What it means to be a witch

[KingFelix]

I don't think that you can safely say that there is anyone that would never do any harm to anyone or anything, just because they associate themself with a particular group. Of course there are some out there in magic circles that believe in things like the threefold law, or some kind of karmic retribution. Any there are others who don't.

As for that statement about magic, you're half right. Magic is not witchcraft, this is true. Magic is far more than that. Witchcraft, however, is a term that implies that use of a particular form of magic. .

 

[Buffy Summers]

Also I did not say that magic is witchcraft. I said I thought you were confusing "wicca" witchcraft with "magickal" witchcraft.

 

[tjkphilosopher]

I will correct what said before slightly there is little difference between magic and witchcraft. Witchcraft is more creative and earthly. Magicians only have occult knowledge.

 

[Faith]

I will correct what said before slightly there is little difference between magic and witchcraft. Witchcraft is more creative and earthly. Magicians only have occult knowledge.

I'm struggling to find the sense in that statement....is it just me? Or does everyone else understand this?

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm struggling to find the sense in that statement....is it just me? Or does everyone else understand this?

No. I think it's safe to say it's not just you this time. 🙂

It's what happens when people use the same words, and mean different things. Maybe what's required here is a re-focusing of the terminology.

In the broadest sense when one talks about magic they're talking about something which creates a result contrary to what one would expect from physical laws.

A magician pulls a rabbit from a head. That's magic, but what it actually is is a manipulation of known physical behaviours to create an illusory effect. I'll call that manipulative magic.

If the magician could simpy desire a rabbit to be in the hat, then reach inside, and grab one that would also be magic. I'll call that actual magic.

If the magician desired a demon rabbit to appear from the hat, then performed occult rituals, or drew upon presumed occult energies, I guess we could call that occult magic.

I'm going to say what we usually mean by witchcraft in its broadest sense is occult magic performed by a witch - a witch being in it's broadest sense a female capable of performing magic.

In the last little period of history however something has appeared we call a Wicca. They tell us they are witches. The quote unquote witchcraft they perform appears to more a subjective assumption of the manipulation of proposed existing energies. I'd like to call that subjective witchcraft, but in the interest of getting along I'll call it Wicca witchcraft.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Theres an authur named Aleister Crowley, who is a famous writer on Occult books and he epopularized the work Magick to defferenciate it drom Magic, which he used to define stage magic (that pulling a rabit out of a hat magic)

I think what TK is trying to say (I THINK, cuz it doesn't make sense to me either) is more about the religion and respect moon cycles and stuff while a person who uses magic could be anyone like who just finds a spell from a book? is that right? (If it is it's what we've been saying all along!)

 

[Buffy Summers]

BEG I think you have summed it up exactly, but I think that TK is using "wiccans" to mean people who use magick as in pointing at something and having it levitate or some such INSTEAD of meaning someone who is about the religion and moon cycles etc that you described. Which is where I think his error lies. Because you can't say the magick shown in Hex is in any way connected to Wicca.

🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

I worry the reason tjk is having difficulty grasping these distinctions may be because these silly girls he's met online have somehow convinced him they have actual power - that they really can manipulate physical laws to do their bidding with their wicca craft, or alter physical reality.

If that's the case, it's really easy to check that out tjk. Put a pencil on your desk next time you're talking to them online. Tell them to make it float.

 

[Schillaci]

Theres an authur named Aleister Crowley, who is a famous writer on Occult books and he epopularized the work Magick to defferenciate it drom Magic, which he used to define stage magic (that pulling a rabit out of a hat magic)

He was also a drug addict. He spent his life rebelling against his religious upbringing. Hmm.. Ok I wasn't making any point, I just wanted to bring together the other two drving forces in Crowleys life. Three slices in the circle of Crowleys life. Religion, drugs, "magic".. There's a delusion analogy somewhere in that little mix.

I worry the reason tjk is having difficulty grasping these distinctions may be because these silly girls he's met online have somehow convinced him they have actual power - that they really can manipulate physical laws to do their bidding with their wicca craft, or alter physical reality.

If that's the case, it's really easy to check that out tjk. Put a pencil on your desk next time you're talking to them online. Tell them to make it float.

