What's your least favorite Whedon piece of work

[Skanky Vamp]

I just don't think they understood Superman. I mean, Clark Kent is just going to let Jonathon Kent die to mask his identity? And then later has SUCH a problem with killing Zod? Come on. He allows his father to die for no credible reason and then acts like it's the end of the world when he justifiably kills the biggest terrorist in world history. Zero sense.

No, he let Jonathan Kent die to honor him. To show his father that he finally understood the points he was trying to make. He let him die to grant his final wish.

He had problems killing Zod for numerous reasons. One being that he finally snapped, and in so doing went against everything his father taught him. Until that moment he never embraced violence. He was never allowed. Remember all the times he got beat up as a kid? because it was what his father wanted.

The 'end of the world' at killing Zod and his yell was partly a cathartic scream from years of having to repress his base emotions but also in going against his fathers teachings he ultimately losing him twice- as he lost his moral compass. Not to mention he just found his true father and lost him as well. And the only person that could give any other information about his planet, his people, his history- he just murdered.

In that moment he lost his earth father and the sense of justice he instilled in him, he lost his entire race and any trace of it. Moreover there were ramifications of everything that happened and fear that his father would be right, that humans would not trust him when he finally showed himself. His entire world and life changed, so yeah, it was the end of the world for him.

 

[Robb Stark]

No, he let Jonathan Kent die to honor him. To show his father that he finally understood the points he was trying to make. He let him die to grant his final wish.

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. Jonathan Kent's final wish was death? He had the opportunity to save his father and he chose not to. That's ridiculous. It completely goes against virtually everything Superman is established as.

He had problems killing Zod for numerous reasons. One being that he finally snapped, and in so doing went against everything his father taught him. Until that moment he never embraced violence. He was never allowed. Remember all the times he got beat up as a kid? because it was what his father wanted.

The 'end of the world' at killing Zod and his yell was partly a cathartic scream from years of having to repress his base emotions but also in going against his fathers teachings he ultimately losing him twice- as he lost his moral compass. Not to mention he just found his true father and lost him as well. And the only person that could give any other information about his planet, his people, his history- he just murdered.

In that moment he lost his earth father and the sense of justice he instilled in him, he lost his entire race and any trace of it. Moreover there were ramifications of everything that happened and fear that his father would be right, that humans would not trust him when he finally showed himself. His entire world and life changed, so yeah, it was the end of the world for him.

I can understand his frustration with once again being the only survivor of his planet, but it's not like Zod's death just came out of nowhere. He had clashed with Zod several times by their final encounter and knew full well that just stopping Zod was highly unlikely. It's not like he just allowed Zod to die for no real reason (he did that with his dad), or that he could have not killed Zod. He had exhausted his options with Zod, and considering how ambivalent he was about his own father's death, and the direct culpability he had in it occurring, it just struck me as really corny that the overwhelming circumstances necessitating Zod's death caused him THAT much anguish.

I really don't see how killing Zod when he had no other option, when not killing Zod would have resulted in countless more deaths, tears apart his world SO much, when he literally proves earlier in the film that he's not all that bothered by death when he deems it okay.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. Jonathan Kent's final wish was death?

Hm, yeah.. didnt you watch it?

It's not like he just allowed Zod to die for no real reason

He didn't 'allow' him to die. He killed him. It was the first time he killed anyone, (arguably anything) moreoever he did it with his bare hands. It wasn't about right or wrong, or what needed or didnt need to be done. It was about actions. And consequences of those actions.

I have a gun permit, and regularly carry my gun. If I were being attacked and there were no other option than to use my weapon and I killed the assailant. It would not make me less distraught knowing there was no other choice. It would tear it up. I do not see how that analogy is too far removed from the Zod scene.

 

[thetopher]

You know what: Nolan's Batman was pretty much as gritty and close to reality than we've ever seen before, and Batman himself is a fairly dark villain.

But he never kills anybody, not in the film, not by his own hand. Sure he allows people to die by their own hand (like Rhas' in the first movie) but that goes back to Batman's golden age origins where half the time the villain would end up screwing up and killing themselves because of their evil scheme.

Superman doesn't kill. Ever.
He finds another way, He's supposed to be a hero that other heroes look up to.

If a writer forgets what character he's trying to portray then its just lazy f***in' writing imo.
Go and write the next Punisher movie- Frank Castle loves snapping necks.

To Hell with this movie. 'Superman Returns' was better than this steaming pile. 😡



But, back to the topic, I'm not a huge fan of AoS, I think mostly its a big, fat letdown from what it could've been. It was bolstered slightly by its plot-association with CA:tWS though.

I do hope S2 is a hell of a lot better, and Joss' name as EP actually means something.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

@the topher,i would've rep you ,but couldn't

 

[thetopher]

[/QUOTE]Robb Stark agrees: I agree with what you said about MoS (awful) but...Superman has killed in the comics. However, it may not be canon anymore, so idk

He has? Ah, crap.

