What would you have done?

[zobothehobo]

I just finished Sleep Tight in my Angel re-watch and I just can't bring myself to go on right now because I'm so depressed and upset with Wesley. I think Wesley made the wrong choice, he should have told everyone what was going on with the prophecy so they could take the necessary precautions to make sure it didn't come true together rather than going to see Holtz and trying to run off like that. But hindsight is 20/20... I was thinking about what I would have done if I was Wesley to try and cut him some slack so I wouldn't be so mad at him. I can understand his fear and uncertainty of telling anyone else. I honestly don't know if I would have worked through that.

So what about you? What do you think you would have done if you were in Wesley's shoes?

 

[Anya2012]

I also think Wesley overreacted and should have told everybody first. It was common sense really.

 

[GrrArghx]

Assuming for a moment this prophecy was 100% going to come true no matter what, like prophecy's are supposed to, what would telling anyone have done? It would've happened anyway. I think that was Wesley's mindset, so I understand where he was coming from.

However, knowing me, I would tell them. I'm just saying, I get why Wes did what he did.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

When one is that worried, common sense doesn't really enter into the picture. I was never really upset at Wesley, he went in blind, and he loved and cared for Angel and Connor so much that he was just trying to protect them both. Blame Holtz, blame the master demon guy (Whose name I know but can never spell) but don't blame Wesley. It wasn't his fault. His intent was pure.

Personally, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to believe I would tell Angel and co., what was going on, but I can't know that for sure. Like I said, when you are in a situation like that, common sense doesn't always enter the picture at first.

 

[brinkster130]

I hate what Wesley did. I really think he acted to soon and that he should have gone to the others and shared the prophesy with them. I can see not telling Angel about it, but I think Wesley should have at least told Fred, Gunn, Lorne and Cordy. I don't see why Wesley thought he was alone in this; they all cared for Connor and wanted to keep him safe. Why didn't he trust anyone else? What have they done to make him think they are untrustworthy but Justine is?

If Wesley had Fred and Gunn there to help him take Connor away Holtz may have never been able to take Connor.

It always makes me so sad to see Connor taken from Angel that I have a very hard time feeling any sympathy for Wesley.

 

[white avenger]

I agree that Wes should have told the others about the prophecy rather than making the decision and taking the action all on his own, and if I had been him, I would have included the others in my plan, as well as having at least one of them go with mr to the meeting as back up. On the other hand, I think that the episode served quite well to illustrate that Angel can't take what he never hesitates to dish out, namely making decisions concerning others without consulting them beforehand. I kept hoping that Cordy or one of the others would point that out to him, but it just wasn't to be.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I HATE Wesley in these episodes and I don't ever fully forgive him. He made the wrong decision because its part of who he is. He makes those decisions on his own. He doesn't trust his friends. He always relies on himself. And time and again this proves to be the wrong move, and yet Wesley does what he thinks needs to be done. And usually messes everything up.

If he had trusted just one other person I wouldn't have been as upset with him. But no he chooses to speak to Holtz instead. He's then surprised when Justine stabs in the back (or to be more literal neck) He could have told Gunn, or Fred, or Lorne. He could have even called Cordelia. He wouldn't tell Gunn or Fred because of his own jealousy. I'm sorry but he let Fred ruin his friendship with Gunn and put that over the safety of the child.

He's responsible for Angel losing his son. He's responsible for Connor losing his childhood. And he has the nerve to be all offended that no one wants to forgive him. Does he ever apologize for what he did? Apologize for what happened? No. He just sees that everyone turned on him. Well in my opinion Wesley deserved it.

And what sucks even more is that it was all for nothing.

If I were Wesley I absolutely would have told my Angel and Co. I would never have tried to do it on my own.

 

[Tome]

I HATE Wesley in these episodes and I don't ever fully forgive him. He made the wrong decision because its part of who he is. He makes those decisions on his own. He doesn't trust his friends. He always relies on himself. And time and again this proves to be the wrong move, and yet Wesley does what he thinks needs to be done. And usually messes everything up.

If he had trusted just one other person I wouldn't have been as upset with him. But no he chooses to speak to Holtz instead. He's then surprised when Justine stabs in the back (or to be more literal neck) He could have told Gunn, or Fred, or Lorne. He could have even called Cordelia. He wouldn't tell Gunn or Fred because of his own jealousy. I'm sorry but he let Fred ruin his friendship with Gunn and put that over the safety of the child.

