What is the most 'evil' thing that Angel does?

[ChaseRules]

And we see Angel acting just like Angelus . You can't tell me there any difference there 🙄

 

[The Bronze]

But of course Buffy didn't beat him, she slept with him and almost brought about the end of the world.
After every evil thing he'd done she still did what she did to Spike in 'Smashed'- jumped on 'her vampire' because she was feeling lonely or disconnected or something.

The or something being the glow, which she didn't request and had no control over, affecting her thought process.

Clearly she didn't care much about the evils and murder Angel'd commited and was complicit in not only in what happened afterwards but Giles death.

No she wasn't complicit at all. Her decisions were affected by forces outside of her control. Once she got back control of her senses she left Angel's new universe and went to help the people he'd left for dead.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

The or something being the glow, which she didn't request and had no control over, affecting her thought process.

Affecting Buffy sure, but not controlling her because she chooses to reject happy Twilight dimension a little later on. I don't get why it's completely evil when Angel is also influenced and not at all evil when Buffy is?
Maybe we can have a 'the most evil thing Bufyf ever did?' poll, lots of things to put in that.

No she wasn't complicit at all. Her decisions were affected by forces outside of her control.

Buffy space-frakked with Angel and that caused dimensions to open and demons to pour forth. Buffy is partly responsible for this because she made the choice to boink Angel in the first place. She knew what she was doing and only regretting it afterwards.
Actually no, there's no regret, she's all smiling and happy even after the glows worn off and Spike shows up. She tells Angel that she loves her blah, blah, best day ever, etc.
I'm sure all those slayers that dies in Tibet were really thrilled that Buffy ended up comshukked with the enemy general...

And as Twilight became stronger as a result of their 'union' and then possessed Angel absolutely then yeah, Buffy is also complicit in what happens to Giles.
Not that she ever accepts any responsibility for that, she spends all of S9 in denial saying 'she had no other choice' and whining about her life.

 

[gite63]

Affecting Buffy sure, but not controlling her because she chooses to reject happy Twilight dimension a little later on. I don't get why it's completely evil when Angel is also influenced and not at all evil when Buffy is?

Angel was approached by a guy who told him he could be with Buffy; he then decided to "marry" her, made arrangements for the "wedding party" and bought a "beautiful mansion" to live with his "bride"; he just forgot to propose her, so she had to be drugged to go along.

That was character assassination, but I have already went through The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, so, yeah, what Angel did was despicable.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Angel was approached by a guy who told him he could be with Buffy; he then decided to "marry" her, made arrangements for the "wedding party" and bought a "beautiful mansion" to live with his "bride"; he just forgot to propose her, so she had to be drugged to go along.

Yeah Bufy was influenced, I understand that, but she wasn't controlled because she made a decision and then later she changed her mind and talked Angel round. It makes them both responsible for the world almost ending and Giles dying.
If Angel was duped by Whistler, and Buffy was duped by Angel -then they're both at fault.

I don't see why Angel gets all the blame (and takes all the blame) but Buffy hides behind 'I had to save the world, I didn't have a choice.'

That was character assassination

Exactly. It was a crappy end to a crappy season and I stopped following the comics. Utter betrayal of both title characters.
Nothing's going to persuade me that that is good storytelling. I've read better fan-fic and I'll stick to following the shows. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

But of course Buffy didn't beat (Angel), she slept with him and almost brought about the end of the world.
After every evil thing he'd done she still did what she did to Spike in 'Smashed'- jumped on 'her vampire' because she was feeling lonely or disconnected or something.

Clearly she didn't care much about the evils and murder Angel'd committed and was complicit in not only in what happened afterwards but Giles death.

I wasn't referring to Buffy beating Angel, specifically. We all know that that would be little or no contest. What I meant was, Angel should have known that Buffy was going to beat Twilight, just like she beat the Master, Glory, and the First Evil. Whatever it takes, strategy, enchanted weapons, or magic spells and amulets, Buffy always finds a way to get the job done.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

What I meant was, Angel should have known that Buffy was going to beat Twilight, just like she beat the Master, Glory, and the First Evil. Whatever it takes, strategy, enchanted weapons, or magic spells and amulets, Buffy always finds a way to get the job done.

I understand that and, not that I'm defending him, but wasn't Angel told that Buffy cause this in the first place by 'winning' last time?
Didn't it say (or show I can't remember) that the world was doomed/over because Buffy had done what she did when she activated the slayers?

I mean, its brain-hurtingly stupid logic but it makes a kind of sense- Buffy won last time at great 'cost' by utterly changing the world, what's going to happen this time if Angel doesn't help (because he must help y'know, she's just a girl. 🙄), so of course he's going to help her.
Anyway- Angel evil, Buffy also evil, or at the very least kinda insane for doing what she did.

 

[ChaseRules]

Angel was approached by a guy who told him he could be with Buffy; he then decided to "marry" her, made arrangements for the "wedding party" and bought a "beautiful mansion" to live with his "bride"; he just forgot to propose her, so she had to be drugged to go along.