Well, I'll admit that I'm not really a big comic reader anymore, but I always reckoned that Supes wouldn't do that, hasn't he got the 'phantom zone prison' thing for Kryptonian villains?

Last thing I read, (years back) WW killed somebody with her bare hands. But she's an Amazonian Warrior- generally you don't f**k around with them, y'know. Trained to kill and all that, I get it.

Anyway, if you ask most people who are fans of Superman, would Superman kill a guy under any curcumstances, I think they'd say no, its not in his character. Just like its not in Bats or Spider-man's nature too.

But, knowing modern comics they too have probably done crazy 'dramatic dark' stuff like kill little kittens or make deals with Satan or some shit like that, so what do I know. 🙄

I still think attempts to make Superman 'dark' or edgy' completely miss the point of his character, just like this movie did. 🙂

 

[Taake]

Hey guys, lets stick to the topic please 🙂

 

[Robb Stark]

@Scobro

Scobro agrees: maybe only 10% of what you said was valid points.

Nope, you just failed completely to address the crux of my arugment, which I'm assuming is because yours made zero sense.

🙂

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Very unpopular opinion, but I didn't enjoy The Avengers at all. I watched it with my sister and it was just so boring to me. I'm not a big superhero fan though 😛 I absolutely love Spider-Man but The Avengers... meh.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I know I'll get so much hate, I hate the Avengers. 0%Plot, 0%personality, 100%explosions

I am glad I'm not alone lol Most overrated hunk of cat shit Ever 

No, he let Jonathan Kent die to honor him. To show his father that he finally understood the points he was trying to make. He let him die to grant his final wish.

He had problems killing Zod for numerous reasons. One being that he finally snapped, and in so doing went against everything his father taught him. Until that moment he never embraced violence. He was never allowed. Remember all the times he got beat up as a kid? because it was what his father wanted.

The 'end of the world' at killing Zod and his yell was partly a cathartic scream from years of having to repress his base emotions but also in going against his fathers teachings he ultimately losing him twice- as he lost his moral compass. Not to mention he just found his true father and lost him as well. And the only person that could give any other information about his planet, his people, his history- he just murdered.

In that moment he lost his earth father and the sense of justice he instilled in him, he lost his entire race and any trace of it. Moreover there were ramifications of everything that happened and fear that his father would be right, that humans would not trust him when he finally showed himself. His entire world and life changed, so yeah, it was the end of the world for him.

snuggins

 

[FaithsFollower]

Least favourite: Firefly

And I'm not changing my mind!! 😛

 

[Anointed One]

Avengers. I also couldn't get into Dollhouse. Though, I think it's due to Eliza playing the lead character.

 

[Mr Trick]

Well I didn't know that he was involved in the script for that Alien film which in case I would say that for now.

Love Buffy, love Angel, like Firefly. I think most of his film scripts have been good the one that gets really underlooked is the Toy Story script. I don't get this hate for Cabin in the Woods? It is a really smart, stylish, and funny film, with some nice creature effects too. It is the perfect film for people who love horror films, but also hate horror films. It is like one on going essay on the subject. I guess I prefer something like Scream, but I still think Josh and Goddard did a really good job.

Avengers I thought might be a mess just because of having all those superheroes in the same film. But I liked because he made it more light hearted and ironic which was the right direction to go after the heavy/dark stuff in the Batman. But there are still some darker moments too. Josh actually invested personality in the characters and did a really good job in balancing all those stories. Have only seen it the once, so who knows I might dislike it second time around, but I did enjoy it first time around.

Have only seen one episode of Dollhouse, didn't really like it, but it was just one episode on its own so would like to see more.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

I almost want to watch Alien: Resurrection just to say I've seen it. But once these things are done, they can never be undone.

I know enough about the plot to know about human-Xenomorph hybrid Ripley who has lesbian subtext with Robot!Winona Ryder, the Alien Queen cloned from Ripley somehow getting a human womb (lol wut) and Brad Dourif saying "BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLY," all of which I'm pretty sure was in Joss's script and he can't blame the director for that one. We all have off days Joss, just accept the blame and move on.

Avengers is awesome, but it is vastly overhyped, much like all the Marvel movies. Guardians is even worse though, I have no idea how that is as popular as it is.

 

[Mr Trick]

I almost want to watch Alien: Resurrection just to say I've seen it. But once these things are done, they can never be undone.

I know enough about the plot to know about human-Xenomorph hybrid Ripley who has lesbian subtext with Robot!Winona Ryder, the Alien Queen cloned from Ripley somehow getting a human womb (lol wut) and Brad Dourif saying "BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLY," all of which I'm pretty sure was in Joss's script and he can't blame the director for that one. We all have off days Joss, just accept the blame and move on.

Avengers is awesome, but it is vastly overhyped, much like all the Marvel movies. Guardians is even worse though, I have no idea how that is as popular as it is.

How do you know he doesn't accept the blame?

