Who deserves Hell more? Faith, Spike, or Warren

GoSpuffy said:
Warren absolutely.

Anya had a soul when she was a demon? News to me.
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A soulless demon doesn't usually save Giles. It also doesn't turn a woman's husband into a French when frog is an option. And also the willing-to-self-sacrifice to reverse the wish thing.
 
Taake said:
Does having a soul, for either him or Angel, make up for all the lives they took when soulless? Is that something you ever could atone for? Does remorse make up for centuries of death? They are still demons after all, demons with souls, but demons nonetheless. I'm not sure. Best they better stay alive.
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Demons who go to hell get to torture souls - that's kind of what hell is. Pavayne pointed out that Spike getting his soul doomed him to hell, which had never occurred to me'

PAVAYNE
Look... hell knows you're ready, plump and ripe. Beginning to understand, aren't you? The soul that blesses you...
(Spike has flashes of a vision of someone being tortured)
...damns you to suffer forever.
(holds Spike's head up toward the portal)
You go now, William, so I can stay.

Snyder said:
But did Anya have her soul when she was a vengeance demon? I thought all demons were unsouled!
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Giles says that Vengeance demons are souled. That's why Anya and Xander can be together - since having her go get a soul would be way too much time.

Snyder said:
you think the human's soul pays for the sins of the demon that kills them? but that would be unfair 🙁
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Yeah - sucks, doesn't it. Imagine the fun Angelus would have in hell, though - then you can see why.
 
Warren. As others have stated, he was a murderous misogynist who showed no remorse. On the other hand, we know nothing of Warren's history or backstory. Was he mistreated by a woman he knows, like his mother? Did he have a horrific childhood? We don't know. Faith did really awful stuff. She murdered that professor in cold blood, probably would have killed Xander, would have killed Angel if Buffy hadn't feed him her blood, and maimed countless other people. The difference is that they gave us an understanding of why she did what she did, and a tragic backstory. We took Warren's murder of Tara a lot more personal than the random people Faith killed because she was a main character. We took Warren attempting to rape Katrina more seriously than Faith essentially raping Riley because we were supposed to. The Faith/Riley thing was never addressed in that light. Plus it doesn't hurt that she was charismatic and sexy, whereas Warren was an obnoxious creepy dweeb. What I'm saying is that the fiction can twist how we see things. In actuality Warren and Faith's actions weren't that different, it's the writing that was. And Faith attempting redemption is the only thing that separates them...but she didn't attempt redemption until a year after her initial crimes, and even then she was still attacking people and torturing Wesley right up until her breaking point. Who knows if down the line Warren would have also realized the error of his ways? We never had the time to find out. I think we can all admit that we partially forgive Faith because we love her. It's a lil prejudice.
 
I don't think Faith deserves hell. She turned herself in and became a better person. Not to mention that her misbehavior is the result of neglect. She was a teenage girl who was scared when she killed by accident and the Scoobies didn't handle it well.

Spike, too, has fought for a soul which is a great achivement for a soulless vampire.
 
Monkey Pants said:
Warren. As others have stated, he was a murderous misogynist who showed no remorse. On the other hand, we know nothing of Warren's history or backstory. Was he mistreated by a woman he knows, like his mother? Did he have a horrific childhood? We don't know. Faith did really awful stuff. She murdered that professor in cold blood, probably would have killed Xander, would have killed Angel if Buffy hadn't feed him her blood, and maimed countless other people. The difference is that they gave us an understanding of why she did what she did, and a tragic backstory. We took Warren's murder of Tara a lot more personal than the random people Faith killed because she was a main character. We took Warren attempting to rape Katrina more seriously than Faith essentially raping Riley because we were supposed to. The Faith/Riley thing was never addressed in that light. Plus it doesn't hurt that she was charismatic and sexy, whereas Warren was an obnoxious creepy dweeb. What I'm saying is that the fiction can twist how we see things. In actuality Warren and Faith's actions weren't that different, it's the writing that was. And Faith attempting redemption is the only thing that separates them...but she didn't attempt redemption until a year after her initial crimes, and even then she was still attacking people and torturing Wesley right up until her breaking point. Who knows if down the line Warren would have also realized the error of his ways? We never had the time to find out. I think we can all admit that we partially forgive Faith because we love her. It's a lil prejudice.
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I totally agree on the writing part. Yet, we do know some things about Warren though. He was insecure, nerdy and seemingly unpopular among peers. That is why he probably could not have a girlfriend and made April. He, as almost all characters in Buffyverse, did have issues as well. However the question is, did those issues justify his actions. I do not think so. Also, unlike Faith, he had much more options to not do evil things. He was talented in robotics, he had peers (Andrew, Jonathan), who, I admit, decided to become evil, but he still could see that he could have a "place in the world". He was not involved into any supernatural forces and did not have any powers, that made him more aggressive or gave him any duty, that was hard to handle, unlike Faith or Spike. Additionally Warren purposely decided to become evil and to do bad and lead the others in the trio, neither Faith nor Spike did that. Spike went for the rush and Faith felt lost and rejected.
So to sum up, although i do think that every person deserves to be forgiven no matter what in terms of hell and heaven, i would say the one that deserves Hell is certainly Warren.
 
