Who earned his soul the most?

[MSchett]

So it didn't FORCE him to do it but he did it solely because of it...

 

[Airam]

Well... still kinda wrong IMO. He wouldn't have ever thought to start without the chip but I also don't think its fair to say that he did it solely because of it, there had to be a little something else in him that drove him, I mean he could've just left town...

🙂

What?! lol, I can't help myself.

 

[MSchett]

Youd think you would have ran out of straws to clutch at by now...

Spike was evil and woulda stayed that way the chip and thats that... End of Conversation... Good Night! 😉

Airam agrees: Nighty night...sweet *spike* dreams 🙂

More like nightmares... If i dream about a person from Buffy im hoping for Anya then itll be funny and sexually provacative at the same time 😉

 

[anyatara]

I love Angel. So I can't believe I'm about to say Spike. But I am. Spike earned it way more than Angel because Angel didn't EARN it. He got it as punishment. Spike earned his by doing all those trails but Angel just got it forced upon him for killing a gypsy. So yeah defiantley Spike.

 

[fly on the wall]

I do not agree with. The chip did not force him to do things he wouldn't have allowed himself to do pre-chip, especially not to help/fight beside the scoobies. I have to reiterate that the ONLY thing the chip forced him to do was to not inflict physical harm on humans. The chip might have made him feel helpless but any descisions he made as to how to lead his life with the chip was all him. The chip did not hypnotize him into acting a certain way or doing any certain thing.

Spike is violent by nature. He had to hurt SOMETHING or he'd go insane. And since he couldn't hurt humans, his only choice was to hurt other demons. So yes, the chip made it so he did things he never would have done without it...attack demons instead of humans, seek the Scoobies for protection from the Initiative, etc etc etc. All of this was humanizing him and prepping him for eventually seeking a soul.

 

[Airam]

Spike is violent by nature. He had to hurt SOMETHING or he'd go insane.

Probably.

And since he couldn't hurt humans, his only choice was to hurt other demons. So yes, the chip made it so he did things he never would have done without it...attack demons instead of humans...

Maybe.

....seek the Scoobies for protection from the Initiative, etc etc etc.

No. The chip did not make it so that he HAD to do this. If he hated them all so much, the very last thing he would have wanted to do was find any kind of refuge in them. He could have left town, far from the Initiative, fought demons in order to get the violence out elsewhere (if we're assuming he just had to fight something) and found someone that could help him figure out what the chip did and how to get it out or neutralize it. I just don't don't believe any of this HAD to be accomplished in Sunnydale.

All of this was humanizing him and prepping him for eventually seeking a soul.

Yes. I believe thats true, but because he was open to that humanizing to happen to him. He could have rejected it with all the undead life left in him, the chip wasn't stopping him from doing that.

 

[MSchett]

I believe thats true, but because he was open to that humanizing to happen to him. He could have rejected it with all the undead life left in him, the chip wasn't stopping him from doing that.

Isn't that what he was doing throughout s4 on a warpath to find someone to get his chip out

 

[Airam]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that he very well could have done that all on his own somewhere other than Sunnydale without ever thinking of soliciting the scobbies help for anything whatsoever.

 

[Veyron]

Spike is violent by nature. He had to hurt SOMETHING or he'd go insane. And since he couldn't hurt humans, his only choice was to hurt other demons. So yes, the chip made it so he did things he never would have done without it...attack demons instead of humans, seek the Scoobies for protection from the Initiative, etc etc etc. All of this was humanizing him and prepping him for eventually seeking a soul.

I gave Fly a karmic response, but I believe that the first sentence deserves a reply.

Spike is violent by nature - that's true - the demon that was in his body before he got his soul back was violent by nature - William wasn't, and when he got his soul back Spike became a man again - he became an ex-demon.

William was a nice, sweet man who just wanted to be loved by someone - he got rejected and then sired. Because the demon that took over his human form has access to his memories it took revenge for him and thus he became William the Bloody or Spike because of 'his' (the demon that is, not William) favourite method of torture.

To say he'd have to hurt something or go insane, well that's a fair comment - and as Spike found out he could hurt demons etc without pain so fighting on the side of the 'good guys' was the way to go if he wanted to remain in Sunnydale which he obviously did as he was either starting to fall for or was already in love with Buffy.

Getting rid of the chip in S4 could have been done out of town or by some of the underworld contacts both human and demon that Spike knew in Sunnydale, but he chose to do it openly - I mean - why go see the Trio to get them to check out the chip! Spike might have just as well told them that he's a vamp who can't actually hurt them!

Even though the morons never actually picked up on that fact at any point - I expect the holding to ransom of their beloved Star Wars figure might have had something to do with that though.

