Who earned his soul the most?

[Edmund Blackadder]

Substantiative arguments.. Not my strongest

Oh, I know, trust me I know!!!

 

[Perny]

Oh, I know, trust me I know!!!

To my defense..... It's hard when you have to debate and discuss on another language!!

 

[Airam]

Spike's rape attempt is not the exception to the rule that you so blatantly disregard, this was another sign of selfish and evil Vampire - one of the reasons Spike leaves for his Soul is because of his selfish want of Buffy, not because he wants to 'be a better man'.

I still don't understand why so many people write off Spike going to get his soul as "selfish." So what if he did it because of Buffy? Why is that selfish? He did it because of Buffy, but IMO NOT in the selfish, "Ooh I just want this to impress her" way. I see it as him going on that quest in order to ensure that there would be a soul inside him that could anchor the demon and work as a guarantee that the demon wouldn't lose control and inadvertently hurt her again. Thats why he went and got the soul, because even without a soul he felt such intense remorse over the attempted rape. So yeah he did it for her, but I think thats actually pretty selfless. Many people also love to go on and on about how any good Spike ever did wasn't because he actually wanted to do good or help, it was only for Buffy and that if he wasn't obsessed with "getting" Buffy that he'd never do any morally right stuff.... What is so wrong with Buffy being his motivation? If the end result is this hero that sacrificed himself to save the world then I say its fabulous that Buffy was his motivation. People constantly need to be motivated to do things, especially if they are starting way at the bottom and have a long way to make it up to where they need to be. An alcoholic for example, their motivation to finally kick the habit and get sober could be their significant other or their kids... Does needing that motivational support and drive and deep want of this important person in their life to be proud of them make their 20th year of sobriety any less valid? No. Its a pretty fair comparison of Spike's situation I think. Just because he initially started helping because he cared for Buffy and didn't want her thinking badly of him, that doesn't and shouldn't invalidate all the good he's done or will continue to do in the future.

He doesn't understand the ramifications of his 'quest' and when he comes back he IS a different being.

We're told that the soul is the conscience, the thing that separates us from the evil of the Vampire BUT without it we're completely different people - hence not being held accountable for our actions.

There seems to be all these different perceptions of what exactly the difference is between Angel/Angelus, Pre-Soul Spike and Post-Soul Spike, one being that in both cases, the before and after versions of these guys are completely different beings right? And in that vein, i saw a post that argued that souled Spike doesn't deserve credit for the demon seeking out a soul. I think all these theories can get pretty complicated and confusing, but the way i see it is... Okay, once Spikes soul was returned to his body it didn't cause his demon to just magically vacate the premises. Both, soul and demon are cohabitating inside Spike, right? Does that make sense? Cause i mean, the demon still has to be in there because the demon is what craves blood and causes him to be immortal and hurt by things that vampires can be hurt by etc. So before the soul, Spike showed more signs of humanity than most other vamps and I think that humanity started creeping in there bit by bit through attachments he made with people and it started to desensitize the demon to the point where it felt remorse for things like the attempted rape. So he got his soul, but the demon still lives there too therefor souled Spike does deserve credit for wanting the soul. I see both entities as merging and influencing eachother, its kinda how we get all the attitude and snark of Spike but also the noble man that was so selfless as to scarfice himself for the world. .... I hope all that made sense... I'm not sure really of how to apply this to Angel because clearly with Angel the demon that is Angelus still has to be living in there somewhere too, but maybe the soul is SO afraid of how viscious the demon is that its found a way to keep it (mostly) dormant?

I don't know.

One last thing... to those who argue that since acquiring their souls Angel has done much more to earn it than Spike... well DUH! That's not a fair comparison to make, Angel's had his soul for over a hundred years (and most of that time failed to do didly squat with that soul anyway) Spike has had it for what, just 5 now? And he'd started doing relative good before the soul. Give Spike 100 years with the soul and he could easily way outshine Angel I'd be willing to waiger.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