TJK will return with the statement that it floated.:silly:

 

[Ladybug]

I'm sorry, tjk, but I find this whole "point" you're trying to make very... pointless. Unless you just wanted to make an argument like this one. Nasty Ladybug hath been unleashed. I have strong opinions. I suggest you don't read them if you have a short temper. 😉

Witches - They're all fakes. Don't listen to them. If some overly-convinced headcase says they are a witch, ask them for accurate, PHYSICAL proof, which, you will most likely [positively] not get.

If that's the case, it's really easy to check that out tjk. Put a pencil on your desk next time you're talking to them online. Tell them to make it float.

Good idea. I like it.

 

[KingFelix]

This is turning into exactly what I'd hoped it wouldn't...

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Witches - They're all fakes. Don't listen to them. If some overly-convinced headcase says they are a witch, ask them for accurate, PHYSICAL proof, which, you will most likely [positively] not get.



Good idea. I like it.

Witches DO exist though. The ability to create a fireball using the power of magick and sending it to destroy specific individuals, that doesn't exist.
Unless your full Witch Title is Sorcerer Brigadier General Insert Name Here and you can magically command a great 'fireball' to erupt from a 'magical' metal 'wand'.

The problem that people have with this topic is the automatic assumption that a Witch/Wizard will be Harry Potter, Willow or a Charmed one with that fantastical special effected magic.

This is turning into exactly what I'd hoped it wouldn't...

Well what did you hope it would be.
I've read your posts and they are intuned and accurate with what this area is, however the original poster, TJK, is not going down the road of actual fact, he seems to be under some belief that the onscreen picture of a Witch is the correct one and if that is the argument he is wishing to further, then there is no other course for this discussion other than ridicule.

 

[nerd4hire]

I agree.

Personally I'm thinking maybe it's time some of this stuff does get said.

Often when you see 'Wicca' talk on a board like this one, which considers a fictionalized, occult influenced, TV series, one gets the feeling he or she is simply supposed to assume some sort of real mystical power in the real world witch when people turn up expressing expertise in such stuff. That idea is never really challenged, and it creates a lot of erroneous assumptions when you apply the references to the fiction.

So maybe it's a good idea to worry this is where the conversation might go. In fact, maybe one should expect it, when it's suggested witches might actually have the power to do stuff like make things float, or hex, or create magic spells with real world implications.

 

[Frenchy Faith]

On a side note... the day anyone finds how to make something float please lemme know, I'll come a running!!! I've always wanted to fly so maybe they could make me float too, that'd be like flying! :silly:

 

[KingFelix]

I meant that I was hoping it wouldn't turn in to a magic is/isn't real debate, because that won't go anywhere because everyone is going to have their own idea on that kind of thing, as they should.

I agree that TJK seems to have some trouble differentiating between the way they show magic on a television show as compared to what is actually practiced in real life. My hope is that this thread will inspire him to learn more and have a better understanding about what true magic is and the difference between that and the special effects they show on television.

 

[nerd4hire]

Well...the title of the thread is "What it Means to be a Witch". The thread is in the Inside Out forum which means it concerns stuff that concerns the Buffy/Angel series. Personally I'm open to debate on all aspects of that.

A comparison of Wicca magic, Buffy magic, and Hex magic seems like fair comment to me. If someone suggests something that sounds like Wiccas have real world power, so Buffy and Hex magic are based on a real world model of that power in a way that gives them common ground, then that needs to be discussed, I think.

 

[tjkphilosopher]

The point of the thread is to see who believes in witchcraft, and understands the symbolism of the demons and vampires. Don't have to agree with anyone's point of view but don't have to resort to calling anyone's opinion as stupid. If not clear about what has been said...ask.

I don't know for certain whether witchcraft is real. I am certainly not going to mock and ridicule anyone claiming to be a witch. Don't have to worry about a wiccan witch but a witch that is a pagan or has another belief may take offence to the criticism.

When I referred to a magician I am not talking about someone like copperfield. They are slight of hand experts and illusionists. Magician is someone who practices occult spells and hexes. Someone who may not have a morale compass.