So Spike earnt his humanity and his soul, the love a Slayer and hopefully the respect of his peers in the Scooby Gang by his actions in Chosen. Angel came, gave Buffy the talisman which ultimately Spike wore and buggered off back to LA because Buffy told him to go - if he loved her he would have put his foot down and stayed for the battle against the First... but Angel being Angel decided to save his own skin and head back to LA... Okay, so he saved the world once or twice himself afterward, but that's not the point here.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Who earned his soul the most?

Well based purely on that question the answer is Spike being that the vampire fought for the soul to be restored HOWEVER his motivation was purely selfish.

Angel on the other hand had NOTHING to do with his soul being restored, that was down to Angelus and Darla feasting on a gypsy girl.
He had no time to prepare and no help from anyone, so when it was thrust on him he quite rightly didn't know how to deal with it.

Why is there a need to say one deserved anything more than the other.

Both were scoundrels to the highest degree yet both, post soul restore, have done good deeds, saved the world and sacrificed themselves.

It saddens me that people feel a need now to quantify the issue that one was better than the other.

If we believe that Angel and Angelus are different beings (which we must do as the show tells us this with the whole Superman 3 scene in Orpheus) then it stands to reason that Spike pre and post soul are different too, so neither can be blamed, or indeed take credit, for what the other did.

Anyone who picks a specific person really has allowed their judgement to be clouded and needs to be able to separate the 4 different entities - Spike/Spike(v)/Angel/Angelus.

Darla is also a good reference for this in her entire run in season 2/3 of Angel as she is Human, Vampire and Vampire with a Soul.

 

[charmingslayer]

Heres my thought.

Angel got cursed with a soul.

Spiked by himself earned his soul.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Heres my thought.

Angel got cursed with a soul.

Spiked by himself earned his soul.

Angelus 'got cursed with a Soul' - Angel was the result

Unsouled Spike earned himself a Soul - Souled Spike is the result.

2 sets of two different beings.

 

[Airam]

If we believe that Angel and Angelus are different beings (which we must do as the show tells us this with the whole Superman 3 scene in Orpheus) then it stands to reason that Spike pre and post soul are different too, so neither can be blamed, or indeed take credit, for what the other did.

Anyone who picks a specific person really has allowed their judgement to be clouded and needs to be able to separate the 4 different entities - Spike/Spike(v)/Angel/Angelus.

Darla is also a good reference for this in her entire run in season 2/3 of Angel as she is Human, Vampire and Vampire with a Soul.

I have to really disagree with all that. Just because the excuse has always been made for Angel that Angelus is completely different person than him (which is convinient) doesn't mean that Spike pre and post-soul are two completely seperate entities. Angel/Angelus are night and day, wheras Spike went on a gradual path of progression, by the time he got his soul (aside from the attempted rape fiascio slip-up) he'd already managed to make most of the changes within him himself... when he got the soul the only blatant difference in his person was the actual physical presence of the soul, but Spike was still Spike. And if Spike were to for some reason lose his soul he would not revert back to a monster that would immediately want to kill Buffy and her friends. When Angel loses his soul there is no semblance of Angel left, he DOES revert back to a monster. I think that that is too important a distinction between Spike and Angel to ignore.

And as for Darla, she never actually had a soul right? She was just pregnant, the baby's soul was what was affecting her, and she herself was scared to death that once the baby was born she'd loose any humanity she was feeling again.... So I think Darla is more like Angel/Angelus in that way, but maybe not... I just think it shows not every vampire is bound by the same rules. If they want they can shape and path their own destiny, even change their core if they desire it enough, Spike is blinding proof of that.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I have to really disagree with all that. Just because the excuse has always been made for Angel that Angelus is completely different person than him (which is convinient) doesn't mean that Spike pre and post-soul are two completely seperate entities. Angel/Angelus are night and day, wheras Spike went on a gradual path of progression, by the time he got his soul (aside from the attempted rape fiascio slip-up) he'd already managed to make most of the changes within him himself... when he got the soul the only blatant difference in his person was the actual physical presence of the soul, but Spike was still Spike. And if Spike were to for some reason lose his soul he would not revert back to a monster that would immediately want to kill Buffy and her friends. When Angel loses his soul there is no semblance of Angel left, he DOES revert back to a monster. I think that that is too important a distinction between Spike and Angel to ignore.

In season 6, the moment Spike believed he could kill, he tried.
His feelings for Buffy aside (as THIS is the only thing that made him different) you cannot guarantee that he wouldn't want to kill the gang and/or anyone else.
Spike's rape attempt is not the exception to the rule that you so blatantly disregard, this was another sign of selfish and evil Vampire - one of the reasons Spike leaves for his Soul is because of his selfish want of Buffy, not because he wants to 'be a better man'. He doesn't understand the ramifications of his 'quest' and when he comes back he IS a different being.