I still don't understand why so many people write off Spike going to get his soul as "selfish." So what if he did it because of Buffy? Why is that selfish? He did it because of Buffy, but IMO NOT in the selfish, "Ooh I just want this to impress her" way. I see it as him going on that quest in order to ensure that there would be a soul inside him that could anchor the demon and work as a guarantee that the demon wouldn't lose control and inadvertently hurt her again. Thats why he went and got the soul, because even without a soul he felt such intense remorse over the attempted rape. So yeah he did it for her, but I think thats actually pretty selfless. Many people also love to go on and on about how any good Spike ever did wasn't because he actually wanted to do good or help, it was only for Buffy and that if he wasn't obsessed with "getting" Buffy that he'd never do any morally right stuff.... What is so wrong with Buffy being his motivation? If the end result is this hero that sacrificed himself to save the world then I say its fabulous that Buffy was his motivation. People constantly need to be motivated to do things, especially if they are starting way at the bottom and have a long way to make it up to where they need to be. An alcoholic for example, their motivation to finally kick the habit and get sober could be their significant other or their kids... Does needing that motivational support and drive and deep want of this important person in their life to be proud of them make their 20th year of sobriety any less valid? No. Its a pretty fair comparison of Spike's situation I think. Just because he initially started helping because he cared for Buffy and didn't want her thinking badly of him, that doesn't and shouldn't invalidate all the good he's done or will continue to do in the future.



There seems to be all these different perceptions of what exactly the difference is between Angel/Angelus, Pre-Soul Spike and Post-Soul Spike, one being that in both cases, the before and after versions of these guys are completely different beings right? And in that vein, i saw a post that argued that souled Spike doesn't deserve credit for the demon seeking out a soul. I think all these theories can get pretty complicated and confusing, but the way i see it is... Okay, once Spikes soul was returned to his body it didn't cause his demon to just magically vacate the premises. Both, soul and demon are cohabitating inside Spike, right? Does that make sense? Cause i mean, the demon still has to be in there because the demon is what craves blood and causes him to be immortal and hurt by things that vampires can be hurt by etc. So before the soul, Spike showed more signs of humanity than most other vamps and I think that humanity started creeping in there bit by bit through attachments he made with people and it started to desensitize the demon to the point where it felt remorse for things like the attempted rape. So he got his soul, but the demon still lives there too therefor souled Spike does deserve credit for wanting the soul. I see both entities as merging and influencing eachother, its kinda how we get all the attitude and snark of Spike but also the noble man that was so selfless as to scarfice himself for the world. .... I hope all that made sense... I'm not sure really of how to apply this to Angel because clearly with Angel the demon that is Angelus still has to be living in there somewhere too, but maybe the soul is SO afraid of how viscious the demon is that its found a way to keep it (mostly) dormant?

I don't know.

One last thing... to those who argue that since acquiring their souls Angel has done much more to earn it than Spike... well DUH! That's not a fair comparison to make, Angel's had his soul for over a hundred years (and most of that time failed to do didly squat with that soul anyway) Spike has had it for what, just 5 now? And he'd started doing relative good before the soul. Give Spike 100 years with the soul and he could easily way outshine Angel I'd be willing to waiger.

*oogles* I think you make a really good point, I don't find Spike to be selfish at all in the getting of his soul. Selfish would mean doing it all for himself, but he did it for Buffy, as he told her. How's doing something for someone else equals to selfish is beyond me. And Airam, I think you've pretty much stolen everything I could've said : popcorn:

I think that'd be really interesting if we saw Spike in 100 years and what he'd done then. Oh, the possibilities.

 

[Kana]

I totally agree with Airam that Spike wasn't necessarily selfish by doing good deeds for Buffy. He is generally totally devoted to whomever he is in love with. He was willing to destroy the world for Dru and he got a soul for Buffy. I only argued that his deeds were not necessarily for morality's sake. So what? I don't even judge soulless vampires by human standards anyway.

BotD did make an interesting point about it not being a scoreboard. It ends up becoming a rediculous myriad of hypotheticals when we continue to theorize what would have happened if Spike was cursed 100 years ago if whether he's going to do better than Angel in 100 years time. Their journey's both have their own inherent worth and the compare them would undermine them both. Like I said, I love Angel's speeches on being a champion and good deeds. It's not just about big wins or going out in a blaze of glory, it's about the willingness to give of yourself. It doesn't matter if you have super powers or not, it's about seeing a vision of a better world and contributing to that vision anyway you can. I don't see Buffy battling with evil uber vamps as more than Anne giving of her time to help her community. Spike going out in a blaze of glory was great, but so was Tara's understated support of Buffy in Dead Things.