That was character assassination, but I have already went through The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, so, yeah, what Angel did was despicable.

That all Angel wanted . He didn't care about anything else. Just like when he joined WRH & Buffy stayed because of that . He refused to believe that all the people
he killed men't anything . And for the people who said it Buffy was at fault she didn't spend months trying to destroy him so Angel/ Angelious get all the blame.

Yeah Buffy was influenced, I understand that, but she wasn't controlled because she made a decision and then later she changed her mind and talked Angel round. It makes them both responsible for the world almost ending and Giles dying.
If Angel was duped by Whistler, and Buffy was duped by Angel -then they're both at fault.

Exactly. It was a crappy end to a crappy season and I stopped following the comics. Utter betrayal of both title characters.
Nothing's going to persuade me that that is good storytelling. I've read better fan-fic and I'll stick to following the shows. 🙂

I liked the first half but then I lost interest in it . And by that i mean it turned me away . I started reading Fan Fiction then which
is better sometimes & doesn't try & tell that what happened.

 

[gite63]

Exactly. It was a crappy end to a crappy season and I stopped following the comics. Utter betrayal of both title characters.
Nothing's going to persuade me that that is good storytelling. I've read better fan-fic and I'll stick to following the shows. 🙂

Well, I love the comics... and the more I read S8, the more I like it. The problem is (or was) with its ending, with Angel being Twilight. But once you accept it, it's easier to understand the whole thing... 😉

 

[ChaseRules]

But Angel was being evil so if you like Angel it should be hard to swallow.

 

[gite63]

But Angel was being evil so if you like Angel it should be hard to swallow.

Well, it was, but I reached the acceptance phase... anyway, it doesn't matter anymore, because his actions were whitewashed.

 

[white avenger]

I never understood the thinking behind making Angel the personification of Twilight. It was just too much like a flash back to Season 2.

 

[ChaseRules]

Well, it was, but I reached the acceptance phase... anyway, it doesn't matter anymore, because his actions were whitewashed.

That why I stoped reading the Comics.

 

[nightshade]

I don't think Angel can be completely to blame for releasing the demons, as Wesley and Cordelia helped him with that one.

 

[ChaseRules]

Agreed . But also he should be blamed for what he did & not excused for his part in the whole thing .

 

[thetopher]

The thing is that Angel doesn't excuse himself, not really. The only thing that could point to that is a dumb/joke clarification between him and Willow in S9.
When people say that Twilight was 'whitewashed' it wasn't, at least not anymore than say, Buffy's part in the whole 'world-ending shag', or any of the evil stuff that some characters did on the show.
Examples include: Dark Willow trying to destroy the world, Andrew's actions in S6 as part of the Trio, and Spike killing and turning a dozen people whilst controlled by The First.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

I liked the first half but then I lost interest in it . And by that i mean it turned me away .

Me too. I'm not going to get into an off-topic comics rant but I just don't think the medium translated well at all, looking at the totality of S8. It was too stupid and overblown well before 'Twilight the masked villain' showed up.
Faith, Dawn, Giles, lots of characters that I liked were just badly wriiten or made to do/say really dumb or evil stuff. And then they do that to Angel and Buffy- season 2 all over again only a million times worse.
Willow, Xander and Kennedy are the only ones who came of of the whole mess with any dignity.

 

[ChaseRules]

I agree with that 100 % . I couldn't take what they were doing so didn't read it any more . Kennedy did pretty good in there but when I first
started reading them I still hated her so that turned me off even more.

 

[white avenger]

When people say that Twilight was 'whitewashed' it wasn't, at least not anymore than say, Buffy's part in the whole 'world-ending shag', or any of the evil stuff that some characters did on the show.

It's been a long time since I read Season 8, but isn't the point that Angel was willingly cooperating with Twilight, whereas no one else actually knew anything about it? As for the Buffy/Angel dance, can we really say that Buffy was thinking clearly at that particular time? She knows full well that giving Angel a happy ALWAYS ends badly, and she goes at him like a sailor after a long cruise. She had to be under the influence of something a whole lot more powerful than just Slayer hormones.

Angel made a deal with the devil, and a lot of people died because of it. Trying to excuse that fact by saying that he killed thousands to save billions, whatever the actual final count might have been, is, to me at least, just plain whitewash. He doesn't get the same consideration that Spike did in Season 7, because none of what Spike did under the First Evil's influence was done with either his permission, knowledge, or cooperation. Angel knew exactly what he was doing, plus, he knew that Buffy, if she had had any say in the matter, would have almost certainly told Twilight to go french kiss a king cobra. That puts the whole blame on Angel, in my book.

 

[GoSpuffy]

I'm going with Twilight. He is evil in two fronts here, he kills people and he manipulates friends. The global mind wash is similar and would be a close second but I can give him at least a hair of credit that he still was doing it with good intentions for Connor. Twilight was evil actions with evil intentions. I think he did it to get Buffy back and the manipulation had no redeeming qualities.