We're told that the soul is the conscience, the thing that separates us from the evil of the Vampire BUT without it we're completely different people - hence not being held accountable for our actions.

And as for Darla, she never actually had a soul right? She was just pregnant, the baby's soul was what was affecting her, and she herself was scared to death that once the baby was born she'd loose any humanity she was feeling again.... So I think Darla is more like Angel/Angelus in that way, but maybe not... I just think it shows not every vampire is bound by the same rules. If they want they can shape and path their own destiny, even change their core if they desire it enough, Spike is blinding proof of that.

I don't understand what you are saying here at all.

Darla was influenced by a Soul - just as Angel and post souled Spike, that is fact. When she kills herself it is because she knows that she will lose this person that she is, this caring mother and the monster Darla will come back.

For all intent and purpose Darla had a soul and this showed us that she was completely different to evil Vampire Darla.

 

[Veyron]

The attempted rape of Buffy by Spike was borne out of frustration - nothing more, nothing less - it has nothing to do with being evil or not, having or not having a soul -- the end of that scene and the attempted rape was the result of Spike not being able to cope with Buffy's constant rejection of his advances (her insecurities about dating another vamp) and the confusion that he felt because of the time that Buffy and he had spent to together.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The attempted rape of Buffy by Spike was borne out of frustration .. it has nothing to do with .. having or not having a soul --

I disagree.. I think it was very much paramount to having or not having a soul. Without the soul the actions were acceptable and justified. He was plenty frustrated with her when he had a soul and never raped her. With no soul there was no sense of right or wrong.

 

[hannahfngrl26]

It is kinda hard to say who earned it more. I realize that Angel was cursed with his and Spike sought it out. The question for me becomes who did the most with it. Ultimately I think Spike sought his soul for personal reasons. I recognize that he did some good fo sho but he did enjoy still being kind of evil which is intersting. Angel, once done with the rat poo, thanks to Whistler really did all he could to become a true champion. I am a huge Angel fan as you all know and with that being said I am starting to thiink of the episode in Angel called "Destiny" where Angel and Spike battle it out to drink from the "Cup of Perpetual Torment" and if I remember correctly the person who drank from the cup became the ultimate hero or some such thing and then possibly human.? It is just like Angel said. "He wanted it more." in regards to Spike. I, again, am a huge Angel fan but I am just saying, what was that about? But then again Angel did get all fluffy and soft sitting in that Wolfram and Heart office chair for a time.......

 

[Kana]

Angelus 'got cursed with a Soul' - Angel was the result

Unsouled Spike earned himself a Soul - Souled Spike is the result.

2 sets of two different beings.

It depends on which theory we are going to use. If the soul is a very person but just the immaterial part of them then absolutely: soulled Spike didn't do anything more than Angel, the demon did. This also means that Angel shouldn't feel all that guilty for the crimes of Angelus and soulled Spike cannot claim credit for getting a soul.

If the soul is the conscience then yes Spike did earn is soul back whereas Angel didn't but it becomes difficult to discern his motivation. While I don't doubt there was a selfless element to what he did, but it does make me wonder what the conscience is and what it's function is. It cannot be the intellectual understanding of morality because we know that vampires have this. Spike's not stupid, he knows what Buffy and co would consider right and he has a history of doing what he believes was wrong. I hypothosized that humans (in the Verse) have an internal emotional pull towards certain actions. In short humans have a certain natural disposition and free will within this disposition. Although vampires retain a sense of continued consciousness and sense of identity (no matter what theory you believe, you have to admit that's true), they also take on the characteristics of most vampires as remorseless killers. Spike is no different in this respect as he showed no remorse for his past actions before he got a soul.

Just wanted to make a distinction between the different theories presented on the show.

Theory 1: Soul is the person you are and you essentially die and the demon takes your memories and body.

This is mainly supported by the WC.

Theory 2: The soul is merely a conscience.

Darla seemed to be more akin to this theory as she is perhaps the most consistent about her identity and responsibility.

I have to really disagree with all that. Just because the excuse has always been made for Angel that Angelus is completely different person than him (which is convinient) doesn't mean that Spike pre and post-soul are two completely seperate entities.

Well I don't see how there should be any metaphysical differences between them so I agree. I believe th difference between Spike and Angel(us) is purely psychological, whichever theory we use.

Angel/Angelus are night and day, wheras Spike went on a gradual path of progression, by the time he got his soul (aside from the attempted rape fiascio slip-up) he'd already managed to make most of the changes within him himself... when he got the soul the only blatant difference in his person was the actual physical presence of the soul, but Spike was still Spike.