Just how I see it.

 

[Perny]

I don't believe Spike was selfish... OK he likes fun, and mostly only cares about himself... wait. That is selfish, and I still favor him! WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?

WHY must he have those cheekbones, and sexy tousled curly hair ??? ARGH


EDIT
Yeah Airam... It's hard being sarcastic on here... But he does care... About people he love.

 

[bloody pet]

I think it would have to be spike. and im not just saying that cuz hes my fave,or becase he has great body,baby bule eyes,cheeck bones that could cut rock......oh yeah! spike won his soul he fought for it cuz he wanted to be a better man for buffy. Angel was crused for all the worng he did it was a punishment for him. Spike went though alot to get his and I think he deserives it.

 

[BuffyElevated]

While we have definitely seen more of Angel "fighting the good fight" and making atonement for all his wrongs, I'd have to say I think Spike earned his soul the most. After all, he went after the soul himself; no one cursed him with it to punish him for something. I love them both, but I am going with Spike here. 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So here is something I've been wondering about for a bit. .
Here we go...
:thought😀id Angel deserve his soul more than Spike? Angelus had done a lot of naughty-bad-shame-on-you stuff, and really had the whole "I'm bad to the bone" image going on. when he got his sole, he got whimpy. He wasn't tough anymore, and ended up saving a lot of people. He made a lot of good deeds, and killed a lot of vamps.

Did Spike earn his soul more than Angel?
Spike also has a lot of corpses in the trunk. He even killed a couple of slayers, he did. Then Spike saved the world. Not because of the goodness in it, but because he saw a world of food. Spike later rocked the boat with Buffy, and then crossed a line.
Went to Africa, on his own will, and went through some really nasty things to get his soul back. Cos SHE deserved it. Spike got a Tweek like, and kinda weird. Suddenly the bleached vampo wasn't so tough anymore. But in the end he saved the world, and went to L.A where the crime never stops.


So who deserved his soul more?

The baddie, who went good, and fought evil to save the world and become human?
Or the baddie, who went good cos the women he loved deserved it?

I think it's as simple as: Angel was cursed with a soul. Spike sought it out and fought for it with the intention of being a better man. Period 🙂

 

[fly on the wall]

I think it's as simple as: Angel was cursed with a soul. Spike sought it out and fought for it with the intention of being a better man. Period 🙂

But we didn't really give Angelus time to decide if he wanted a soul or not, right?

Let's look at pre-Buffy and pre-soul Angelus. He was romping around with his vampire gang, having a grand old time. As was Spike. Neither of them were particularly keen to have a soul.

Then, bam, Angelus is cursed with a soul, becomes Angel. Broods for awhile about everything bad he's done. Decides to fight for a greater good, partly after seeing Buffy, a young girl, have that exact same duty forced upon her. So he becomes a better person...cleans himself up, stops feeding on rats, starts helping people.

Then he loses his soul, again. He's still obsessed with Buffy (a lot like--hey!--Spike was, in earlier seasons). But, half a season without a soul, he gets it back and promptly receives a sword through the chest to accompany it.

Spike sought out a soul because he was in love with a person who would never love him--or, at least, never admit it--if he didn't. (And yeah, I'm sure there was some post-attempted-rape guilt in there too, etc etc etc...but bottom line is, it was about Buffy.) Angel was cursed with his, yes. But I guess my point is, I don't really see how this comparison is at all fair. Spike had four seasons in Buffy's company, two of which he was neutered and couldn't kill her if he wanted to, before he sought his soul. Angelus had half a season on-screen and soulless in Buffy's company, and during that time, he was mostly consumed with revenge...a lot like--again, hey!--Spike was before he realized he loved Buffy. Had Angelus been given those four seasons, who knows what might have happened.

So, the comparison isn't fair, to sum that up. 😛

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

But we didn't really give Angelus time to decide if he wanted a soul or not, right?

Let's look at pre-Buffy and pre-soul Angelus. He was romping around with his vampire gang, having a grand old time. As was Spike. Neither of them were particularly keen to have a soul.

