel was under the influence of his. At least he knew what was going on - they didn't. But Angel was as vulnerable to the Thessulac as they were. He looked for a way to kill the demon, but once Judy turned against him - even knowing what was going on and why she did - he acted on his own worst impulses, instead of doing what was right.

Wesley: "The hotel officially closed its doors on December 16th 1979. On that morning the concierge, Roland Meeks, made his morning wake-up calls with a twelve gauge shotgun, room to room. It's been empty ever since."

The hotel closed in 1979 - and Angel was there in 1952. That's 27 years worth of murder he could have prevented with gasoline and a match.

 

[thetopher]

Is this a comic thing?

Nope, Season 7.

He asked their opinions, then before they even started working he raped their minds.

There isn't any such thing as mind-rape.

Everyone had made their choice before Angel took their memories of Connor away. And like I've said before there's no evidence that Angel did that or asked for that. More likely that W&H made it a condition of Connor's release.

Well, yeah - who ever does know all the consequences and costs?

Uh, some people I'm guessing. There are such things as 'informed choices', people who know or are told the risks/consequences of something. How else do people make complex moral choices?