He's responsible for Angel losing his son. He's responsible for Connor losing his childhood. And he has the nerve to be all offended that no one wants to forgive him. Does he ever apologize for what he did? Apologize for what happened? No. He just sees that everyone turned on him. Well in my opinion Wesley deserved it.

And what sucks even more is that it was all for nothing.

If I were Wesley I absolutely would have told my Angel and Co. I would never have tried to do it on my own.

Katie... 🙄

I still don't think Wesley deserved your hate. He was in a hard position. Nothing at that point could make him think that a prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled. Cordy and Groo were away, he had lost his trust in Gunn and Fred, and he wasn't going to tell Angel that he was gonna kill his own son... The only person I could have seen him tell was Lorne, and Wes probably thought he would have felt forced to tell Angel. All he wanted to do was take Connor away to a safer place, but he got betrayed by Justine & Holtz. If I were you I'd hate THEM instead.

As for not apologizing... I'm sure he would have if he could have FREAKING talked. But then, his best friend tried to smother him with a pillow, the girl he loved told him to never come back... And NOBODY actually cared about him. I think THEY should have apologized. Not that long ago, they were family. He saved Gunn's ass and almost died doing it. I still think to this day that the only person that had a reason to do that to him was Angel, because he had lost his son and couldn't think sanely.

Even Angel told him in s5 that he finally understood he always had to take the hardest decisions, and that what made it even harder was that he usually had to take them alone.

I never 'hated' Wes for any of it. I despised Holtz and Justine for striking him like that.

 

[The Unspoken]

He kidnapped Connor to prevent the worst case scenario imaginable from happening, namely Angel turning into Angelus and snacking on his poor innocent little baby son. If he had told the others and they would have agreed with his plan, it would increase the risk of Angel retrieving Connor significantly. What if Angel - or probably Angelus at that point - tortured them into telling him where Wesley was hiding out?

If Holtz and co. hadn't betrayed him, I imagine he would eventually figure out the prophecy was false and he would return with Connor.

 

[Kana]

Indeed and even helping Justine was an act of compassion. So in short, Wes did all the wrong things, for the right reasons. Even Justine said, he sacrificed everything he believed in to protect Connor. I certainly understand Angel's anger but I can also understand Wesley's bitterness when he wasn't allowed to explain his side of what happened.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Katie... 🙄

I still don't think Wesley deserved your hate. He was in a hard position. Nothing at that point could make him think that a prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled. Cordy and Groo were away, he had lost his trust in Gunn and Fred, and he wasn't going to tell Angel that he was gonna kill his own son... The only person I could have seen him tell was Lorne, and Wes probably thought he would have felt forced to tell Angel. All he wanted to do was take Connor away to a safer place, but he got betrayed by Justine & Holtz. If I were you I'd hate THEM instead.

As for not apologizing... I'm sure he would have if he could have FREAKING talked. But then, his best friend tried to smother him with a pillow, the girl he loved told him to never come back... And NOBODY actually cared about him. I think THEY should have apologized. Not that long ago, they were family. He saved Gunn's ass and almost died doing it. I still think to this day that the only person that had a reason to do that to him was Angel, because he had lost his son and couldn't think sanely.

Even Angel told him in s5 that he finally understood he always had to take the hardest decisions, and that what made it even harder was that he usually had to take them alone.

I never 'hated' Wes for any of it. I despised Holtz and Justine for striking him like that.

Lol well Tom I think he does deserve my hate.

He took Angels son. Because of his actions Angel lost the only chance he will ever have to raise his son. Connor lost his childhood. It doesn't matter if his intentions were good. There were severe consequences that Wesley had to pay for. Losing his friends were one of them. Angel had every right in my opinion to be angry at Wesley. Wesley should have trusted someone but as I said he let his jealousy over Fred cloud his opinion of Gunn. He should have told them but he chose to act alone instead. That coupled with the fact he never apologizes nor sees anything wrong with his actions is why I can't fully forgive him.