Then, bam, Angelus is cursed with a soul, becomes Angel. Broods for awhile about everything bad he's done. Decides to fight for a greater good, partly after seeing Buffy, a young girl, have that exact same duty forced upon her. So he becomes a better person...cleans himself up, stops feeding on rats, starts helping people.

Then he loses his soul, again. He's still obsessed with Buffy (a lot like--hey!--Spike was, in earlier seasons). But, half a season without a soul, he gets it back and promptly receives a sword through the chest to accompany it.

Spike sought out a soul because he was in love with a person who would never love him--or, at least, never admit it--if he didn't. (And yeah, I'm sure there was some post-attempted-rape guilt in there too, etc etc etc...but bottom line is, it was about Buffy.) Angel was cursed with his, yes. But I guess my point is, I don't really see how this comparison is at all fair. Spike had four seasons in Buffy's company, two of which he was neutered and couldn't kill her if he wanted to, before he sought his soul. Angelus had half a season on-screen and soulless in Buffy's company, and during that time, he was mostly consumed with revenge...a lot like--again, hey!--Spike was before he realized he loved Buffy. Had Angelus been given those four seasons, who knows what might have happened.

So, the comparison isn't fair, to sum that up. 😛

Well, I agree, I didn't make the thread 🙂

I just can't see Angelus ever having a desire for a soul for any reason...why would he? He was having gay old time before he was cursed. I always saw Angelus as, I don't know - more inherently evil then Spike ever was. As Spike says to him, "Drusilla made me, but you, you made me a monster".

Good points, though.

 

[fly on the wall]

^ Heh, that whole post wasn't directed at you or anything.

While I agree that Angelus didn't want a soul, I have two explanations for that.

1) He had just been CURSED with a soul, against his will. Spike developed as a character, grew into wanting a soul, while Angelus was cursed with one - and, in fact, had never been truly happy with his soul (or else he would have lost it). I think this alone made him abhor the very mention of a soul from that point onward.
2) I don't think anyone can say that S2-, 3-, 4-, and maybe as far as S5-Spike wanted a soul, either. He had five full seasons to decide he wanted one. Angelus didn't. Before his original cursing, he had no motivation as Spike had (Buffy) to want one.

The thing is, I can totally see Angelus, had he not been turned back into Angel or killed, deciding to go for a soul. It would have been a slow process, expanding over seasons (as Spike's was), but I can see his hate-obsession with Buffy turning into a love-obsession (as Spike's had), and I can see a very similar arc playing out for Angelus. I think part of Angelus already loved Buffy. "To kill this girl...you have to love her." And I think, once the revenge aspect got played out, and especially if something like Spike's chip had been implemented into his character, he would have eventually sought his soul back.

 

[4.O.cious Miss]

RE:

Well, I think that if the question were who wanted it more- My answer would certainly be Spike, hands down. However, I don't think it would be a fair question to ask who deserved it more. They were both heros, and they both did some damage in their pre-soul days. But based off of what they did in the past, and what they've done since their souls were reinstated? I can't justify basing a judgement off of that. I mean, that's like setting the two down and starting a tally..."Okay, you've saved the world this many times, and you've saved the world this many times."
I think they both did their fair share of repenting, and fighting for the sake of good. They both gave their lives to save the world, and that makes them pretty deserving in my book.

 

[Buhbi]

Technically, Spike was the only one to earn his soul. He went after it, he fought and suffered for it, and he earned it. Angel just finally killed the wrong girl to get his. Spike managed to handle the pain and shame of the realization of what he had done much more quickly because he had someone (Buffy, of course) to love, encourage, and believe in him.

Couldnt agree more, Angel never sought out to regain his soul back, he was given it as a punishment. He didn't earn it. Spike went through a series of trials of torture to gain his soul back for Buffy.
And even without a soul Spike became a hero, fought for the good. When Angel looses his soul, it turns into "the end of the world." There is no doubt in my mind that Spike earnt his soul more than Angel 😛

 

[LizzieRainbow]

I agree with Buhbi and White Avenger.

Spike fought more for his soul, angel didnt even want his soul back but spike went through tests etc to get his back because he wanted it and as well as fighting to get it back he had to endure the pain of the memories of what he had done to people. Angel only had to deal with the memories not the physical fighting that spike had