Spike was still Spike in a way but of course, like you said he was difference. Having a soul had to make a difference otherwise it was pointless having it. I know Joss is all about the metaphor and in some cultures people actually believe the soul is earned through deeds. However metaphysically it's messy because he may as well not have had a soul because if he was able to do the 'right things for the right reasons' prior to having a conscience then, what is the soul?

My overall theory on Spike is that he did what he did for Buffy. It was partly an unconscious journey which was done for the woman he loves rather than his inherent believes in morality. Spike is self-aware but not really one to be self-reflective. If you like, he changed from the outside in, which is fine.

Many say that Angel's problem is weakness. I'd be inclined to agree in a sense. He's weak and he fails but that's why I like him. I don't think he wants the Angel/Angelus split, so perhaps it was his way of psyche dealing with the severity of what he's done without a conscience. I'd say that he has a sort of dissociative identity disorder, an ailment he has no apparent control over. Maybe this is partly conscious but knowing what we know of Angel, he wouldn't allow the people he cares about to be in danger on purpose.

I kind of like that Angel is wonderfully f**ked up. He deals with his weaknesses the best way he knows how and carries on forging his path. That is why he is a hero to me.

In season 6, the moment Spike believed he could kill, he tried.

Yes and Spike also said he would kill all of Buffy's friends if he got the chance, in Season 6, the very season of his soul getting. Whether he would have actually done it or not, is another question. Angel with a soul let the demon hold sway for a while so we cannot tell if Spike would continue down the path of killing if he lost his soul or even the chip based upon his love for Buffy and his subsequent attachments. The thing about blondie bear is that with or without a soul he forms attachments better than Angel. Whether this would have been enough? I'm not sure.

His feelings for Buffy aside (as THIS is the only thing that made him different) you cannot guarantee that he wouldn't want to kill the gang and/or anyone else.
Spike's rape attempt is not the exception to the rule that you so blatantly disregard, this was another sign of selfish and evil Vampire - one of the reasons Spike leaves for his Soul is because of his selfish want of Buffy, not because he wants to 'be a better man'. He doesn't understand the ramifications of his 'quest' and when he comes back he IS a different being.

Ah yes, you've just address the issues here. He may well have been on the journey but I wouldn't have removed the chip without his soul firmly in place. Whether he did what he did for selfish reasons, I don't know. I can appreciate the value of what he did for Buffy but I agree it wasn't to do with atonement for it's own sake, otherwise he would have shown remorse for his actions before.

We're told that the soul is the conscience, the thing that separates us from the evil of the Vampire BUT without it we're completely different people - hence not being held accountable for our actions.

I'm not sure what you mean by different, but in either case I'd agree. I don't judge soulless vampires by human standards if at all.

The attempted rape of Buffy by Spike was borne out of frustration - nothing more, nothing less - it has nothing to do with being evil or not, having or not having a soul -- the end of that scene and the attempted rape was the result of Spike not being able to cope with Buffy's constant rejection of his advances (her insecurities about dating another vamp) and the confusion that he felt because of the time that Buffy and he had spent to together.

It doesn't help matters that he isn't very reflective and sometimes doesn't really think things through. I'd agree that the AR wasn't about the typical power games that are often associated with such an act. Spike was definitely at a crossroads. He didn't have a soul but he wasn't behaving like a demon. I think this is what sparked the soul quest to a degree. He had enogh insight to realise something was amiss.

It is just like Angel said. "He wanted it more." in regards to Spike. I, again, am a huge Angel fan but I am just saying, what was that about? But then again Angel did get all fluffy and soft sitting in that Wolfram and Heart office chair for a time.......

I think Gunn had a point when he said the cup didn't really mean anything but, you're right, him not wanting it enough addressed his general malaise he was experiencing in that season. He had grown weary of the mantle of vampire with a soul while Spike was fresh to the idea of being a champion with his shiny new soul. I liked the bit with the cross, Spike takes the pain while Angel can hardly touch it. It's like's soul is burning him while Spike's is giving him strength. Compare this to a few years ago when Angel surmounts holy water and crosses for Darla.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Compare this to a few years ago when Angel surmounts holy water and crosses for Darla.

Are we meant to infer that a good piece of booty is better than being human?

 

[Kana]

Are we meant to infer that a good piece of booty is better than being human?

Lol, I was referring more to Angel's general state of mind. Even after he gave up on the idea of a shiny reward in favour of good deeds for it's own sake, he still went for it with gusto. Unfortunately Angel went from being a powerful existential hero in Season 2 to a nihilistic has been in Season 5.