Monkey Pants said:
Warren. As others have stated, he was a murderous misogynist who showed no remorse. On the other hand, we know nothing of Warren's history or backstory. Was he mistreated by a woman he knows, like his mother? Did he have a horrific childhood? We don't know. Faith did really awful stuff. She murdered that professor in cold blood, probably would have killed Xander, would have killed Angel if Buffy hadn't feed him her blood, and maimed countless other people. The difference is that they gave us an understanding of why she did what she did, and a tragic backstory. We took Warren's murder of Tara a lot more personal than the random people Faith killed because she was a main character. We took Warren attempting to rape Katrina more seriously than Faith essentially raping Riley because we were supposed to. The Faith/Riley thing was never addressed in that light. Plus it doesn't hurt that she was charismatic and sexy, whereas Warren was an obnoxious creepy dweeb. What I'm saying is that the fiction can twist how we see things. In actuality Warren and Faith's actions weren't that different, it's the writing that was. And Faith attempting redemption is the only thing that separates them...but she didn't attempt redemption until a year after her initial crimes, and even then she was still attacking people and torturing Wesley right up until her breaking point. Who knows if down the line Warren would have also realized the error of his ways? We never had the time to find out. I think we can all admit that we partially forgive Faith because we love her. It's a lil prejudice.
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Sternbeeere said:
I totally agree on the writing part. Yet, we do know some things about Warren though. He was insecure, nerdy and seemingly unpopular among peers. That is why he probably could not have a girlfriend and made April. He, as almost all characters in Buffyverse, did have issues as well. However the question is, did those issues justify his actions. I do not think so. Also, unlike Faith, he had much more options to not do evil things. He was talented in robotics, he had peers (Andrew, Jonathan), who, I admit, decided to become evil, but he still could see that he could have a "place in the world". He was not involved into any supernatural forces and did not have any powers, that made him more aggressive or gave him any duty, that was hard to handle, unlike Faith or Spike. Additionally Warren purposely decided to become evil and to do bad and lead the others in the trio, neither Faith nor Spike did that. Spike went for the rush and Faith felt lost and rejected.
So to sum up, although i do think that every person deserves to be forgiven no matter what in terms of hell and heaven, i would say the one that deserves Hell is certainly Warren.
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^
A combination of both posts, adding that Warren was, in the comics, still a sleazy bastard - he didn't learn anything from his "assassination". He was a little more "tamed" with Amy because his life depended on her magics; and even so, he said to her he was willing to built a robot-Amy with no mouth.
 
Warren. He had a soul and he attempted to kill buffy. He also killed his old girlfriend and Tara as well as plotting to kill many others, basically leaving his friends Jonathan and Andrew for dead. I don't believe spike or faith should go to hell. Faith clearly repeats in Angel and she continues to fight evil in season 7 and the comics. Spike didn't have a soul when he tried to rape buffy and then represented and arguably tried to kill himself (draping himself across the cross as it burnt him)
 
Dolores said:
Warren. For everything but that scene where he has Katrina under the spell and tells her to get on her knees. God I hate that guy. Vile.
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Warren is probably one of the most evil characters on the whole show, despite of being a human. And i hate him as well.
 
bespangeled said:
So which one did Spike do?
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Regretting of evil deeds and then not repeating them.
But Spike thought that the mere act of getting a soul absolved him of all wrong doing from his past. He thought he had been given absolution for his sins.
 
Iwearthecheese said:
Regretting of evil deeds and then not repeating them.
But Spike thought that the mere act of getting a soul absolved him of all wrong doing from his past. He thought he had been given absolution for his sins.
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But on the other hand, don't we usually look at a vampire with a soul, and a vampire without a soul as two completely different people? Faith had a soul when she did everything.
 
Monkey Pants said:
But on the other hand, don't we usually look at a vampire with a soul, and a vampire without a soul as two completely different people?
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Some do (not me) but the main point is that in the show Spike and Angel DO NOT make that distinction.
They are the same people who did those evil deeds and act according to their own psychology, they are changed but not a completely different person.
Morally speaking that goes to if they are 'deserving' of hell or not as a concept.
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
Good point
Faith was human but made up for what she did, so not her.

Warren didn't.

If we're talking amount of damage done, Spike, but he didn't have a soul, of course, and doesn't seem to be that deadset on making up for what he did ("I don't give a piss about atonement"). However, he feels remorse and does a lot of good, which counts for something.

That leaves Warren.
 
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