Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?

[Skanky Vamp]

The fact is, four seasons of Angel told us that the prophecy was his.

It would be the same as saying in season 9, "uh-oh, we made a mistake, we found this chick in.... Zimbabwe, she is the real slayer, Buffy, it seems, was just a potential."

 

[Tranquillity]

Originally Posted by Flannen
The fact is, four seasons of Angel told us that the prophecy was his.

And that is true (although, as the show points out, the "Vampire with a soul" was never named by name) but the question of this thread is not who owns it, but who deserves it - if you take the idea that the thing is a reward (which I don't). Spike has a pretty good case for saying he deserves it. He really does - he stopped an apocalypse, he's got free will, he chose the soul yadda yadda yadda. Hell, even Angel thinks that he's got a pretty good case because by the time that season five is ending, Angel believes that Spike is Shan Shu guy - that's why he signs the thing away - because he thinks that the Circle of the Black Thorne has the wrong guy. Angel confirms this in After the Fall when he is surprised that W&H still consider him Mr. ShanShu (because the paperwork voiding the prophecy was never filed) plus the Senior partners give Wesley a vision of the future and it is of Angel bringing about the apocalypse. So there is no question, in my mind, that the Shanshu is indeed Angel's but that is not a good thing for him.

 

[white avenger]

As I said before, I firmly believe that Angel SHOULD be the recipient of the Shanshu. He wants it (he thinks) and he has worked to be worthy of it. Let him have the dern thing. If Spike really wants his mortality restored, he'll go out and win it for himself, not sit around brooding and waiting for the Powers That Be or the Senior Partners to decide that he's met their requirements for it.

But Angel should keep in mind exactly what he's giving up. Enhanced senses, superhuman strength and speed, accelerated healing abilities, and, of course, immortality. All of that is quite obvious. What hasn't been considered, however, is something that just might be the most important consideration of all: As a human, Angel would be, as he has already discovered in "I Will Remember You," an actual liability to Buffy and her fight (Is there ANYBODY here who actually believes that Buffy should, would, or even could, walk away from the fight? She's the Slayer, and she will be the Slayer until she draws her last breath) That's why I say that the Shanshu might actually wind up being a greater curse for Angel than his soul ever was.

And don't even TRY to run that "He'll be human, but he'll retain his vampiric powers," gambit here. The Shanshu makes the recipient HUMAN, plain, simple, human. It doesn't create a male version of the Slayer.

 

[Kean]

And don't even TRY to run that "He'll be human, but he'll retain his vampiric powers," gambit here. The Shanshu makes the recipient HUMAN, plain, simple, human. It doesn't create a male version of the Slayer.

If Angel ever gets Shanshu I firmly believe it will be at the end of the story. I highly doubt we will see him in a situation where Angel is human and his story is still being told. However, on the off chance that that does happen, there are two things that I think throw out what happened in IWRY and the reasons why he gave up his humanity:

1) Throughout ATF he fought the hordes of Hell, and he fought wonderfully. He also fought human.

2) If Angel (miraculously) becomes human he will do so in magicless world that will have a dwindling number of demons to fight. The threat to his life will be significantly less than what he faced before the events of #39.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"white avenger agrees: Yeah, a lot of people seem to forget that the Shanshu is an award for helping the Senior Partners"
I do not believe that is accurate; I may be mistaken but wasnt the whole Angel series about the not knowing which side he would fight on? The Senior Partners were trying to corrupt him so he would be their 'champion' in fulfilling the prophesy, while the PTB were trying to guide him so he would be theirs. I do not recall the series ever stating it was a reward for helping the Senior Partners.

 

[EvilBuffy]

To be quite frank, I don't think either of them deserve it. To me, they both became good for selfish reasons. (Buffy) Yes, Angel already had a soul, but what did he do with it? Sat around and tried to convince Darla that he was still evil and saved a puppy then ate rats for a few decades. Then all of the sudden he sees Buffy and 'I have to help her!' Gee, wonder why.

As for Spike, well, I love Spike. But he gets the chip but as seen in some of season 4, still attempts to remain evil. (Such as aligning himself with Adam) All of the sudden in season 5 BOOM he starts falling for Buffy and what's that? Oh! He has to fight on the side of good for her. Have I heard this story before? Feels like deja vu.

I just think they've both done way too much damage in their pasts to have their slates wiped clean for less than a decade of fighting for good. They both have a lonnng way to go.

 

[Anya2012]

This really is a toughie and makes for a good discussion. Angel was given his soul to make him suffer for eternity while Spike got his for selfish reasons. He said it himself he got it for Buffy. Angel is expecting to get the prophecy handed to him on a silver platter while Spike never heard about the prophecy until season 5.

IMO Spike is more of a hero than Angel is. I've said this many times and will continue to say it. Spike is more deserving and I'm not a Spuffy saying this.