They didn't need to apologize to him. They had every right to side with Angel. Angel was the one grieving, Angel was the one who lost his son. Wesley chose not to trust his friends, if you don't trust your friends you can't honestly claim them your friends. So why should they be supportive when he didn't even bother to trust them? He turned to Justine and Holtz. Who he knew were bad guys. He should have never done that. He got what he deserved.

What Angel says to him is true. He does make the decisions no one else will make. It doesn't always mean theyre the right decisions. Its who he is. And thats what i don't like about him.

 

[Brandonxx93]

I for one completely and absolutely agree with xfivebyfive. Welsey deserves to be hated. What he did was low. You cant get any lower then kidnapping someones child even if it was the "right" thing to do. Cause it is/was not the right thing to do.

Can you imagine being a parent and having your bestfriend betray you like that? Would you be like "Oh, well it was just an accident. I forgive you for stealing my son. But hey whatever, even though I will never raise him as my own you still can come and move back in with me." I mean come on. That's ridiculous. Angel and everyone around him have the right to hate Wes.

 

[The Unspoken]

I for one completely and absolutely agree with xfivebyfive. Welsey deserves to be hated. What he did was low. You cant get any lower then kidnapping someones child even if it was the "right" thing to do. Cause it is/was not the right thing to do.

Even if he did it to prevent the father of said child from literally eating it? Keep in mind that the impossible had already happened, like a vampire giving birth to a child. Wesley had no reason to doubt the prophecy. How could he possibly know a time-traveling demon who was literally rewriting history had gotten involved?

Can you imagine being a parent and having your bestfriend betray you like that? Would you be like "Oh, well it was just an accident. I forgive you for stealing my son. But hey whatever, even though I will never raise him as my own you still can come and move back in with me." I mean come on. That's ridiculous. Angel and everyone around him have the right to hate Wes.

Had he not been stabbed, Wesley would probably research the prophecy further, discover it to be false and return Connor to his son. If we judge actions by their unforeseeable consequences, then Liam should've been blamed for stumbling out of that bar drunk, because it led to all the crimes Angelus committed.

 

[brinkster130]

Cordy and Groo were away, he had lost his trust in Gunn and Fred, and he wasn't going to tell Angel that he was gonna kill his own son... The only person I could have seen him tell was Lorne, and Wes probably thought he would have felt forced to tell Angel. All he wanted to do was take Connor away to a safer place, but he got betrayed by Justine & Holtz. If I were you I'd hate THEM instead.

I don't understand why Wesley didn't trust Gunn and Fred? Is it simply because of his jealousy that he decided he couldn't trust them? (Or am I forgetting something?) I think Wesley could and should have called Cordy. Yeah she was on vacation but Wesley knows how much Cordy cares about both Angel and Connor and I don't see how he could possible believe that Cordy wouldn't try and save Connor.

I understand Fred, Gunn, Cordy and Lornes anger at Wesley. They trusted him and thought they were friends but when Wesley took Connor they learned that he didn't trust them. It was a slap in their face that he didn't trust them enough to ask for help. Then add on the pain/sorrow over the loss of a child and I can see why they were upset.

I do think that everyone could have apologized to each other, but I think everyone was too hurt in that situation to try and salvage the friendship.

And for the record, I do hate Holtz and Justine for what they did. I think they are sick to justify stealing someones child.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Even if he did it to prevent the father of said child from literally eating it? Keep in mind that the impossible had already happened, like a vampire giving birth to a child. Wesley had no reason to doubt the prophecy. How could he possibly know a time-traveling demon who was literally rewriting history had gotten involved?

Had he not been stabbed, Wesley would probably research the prophecy further, discover it to be false and return Connor to his son. If we judge actions by their unforeseeable consequences, then Liam should've been blamed for stumbling out of that bar drunk, because it led to all the crimes Angelus committed.

No Wesley could not have known about Sahjan but regardless of the prophecy Wesley still did what he did. The consequences are what they are. Connor is the innocent victim here. He is the one whose childhood is ruined because of Wesley's decision.

Wesley's actions weren't an accident or random like Liam stumbling upon Darla. He chose to take Connor away. He chose to not to trust his friends. Had he trusted one other person, tried not doing it alone, things would have been different. I don't see why he had to go to Holtz and Justine to begin with. That is the betrayal. He chose to go to them and not trust his own friends. Like Brinkster130 said its a slap in the face to find out that your friend doesn't trust you enough to help him.