I guess in a way Avengers is overhyped but in another way it does stand out as one of the best superheroes films ever. No, I loved the Guardians so don't agree on that one either. Thought it was a really clever perody of films like Star Wars, the casting was spot-on and I loved the music and style of it. And again it was refreshing to have a light hearted Sci-Fi.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

How do you know he doesn't accept the blame?

I guess in a way Avengers is overhyped but in another way it does stand out as one of the best superheroes films ever. No, I loved the Guardians so don't agree on that one either. Thought it was a really clever perody of films like Star Wars, the casting was spot-on and I loved the music and style of it. And again it was refreshing to have a light hearted Sci-Fi.

Well, this article here has him discussing the casting decisions and how they were all wrong. It mentions the Brad Dourif character, so we know Whedon is responsible for that stupid "butterfly" line. I've seen elsewhere that he blamed the director for shooting it all wrong compared to how he wrote it in the script, and doesn't really say there were problems with his script itself. Maybe he's changed his stance over the years: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=77814

Avengers is one of my favorite CBMs, along with Winter Soldier. But geek culture tends to worship these successful projects as if they are pagan idols or something. Not saying you or anyone else here is doing that, but elsewhere on the web it is the case. It creates hype backlash. As for Guardians, I really liked it the first time I saw it, but struggled through it the second time. It was just too juvenile in some parts, and the villains were incredibly bland.

 

[Mr Trick]

Well, this article here has him discussing the casting decisions and how they were all wrong. It mentions the Brad Dourif character, so we know Whedon is responsible for that stupid "butterfly" line. I've seen elsewhere that he blamed the director for shooting it all wrong compared to how he wrote it in the script, and doesn't really say there were problems with his script itself. Maybe he's changed his stance over the years: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=77814

Avengers is one of my favorite CBMs, along with Winter Soldier. But geek culture tends to worship these successful projects as if they are pagan idols or something. Not saying you or anyone else here is doing that, but elsewhere on the web it is the case. It creates hype backlash. As for Guardians, I really liked it the first time I saw it, but struggled through it the second time. It was just too juvenile in some parts, and the villains were incredibly bland.

But weren't the villains bland on purpose because it was sending up cheesy Sci-Fi?

Thanks for the Whedon/Aliens info.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

But weren't the villains bland on purpose because it was sending up cheesy Sci-Fi?

Thanks for the Whedon/Aliens info.

I don't think they did it on purpose. With the exceptions of Loki and Robert Redford's character in Winter Soldier, the Marvel movie villains have been complete duds, so I'm not surprised Ronan is just as bad. I found myself a little more interested in Nebula, but even she was kind of generic. On a more positive note, Ultron looks pretty fearsome, so I hope he is another exception like Loki.

 

[Mr Trick]

I don't think they did it on purpose. With the exceptions of Loki and Robert Redford's character in Winter Soldier, the Marvel movie villains have been complete duds, so I'm not surprised Ronan is just as bad. I found myself a little more interested in Nebula, but even she was kind of generic. On a more positive note, Ultron looks pretty fearsome, so I hope he is another exception like Loki.

But you do except that GOTG is more of a parody? So if you except that then doesn't it stand to reason than they would make the villains silly or maybe bland on purpose? Its not like in Buffy where it is trying to combine the dramatic with the comedy. For me that film was about 97% comedy.

 

[The Ferg]

Buffy is probably my favorite thing ever, including family and friends. 😛 I adore Angel, Firefly, Serenity, Dr. Horrible and Avengers. I love Dollhouse, Astonishing X-Men, and Cabin in the Woods. And I really like Much Ado, In Your Eyes, Sugarshock!, Runaways, Agents of SHIELD, and his Glee and Office episodes. The guy does not f*** around (forgot what the spoiler policy is here). If it wasn't for Alien: Resurrection it'd be really hard to pick something I truly dislike. There's been pretty bad episodes/arcs in his shows/comics, but I've never hated an entire season, let alone the entire show.
I will say though... and I'm not sure how much involvement he's had in Agents of SHIELD Season 2, but it's gone right down the crapper.

By far the worst of the Alien movies, at least until Prmometheus came along and redefined the term 'dumb ass lazy character motivation'. 🙂

Prometheus wasn't perfect, but there's no way you're telling me it's worse than Resurrection (or Alien3, for that matter). 

But you do except that GOTG is more of a parody? So if you except that then doesn't it stand to reason than they would make the villains silly or maybe bland on purpose? Its not like in Buffy where it is trying to combine the dramatic with the comedy. For me that film was about 97% comedy.

No way. Guardians is exactly like Buffy and Avengers. Its silly and funny, but it also takes itself quite seriously, and has some rather dark and poignant moments. The villain didn't feel like he was supposed to be bland or silly on purpose. I didn't think he was funny at all actually. It really just felt like lazy villain writing to me. That's not to say that takes away anything from the film though. It's a sore spot for sure, but the movie is hardly about the villain, or the plot for that matter, it's an origin story about Quill and the formation of the Guardians.