 

[Litheran]

See; I like both characters pretty much equally. My Irish heritage I share with Angel; while personality wise I'm more like Spike. Ultimately I couldn't say who i think is more deserving of it; but I believe Angel needs it more. Spike has said previously that he doesn't give a piss about atonement; he's simply doing the right thing because it's the right thing. Angel on the other hand is attempting to make up for the evil he's committed in the past.

I don't think Angel could continue if he didn't have that to hold onto. I think Spike accepts his past as a fact that he cannot change; and Angel rejects his and wants to tip the balance; more good done than evil. Either way it would be long after the current human cast has passed on before either one "earned" redemption IMO.

 

[zobothehobo]

When this topic was first posted, I typed up this big long response but my computer restarted itself so I lost it. I apologize in advance for this not being nearly as thought out or awesome... but rather, short and in a rather annoyed tone. I'd also like to apologize if it doesn't make much sense. I have a fever of 101 right now and I'm not really all there mentally ATM.

When I first saw this question, being a die hard Spike fan, my first response was to scream "SPIKE!!!! SPIKE SPIKE SPIKE!" But when I think about it, I'm not too sure. On the one hand, the prophecy sort of implies a grey area of "which side will he be on" (which is like the whole big point). I'm not sure I want any sort of doubt for Spike about which side will he be on in any apocalypse. He is my Spike, I route for him... so I want him to be just good. No questions asked. Also, while I know he wants it... I don't want him to want it. I don't want him to give up his vampire powers. So I'm torn.

That being said, if we're talking about "deserving" like the title of the thread says, it's even more confusing and murky. On the one hand, Angel has fought longer. On the other hand, I feel Spike has fought harder.

Also, I'm not too sure I can say who "deserves" it because I'm not sure it's really a reward. I know Angel looked at it as a reward and his redemption for all the crimes he committed... but he also said pretty much the entire way through season 5 "I can never achieve redemption" (which by the way is what I believe. Neither one can ever full achieve redemption from their crimes as soulless beings). Also apparently in After The Fall (which I have not read) it is stated that the vampire in question would have to bring on the apocalypse too. So I really don't want it to be Spike.

Conclusion: Spike's worked harder, Angel's worked longer... but is it about deserving or is it more about who's got the bigger fate? I think Angel's got the bigger fate. He's the one who's been in the center of things and he's always been bigger and more grandiose. It makes sense the Shanshu is about him. But that doesn't have really much to do about deserving. Because while I feel Spike deserves an award more, I'm not sure the Shanshu is a reward.

 

[zobothehobo]

Oh but I do have one thing to add. Regardless of whether it's Spike or Angel... will someone please explain to me how there would have been no point to Ats whatsoever if it was Spike? I mean sure when it was first found out about Spike wasn't even a contestant... but in season 5 they make it pretty clear it could be either. It was this whole big thing. Two souled vampire champions. I just don't see how the prophecy being about Spike would make Ats pointless. It might negate some of the things assumed or said by various characters... but not make it pointless.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I actually don't see how anyone can truly believe Spike deserves it.

He got his soul for selfish reasons and has spent (by my calculations) 2 and a half seasons fighting evil.
Season 4 he was still bad, 5 he was still bad for half a season , only really helped the second half, he was there in all of Season 6 (but didn't help out in the apocalypse fight against Willow), he as all wimpy for the first half of Season 7, and saying he helped out in the second half is a stretch as it was only really the last episode, but we'll say he was helpful in the second half.
Then he spent half a season of Angel not helping and then the second half helping.

That vs Angel's 7 seasons of fighting evil ( thats excluding second half of Season 2, and that time in season 3 of Angel, when he was dark without actually being evil)

If anyone actually thinks Spike deserves it at this point is kidding themselves, maybe down the line, but where they are now Angel wins by a mile!

 

[WakingNightmare]

The discussion looked interesting so I looked up Shanshu on BuffyWikia and from what I've read it doesn't seem like a reward. Unless BuffyWikia is lying to me it says that the Shanshu will be the reward to the souled vampire for fighting alongside of the bad guys. So Angel (or possibly Spike, but I think it's for Angel) losses his soul or gets possessed or something like that and fights on the side of evil during the apocalypse. He is given some shiny new humanity with a soul included and therefore rewarded for doing evil.

Seems like a curse, not a reward.

 

[zobothehobo]

I actually don't see how anyone can truly believe Spike deserves it.

He got his soul for selfish reasons and has spent (by my calculations) 2 and a half seasons fighting evil.
Season 4 he was still bad, 5 he was still bad for half a season , only really helped the second half, he was there in all of Season 6 (but didn't help out in the apocalypse fight against Willow), he as all wimpy for the first half of Season 7, and saying he helped out in the second half is a stretch as it was only really the last episode, but we'll say he was helpful in the second half.
Then he spent half a season of Angel not helping and then the second half helping.