 

[citiegal17]

No Wesley could not have known about Sahjan but regardless of the prophecy Wesley still did what he did. The consequences are what they are. Connor is the innocent victim here. He is the one whose childhood is ruined because of Wesley's decision.

Wesley's actions weren't an accident or random like Liam stumbling upon Darla. He chose to take Connor away. He chose to not to trust his friends. Had he trusted one other person, tried not doing it alone, things would have been different. I don't see why he had to go to Holtz and Justine to begin with. That is the betrayal. He chose to go to them and not trust his own friends. Like Brinkster130 said its a slap in the face to find out that your friend doesn't trust you enough to help him.

Connor is far from a innocent victim, he may have been in the begining but at the end of season 4 he sure wasn't innocent. Connor had a bad childhood sure but he's the one who made his own deciscions, knowing fully well better. Connor had a bad life but he choose to ruin it even more. Wesley can't be blamed for what Connor did, Connor still had free will so if Connor choose to let himself go on the path of destruction its his fault not Wesley's. Wesley had good intentions that turned out badly, but he's not responsible for Connor's ruining himself, Connor didn't need any help with that. Connor was well aware that he had good reason to trust Angel he choose to refuse to listen anyone, he choose to be Jasmine's bitch, much like Angel was Twilight's bitch in season 8, Connor felt sorry for himself, and Angel just feuled the fire by letting things slide. Angel's role as a parent was to be someone Connor didn't like to establish authority, he failed at that, its part of the reason Connor was out of control. Sure Wesley betrayed him, and Angel had a good reason to feel betrayed but he went too far when he tried to murder Wesley, Wesley never to set out to kill Connor or to send him to a hell demension, thats Justine's and Holtz's doing, and you can't blame Wesley for not knowing he was going to be doublecrossed by them.

 

[brinkster130]

Connor is far from a innocent victim, he may have been in the begining but at the end of season 4 he sure wasn't innocent. Connor had a bad childhood sure but he's the one who made his own deciscions, knowing fully well better. Connor had a bad life but he choose to ruin it even more. Wesley can't be blamed for what Connor did, Connor still had free will so if Connor choose to let himself go on the path of destruction he choose. Wesley had good intentions that turned out badly, but he's not responsible for Connor's ruining himself, Connor didn't need any help with that.

We are talking about Connors childhood not his teenage years when he came back to LA. When he was kidnapped he was the innocent victim. The only innocent person involved.

No one is blaming Wesley for the anger and confusion Connor had to deal with when he returned, we are blaming Wesley for his part in the kidnapping.

 

[Tome]

Lol well Tom I think he does deserve my hate.

He took Angels son. Because of his actions Angel lost the only chance he will ever have to raise his son. Connor lost his childhood. It doesn't matter if his intentions were good. There were severe consequences that Wesley had to pay for. Losing his friends were one of them. Angel had every right in my opinion to be angry at Wesley. Wesley should have trusted someone but as I said he let his jealousy over Fred cloud his opinion of Gunn. He should have told them but he chose to act alone instead. That coupled with the fact he never apologizes nor sees anything wrong with his actions is why I can't fully forgive him.

They didn't need to apologize to him. They had every right to side with Angel. Angel was the one grieving, Angel was the one who lost his son. Wesley chose not to trust his friends, if you don't trust your friends you can't honestly claim them your friends. So why should they be supportive when he didn't even bother to trust them? He turned to Justine and Holtz. Who he knew were bad guys. He should have never done that. He got what he deserved.

What Angel says to him is true. He does make the decisions no one else will make. It doesn't always mean theyre the right decisions. Its who he is. And thats what i don't like about him.

It's not that he didn't trust them. He saw himself as the only one who could take a difficult decision amongst them. Cordy, Lorne, Fred, Gunn, they would all have had to talk to Angel about it. They couldn't have done the RIGHT thing. If he didn't trust something, it was that they would be able to do what he did(take the child away from Angel). He didn't turn to Justine and Holtz either... He just talked to them because what he wanted above all else was for Connor to be safe.

You also have to remember that he knew Angel didn't always take the right decisions. Angel proved in s2 that he didn't have to lose his soul to do regrettables things. At this point, and with the prophecy seemingly happening as predicted, he did what he thought was best. Sadly, he couldn't expect to be backstabbed by Justine.

