Who Loved Buffy More?

[Jersh]

Spike and Buffy were into each other, even though they hated one another and wanted to keep a distance.
That didn't stop them.
Spike stalked Buffy more than Angel did.
Spike went and got a soul for her.
Spike died just to please her.
Buffy changed the kind of person Spike was, for the better.
Buffy basically was all that Spike had to live for, he had nothing else.
I think Angel and Buffy together are just an average romance.

 

[Gideon]

Spike and Buffy were into each other, even though they hated one another and wanted to keep a distance.
That didn't stop them.
Spike stalked Buffy more than Angel did.
Spike went and got a soul for her.
Spike died just to please her.
Buffy changed the kind of person Spike was, for the better.
Buffy basically was all that Spike had to live for, he had nothing else.
I think Angel and Buffy together are just an average romance.

"Average"?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Perny]

^ So you disagree? Care to enlighten us why? Why is Bangel more than average? Is it because of the whole "Ultimate happiness" thing?
Because then I have to remind you, it's only Angel's thing, not Buffy's. No one ever said, and nothing ever indicated it was her ultimate happiness moment...Just Angel's.

 

[white avenger]

It's really hard to compare Angel's feelings for Buffy with those of Spike, because they were so different. Angel, as Liam and as Angelus, never really felt romantic love for anyone (Granted, this is an assumption in the case of Liam, but that is the impression that I got from the few flashbacks that we saw). To Liam, love implied lust, and the satisfaction of that urge. The same is true with Angelus, probably well mixed with sadism. Actually being in love with someone was a totally new experience, and I feel quite sure that he had little, if any, idea of how to properly handle the emotion.

Spike, however, both as human and vampire, had loved greatly, if not successfully. He no doubt had the poet's view of love, which included the devotion to and protection of his Lady Fair, regardless of whether or not she returned his feelings. This is quite well illustrated in his love and devotion to Drusilla, who he cherished and protected for over a century, regardless of her affairs with Angelus and a chaos demon that we know of, and quite possibly others as well. Because of his love and devotion to Buffy, he willingly underwent pain and torture on more than one occasion, the excommunication of his own vampire society when he chose to fight alongside the Slayer as well as the distrust of Buffy's friends, the very people who should have appreciated and trusted him.

Both men loved Buffy, each in his own way, but they were two distinctly DIFFERENT ways. That makes an "either or" decision hard to justify.

 

[Kean]

I don't know if it is possible to quantify someones love for another but I will always go with Angel on this particular question. The simple fact of the matter here is that we all have our allegiances and nothing said in this thread is going to change how we think one way or another. I haven't read through the rest of the thread but I firmly believe that Angel loved Buffy in the truest,deepest and most honest way.

People have remarked on Spike getting a soul to be worthy of Buffy and I won't contest that but what I will say is this, years before, Angel did someything incredibly similar. When Whistler found Angel in that alley he was a shell. A soul inhabited his body but he wasn't making much use of it. There isn't much difference bewteen that Angel and chipped Spike. However, it was Buffy that inspired Angel to be a man. To be a Champion. He gave her a reason to actually live, rather than exist. It was because of her he fought back. She gave his life a purpose. If he hadn't seen her outside Hemrey that day there is a fairly large chance he would still be in that alley...wasting away. Angel fought for Buffy, he fought to be worthy of her. That has to be acknowledged.

He found true happiness with her. I know people really don't like this being brought up but it is a simple fact. The depth of love required to feel such joy is immeasurable. You can scoff at it or push it aside but think of it this way, have you ever been trully happy in your life? even just for a moment? The rarity of this occassion is indescribable, even moreso when the horrors that Angel housed in his heart are considered. The fact that he loved her so much that the joy she brought him out-shone the pain...it's unheard of.

In the wake of season two, when everything had been revealed and Angel returned from centuries of torture in Hell it was Buffy's name that he remembered. He was little more than an animal but he knew her, he still loved her. A "average" relationship would have crumbled when faced with what Buffy and Angel had to face and yet somehow in season three, they seem to be even more in love with each other. Buffy sent him to Hell, it would have been so easy to blame her, to hate her. But he didn't. He loved her more and hated himself for hurting her. That is an extradinarily slefless love. When the First haunted him, goaded him to kill Buffy and find peace. He refused, instead, even in is broken frame of mind he fought back and was willing to take his own life than risk hers. As the season went on and he realised the risk he presented to Buffy wasn't going away...he left. He removed himself from the only love he had ever known in order to protect her. Selfless.

IWRY displays the same selfless love. He had it all and he gave it all back to save her. He didn't think twice. That's incredible.

During the huge events of her life that he could be there for he was. At her mother's graveside, at that place in the middle and at the end. They essentially told each other that they are waiting...together...for each other. That was 4 years after they broke up.

Nothing on this planet will convince me that the love Angel and Buffy share is anything less than extradinary.

 

[Gideon]

^ So you disagree?

I do. Respectfully, of course. 🙂

Care to enlighten us why?

Sure.