Witchcraft is old european mysticism. There is mysticism that is even more mysterious that is ancient chinese mystic. Not to forget voodoo which is downright scary.

For those of you that don't believe in witches. Here is something to consider. Robia Lamorte - Jenny - hasn't done much after her appearances on buffy. I learned she recently had some tragedy in her life after buffy. She became a born again christian and preaches about the dangers of witchcraft. Perhaps blaming being involved on buffy.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Being pagan doesn't make you magickal either.

 

[KingFelix]

Well...the title of the thread is "What it Means to be a Witch". The thread is in the Inside Out forum which means it concerns stuff that concerns the Buffy/Angel series. Personally I'm open to debate on all aspects of that.

A comparison of Wicca magic, Buffy magic, and Hex magic seems like fair comment to me. If someone suggests something that sounds like Wiccas have real world power, so Buffy and Hex magic are based on a real world model of that power in a way that gives them common ground, then that needs to be discussed, I think.

I agree with that. I think it is interesting to discuss the theatrical magic practiced on television and the similarities and differences from what is practiced in real life. I'm just saying that has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that what is practiced in real life actually works, because everyone is going to have their own opinion/idea/belief on that, and it's usually pretty pointless to get into a debate about spiritual or religious beliefs.

 

[The Arcane]

Okay, as somebody who has studied this subject for many years of his young life (it was my interest in the paranormal and occult that made me a Buffy fan in the first place) I have to admit to having little or no clue as to what TJK is trying to say here.

I'll be the first to admit that trying to find simple terms and definitions for anything wiccan/pagan/witchy these days is really confusing. The media and movie world has made it almost impossible for those new to the wiccan belief system to really have a good idea what it is they are getting into from the start. Many kids decide that they want to follow an "earth" religion based on what they have seen on shows like Buffy and (god forbid) Charmed and then realise that the reality is nowhere near as interesting. Y'know, the lack of being able to float pencils and stuff.

The fact is that so much of the true beliefs and ideas of the wicca and pagan crowd isn't going to be found on the internet or necessarily even in books (although you'll have a much better chance of finding the info you need on good old paper). The terminology that you will find on here is mostly corrupted by modern ideas and the fantasy elements added by the likes of Joss and others who have used wiccan belief as part of their stories. Nothing wrong with that but it does lead to incredible confusion, as proven in this thread. Nerd4Hire and myself had a long debate (that pretty much ended in us having to agree to disagree) over two simple words used in a spell on an episode of Buffy. N4H put forward (quite correctly, from his viewpoint) how the two words could refer to the same object whilst I, working with a little information I had learned years before, put forward that the two words (conduit and catalyst, if I remember correctly) could not be referring to the same object due to the natures of the two things being very different. My only problem was that I had no source evidence to back up my viewpoint. Simply put, I couldn't find any on here. In fact, short of going back to my old college and hopefully tracking down the books I got the information from I didn't know where to begin. It was old wiccan lore. Nowhere near as interesting as the stuff you see in the movies and so not likely to be found on the internet.

Confusion is to be expected because I would imagine even a large number of those who call themselves wiccan today have little or no idea about what they truly believe in. In the above example of the debate between N4H and myself I absolutely have to concede that (even though I wasn't going to admit it at the time, hehe) N4H had a lot more evidence on his side to back his argument up. All I had was a little information that I had read years before. Any court in the land would likely have fallen on the side of N4H because using the facts at hand, as created by the modern media, he was correct. No matter how much I knew that what I was saying was correct, the "facts" as presented to us today only served N4H's position.

I guess what I'm saying (and I do have a point, honest) is that you have to appreciate the difference between wicca and Hollywood wicca, because the two things are not the same at all. TJK, I'm sorry but your points and arguments are very confused and they don't make an awful lot of sense. In some of the things you have said you even seem to be confusing yourself.

Wiccan and pagan belief has absolutely nothing to do with magick as suggested by television and movies. In fact, it never did. Most of the people who ended up being classed as "witches" and "warlocks" back in the day most likely had done nothing more than sit in a stone circle and chant for the earth to grant a good harvest. That was reason enough for a good stoning or burning at the stake. Gave everyone something to do on a Sunday afternoon, y'know? 😉