Brandonxx, you do realize that what he did was to save Connor? And to help Angel? It's easy to blame him afterward because things didn't go well. Wes did the right thing with what he knew at the time. He's human.

Brinkster, it was a slap in Wesley's face that his *family* didn't care enough to actually listen to his reasons for doing what he did. They acted like idiots. They had gone through a lot of shit together, and ONE thing happen, and they all turn against one of theirs without even letting him speak first? WTF! I would have reacted this way weither it was Fred, Gunn, Cordy or anyone else too...

And Katie, huh? Connor's childhood wasn't ruined ONLY because of Wesley's decision. It was ruined because of what Angel did as a soulless vampire to Holtz's family. It was ruined because Holtz couldn't let it go and had to go through all that just for revenge. It was ruined because Sahjan was afraid of the boy and opened a portal to Quor'Toth. It was also ruined because Justine stabbed Wesley. I could go on and on... The point is that you can't put all of it on Wes.

 

[citiegal17]

We are talking about Connors childhood not his teenage years when he came back to LA. When he was kidnapped he was the innocent victim. The only innocent person involved.

No one is blaming Wesley for the anger and confusion Connor had to deal with when he returned, we are blaming Wesley for his part in the kidnapping.

I never was said Connor wasn't innocent before he came to LA, I said he wasn't innocent at the end of ATS 4 which is true. Wesley is guilty for his part in the kidnapping I never denied that, sorry I thought that clear.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Connor is far from a innocent victim, he may have been in the begining but at the end of season 4 he sure wasn't innocent...

No one is talking about teenage Connor. So regardless of if I agree with you or not thats not the debate. Baby Connor, the little boy that was kidnapped was innocent. You clearly seem to hate Connor but he's not the focus of the thread.

It's not that he didn't trust them. He saw himself as the only one who could take a difficult decision amongst them. Cordy, Lorne, Fred, Gunn, they would all have had to talk to Angel about it. They couldn't have done the RIGHT thing. If he didn't trust something, it was that they would be able to do what he did(take the child away from Angel). He didn't turn to Justine and Holtz either... He just talked to them because what he wanted above all else was for Connor to be safe.

It was that he didn't trust them. He thought HE knew what was best, that he could keep Connor safe. He didn't trust the others to make the decision he thought was best. So he kept it to himself. Thats his character flaw. By consulting with Justine and Holtz he aligned himself with them. How else could Justine betray him unless they were aligned? Sorry Tom but you can't have it both ways lol.

You also have to remember that he knew Angel didn't always take the right decisions. Angel proved in s2 that he didn't have to lose his soul to do regrettables things. At this point, and with the prophecy seemingly happening as predicted, he did what he thought was best. Sadly, he couldn't expect to be backstabbed by Justine.

I'm not saying he should have told Angel. He could have, but I can see why he wouldn't tell him. That I do understand. It was the not trusting anyone else in AI that I have an issue with.

One of the themes throughout all of Joss' shows is friendship. You can't go at it alone, and when you do, things never end well. Joss pushes this theme over and over. That's why Buffy survives so long. She has what other slayers did not, her friends. Every time Wesley acts on his own instead of with the group, with his friends, things end badly. And yet he never learns.

And Katie, huh? Connor's childhood wasn't ruined ONLY because of Wesley's decision. It was ruined because of what Angel did as a soulless vampire to Holtz's family. It was ruined because Holtz couldn't let it go and had to go through all that just for revenge. It was ruined because Sahjan was afraid of the boy and opened a portal to Quor'Toth. It was also ruined because Justine stabbed Wesley. I could go on and on... The point is that you can't put all of it on Wes.

It is not Angel's fault. Holtz crossed the line when he stopped hunting only Angelus and let innocent victims like Connor be punished. Wesley's decision is how Holtz gets his hands on Connor. Whether or not he would have anyways is unknown. So therefore, at least in my opinion, Wesley is at fault for Connor losing his childhood. Yes of course I blame Holtz the most, as well as Justine and Sahjan. But Wesley was Angel's friend. It's a betrayal. That is why I have so much anger for him. Of course its easy to hate Holtz and Justine they ARE the bad guys. Wesley is his friend and when a friend betrays you its worse. Its harder to forgive.