Why is Bangel more than average? Is it because of the whole "Ultimate happiness" thing?
Because then I have to remind you, it's only Angel's thing, not Buffy's. No one ever said, and nothing ever indicated it was her ultimate happiness moment...Just Angel's.

No, actually.

As per Joss's directive, Buffy "feels more for Angel" as of season 8.

As per Buffy's own words in "Selfless", she loved Angel more than she will ever love anything in her life.

As per her own actions, she locks hips with Angel the second he waltzes back into town, Spike be damned.

Spuffy had great chemistry and some truly touching moments, and I'll be objective enough to concede that he obviously means a lot to her, but as to whom she loves most?

All signs clearly point to Angel.

 

[Perny]

^Those are all good points, but I sooo disagree in that it clearly points at Angel. Any Whedonist knows NOTHING is ever perfectly clear with Joss. He can change is his mind a thousand times, and still make it make sense.

 

[Gideon]

^Those are all good points, but I sooo disagree in that it clearly points at Angel. Any Whedonist knows NOTHING is ever perfectly clear with Joss. He can change is his mind a thousand times, and still make it make sense.

It's not so much what he said, Perny, as to what is set in stone. If Joss was just providing commentary on their relationship, then perhaps it could be taken with a grain of salt. But he gave Georges Jeanty specific instructions as to the Buffy/Angel/Spike fantasy scene; he wanted Buffy deliberately turned closer to Angel because "she feels more for him," and the decision is reflected in the comic.

Spike himself doesn't believe Buffy's one profession of love for him. And she doesn't bother denying it or urging him to believe it. She makes it very clear throughout seasons 5 and 6 that she doesn't love him, that she can't love him.

Her words to Angel are even more telling: "he's in my heart." She cares for him greatly; loves him in a certain respect. But is she in love with him?

No.

All the signs. Every single one. All of them point to Angel. Hell, Angel even exploited Spike's insecurity on the issue during their fight in "Destiny."

 

[Perny]

It's not so much what he said, Perny, as to what is set in stone

Nothing is set in stone...EVER. Not even if Joss says so himself.

Spike himself doesn't believe Buffy's one profession of love for him. And she doesn't bother denying it or urging him to believe it. She makes it very clear throughout seasons 5 and 6 that she doesn't love him, that she can't love him.

Spike just said she didn't love him. Knowing Spike this was the time that would defy him as a hero, and Spike knew that if he went all sappy "ILY2" on Buffy, she wouldn't have left.
Just because Buffy keeps telling Spike she doesn't love him, doesn't mean she is telling the truth. Spike was always everything Buffy was supposed to be against. But still slowly, the things Spike did to show how devoted he was to Buffy DID reach her heart.
Love isn't easy, and it's not always something that can make sense. Spike even knew that, but it still was love.

Her words to Angel are even more telling: "he's in my heart." She cares for him greatly; loves him in a certain respect. But is she in love with him?

No.

This has nothing to do with whom Buffy loves. I think we all need to remember that. And the fact goes the same for Angel. Is Buffy still in love with Angel? ...No. She always refer to their relationship in past sense. OK so she loved him..we all know that. He was her first real love, and that is something that will NEVER go away. But she moved on.

All the signs. Every single one. All of them point to Angel. Hell, Angel even exploited Spike's insecurity on the issue during their fight in "Destiny."

Spike had every right to be insecure. It's ANGEL! It will always be a big deal between them, and Angel has always exploited Spike. As Angelus, and as Angel.
And there's not one sign that states that Angel and Buffy is more real than Spike and Buffy. It's all relative.
Yes Spike went to get his soul for a girl. Not to get in bed with her again, but to give her what she deserves. He knew it didn't mean they automatically would be lovers or anything. He just attempted rape. Things take time. But Buffy believed in Spike, and as Joss said on the commentary in Chosen "Love him, when you say you love him."
Buffy loved Spike, but I'm not saying it was a dandy love.

 

[five x five]

It's kind of a close call, but I may have to say Angel. Angel only left because he knew with his curse that he and Buffy could never really be together. The first thing Spike did when he had his body back was have sex with Harmony. And then he could have left to meet up with Buffy, but chose not to. I know this was so they could keep him on Angel, but the excuse they gave him was kind of flimsy.

Thanks. I kept seeing Spike and wondered if I was alone. I agree with you. (It wouldn't let me give you Karma because apparently we agree too often!). I think that yeah, Spike loved her with and without a soul, but so did Angel. I just don't think you all remember it because of how cruel Angelus was. Whn Angel turned into Angelus, he was still always thinking about Buffy. Remember how Willow said that even though he's evil, she's still the only thing he thinks about? Angelus hated her because Angel loved her so deeply and perhaps, he did, too.

 

[Gideon]

Nothing is set in stone...EVER. Not even if Joss says so himself.

Then there's no point in discussing it, is there?

This thread asks a question: "Who loved Buffy more?" And another question popped up: "Who did Buffy love more?" To answer both of these questions, the audience has to objectively assess the dialogue and the events to come to a proper conclusion.

If nothing is set in stone, then nothing Joss says on the subject, including his pro-Spuffy comments, can be taken at face value.

Spike just said she didn't love him.

Exactly! That's the point. She told him that she loved him; Spike, who is a master of insight, denied it. He knew she really didn't.

And she didn't offer words of denial, she didn't try to comfort him, to tell him that it was true.

She just left.

This has nothing to do with whom Buffy loves.

The question popped up in this thread, and I tendered my own answer.

I think we all need to remember that. And the fact goes the same for Angel. Is Buffy still in love with Angel? ...No. She always refer to their relationship in past sense. OK so she loved him..we all know that. He was her first real love, and that is something that will NEVER go away. But she moved on.

It really doesn't, though. The dialogue, the action, the creator all indicate that Buffy still is in love with Angel to an extent far greater than her feelings for Spike.

Spike had every right to be insecure. It's ANGEL! It will always be a big deal between them, and Angel has always exploited Spike. As Angelus, and as Angel.
And there's not one sign that states that Angel and Buffy is more real than Spike and Buffy. It's all relative.
Yes Spike went to get his soul for a girl. Not to get in bed with her again, but to give her what she deserves. He knew it didn't mean they automatically would be lovers or anything. He just attempted rape. Things take time. But Buffy believed in Spike, and as Joss said on the commentary in Chosen "Love him, when you say you love him."
Buffy loved Spike, but I'm not saying it was a dandy love

The entire episode ("Destiny") was frought with emotional manipulation on both sides. The entire point of it was that, in the end, Spike was more secure than Angel, who was conflicted with self-doubt. That's why it marked the first time that Spike ever defeated Angel. Even at the height of the conflict between Spike and Angel, Angel was absolutely sure that Buffy loved him more than Spike.

Spike, on the other hand, wasn't as sure.

 

[Washburne]

She always refer to their relationship in past sense.

Granted it's not difficult to make me confused but huh? How has that anything to do with who she loves most? How else would you talk about a past relationship if not in past sense? After season 3 they were never a couple but that doesn't mean that their (or Buffy's in this case) feelings have changed.

 

[Misty]

I vote Spike, Angel didn't even seem to like her that much, like I said in other threads, he seemed like he was just with Buffy because he didn't want to hurt her. And Angel would never do what ever he could to Buffy love him back like Spike did. But Angel would defenately do anything he could do to make Cordelia love him back.

 

[Kean]

I vote Spike, Angel didn't even seem to like her that much, like I said in other threads, he seemed like he was just with Buffy because he didn't want to hurt her. And Angel would never do what ever he could to Buffy love him back like Spike did. But Angel would defenately do anything he could do to make Cordelia love him back.

Interesting perspective, I've never heard anything like this before. I have to disagree though, I think Angel made it more than clear that he loved Buffy, both in his actions and him declaring his love for her several times.

If you have to make someone love you it isn't really love at all. You can't earn someone falling in love with you...it either happens or it doesn't.

 

[Gideon]

And I would contend that Angel didn't have to try to make Buffy love him like Spike did.

 

[Misty]

Interesting perspective, I've never heard anything like this before. I have to disagree though, I think Angel made it more than clear that he loved Buffy, both in his actions and him declaring his love for her several times.

If you have to make someone love you it isn't love at all. You can't earn someone falling in love with you...it either happens or it doesn't.

Oh,well I kind of disagree, you can earn love by doing alot for someone, because you are showing that person how much you love them.

 

[laianna]

Oh,well I kind of disagree, you can earn love by doing alot for someone, because you are showing that person how much you love them.

That just shows that you love them a lot. Or are obsessed with them.

They might just think you're a creepy stalker. =/


It's hard for me to answer the "who loved Buffy more?" question, because it seemed to be completely different kinds of love. As Joss said, Buffy and Angel are soulmates. They had love at first sight. Spike and Buffy however, had chemistry from the beginning and their feelings progressed in many different directions. I think with Angel, the whole "you'll never be friends" (ironically, said by Spike) thing really applies. With Spike, the relationship was more complicated, expanding from friendship to enemies to lovers but never entirely reaching each point.

Buffy valued them for different reasons and personally I'm not even sure if I'm a Spuffy or Bangel shipper because I can't figure this out myself.

But that's my insight on the subject. 😉

 

[ILLYRIAN]

If Mr Gordo was part of the question, Angel and Spike would be walking out the door.

 

[wiccianslayer]

---------- Post added at 06:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 AM ----------

Buffy after he came back in Destiny, instead he did Harmony 😛 you didn't see Angel acting like that

3 words. Darla, Cordelia, Nina.

 

[Washburne]

3 words. Darla, Cordelia, Nina.

Just to get things straight. Have Spike given up on Buffy? What's holding him back? He doesn't even let her know he's alive. Angel loves Buffy but knows they can't be together at the moment. Should that mean he should live the rest of his life (or at least Buffy's life since his could be quite long) alone hoping they'll find a solution so they can be together? Neither Buffy or Angel wanted to move on but had no choice. Personally I don't see Spike being with Harmony as the same thing as Angel moving on. Doubt Spuffy lovers will agree though. 😉