That vs Angel's 7 seasons of fighting evil ( thats excluding second half of Season 2, and that time in season 3 of Angel, when he was dark without actually being evil)

If anyone actually thinks Spike deserves it at this point is kidding themselves, maybe down the line, but where they are now Angel wins by a mile!

Ok.... so this isn't about the topic... it's about my bolded line... but seriously, I'm too sick to not be annoyed by this.

Fine, if we want to say Spike won his soul for selfish reasons... fine. I personally believe if we're going to say that, we have to say everything anyone ever does for love is for selfish reasons but fine. Let's just role with this. Spike went and willingly fought for his soul for selfish reasons. Angel didn't fight for his soul AT ALL. In fact, it was cursed on him. On top of that, he killed Jenny to make sure he wouldn't get it back. So how does that make Spike's soul less than Angel's? Please someone tell me. I just hate it when Angel fans throw that around "Spike got his soul for selfish reasons," well Angel didn't even want his.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But it's completely different, you can't compare Angelus and Spike in Season 6, Spike had been effectively muzzled for 3 seasons, that would change him physiologically, we don't know what Angelus would have done with a chip in his head for 3 years.

He was basically conditioned to know right from wrong by the chip, but would season 2/3/4 Spike and run out to get soul, No and thats the Spike you should compare to Angelus. It took 3 years of conditioning to get Spike to that point.

Don't get me wrong Angel got his soul and did nothing with it till he was introduced to Buffy, so he's just as selfish.

But in actually doing good, Spike is nowhere close to Angel.



On the shanshu, Yeah I don't think the full details of the prophecy have come out, Wesley showed him a vision that said he'd fight on the bad side to get Shanshu'd, but the series made it clear that it wasn't know if he'd fight for the side of good or bad. For all we know it's both, maybe just playing a major part in the apocalypse on either side would do it.

Plus Wesley worked for Wolfram and Hart, thats like the definition of bias.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

zobothehobo agrees: You just said Angel was just as selfish with his soul. So why did you use Spike's "selfishness" as a reason he doesn't deserve the Shanshu?

I wouldn't count him out based on selfishness, but I don't think him getting a soul is a reason he deserves it, he got it because he tried to rape Buffy and she rejected him, said she could never love him, Spike took that to mean she couldn't love him because he has no soul so went and got it.
Not really a reason he should be made mortal again

Well to me it's not a reason he deserves it, but it's the one you always here when this question comes up.

In terms of actual good they both have done, Spike hasn't done enough to compete with Angel.

Like just say Angel decided to take a nap for 5 years and Spike kept going, I think then would be the time to say Angel could have a rival for the Shanshu.

 

[StarSlayer]

But in actually doing good, Spike is nowhere close to Angel.

I think since both are champions (Angel has admitted more than once Spike is a champion), they are both deserving.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think since both are champions (Angel has admitted more than once Spike is a champion), they are both deserving.

True but I dont see how Spike saving the world once compares to all that Angel has done.

 

[StarSlayer]

I wouldn't count him out based on selfishness, but I don't think him getting a soul is a reason he deserves it, he got it because he tried to rape Buffy and she rejected him, said she could never love him, Spike took that to mean she couldn't love him because he has no soul so went and got it.
Not really a reason he should be made mortal again

Well to me it's not a reason he deserves it, but it's the one you always here when this question comes up.

It wasn't just the bathroom scene! Buffy said she couldn't love Spike (never be his girl) because he didn't have a soul in Dead Things. She said he was an evil disgusting "thing" in Smashed. Later in Entropy, Spike mentioned this to Anya, that Buffy sees him as an evil soulless thing. The bathroom scene showed Spike that despite the good he did, the truth was he still didn't have a soul and there still was a monster inside him. So, he wanted to get his soul to become the man Buffy deserved since she said many times she couldn't allow herself to love a soulless thing.

With that said, I don't think Spike getting his soul automatically makes him deserve the Shanshu. It was a step in the right direction, but it wasn't until he saved the world and closed the Hellmouth in "Chosen" that I feel he became more in the running.

---------- Post added at 02:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 AM ----------

EDIT: Forgot to add, but Spike helped Buffy save the world in s2. So, that one counts as his. 😉

 

[Tranquillity]

but where they are now Angel wins by a mile!

And where they are now precisely is that Angel has just killed Giles and was prepared to sacrifice the world for "Twilight" after initiating an apocalypse, while Spike is chasing down some rogue demons that managed to escape being sucked out of the Earth's dimension when the seed was broken. My, my, is that Spike making up some ground?

 

[Flannen]

Oh but I do have one thing to add. Regardless of whether it's Spike or Angel... will someone please explain to me how there would have been no point to Ats whatsoever if it was Spike? I mean sure when it was first found out about Spike wasn't even a contestant... but in season 5 they make it pretty clear it could be either. It was this whole big thing. Two souled vampire champions. I just don't see how the prophecy being about Spike would make Ats pointless. It might negate some of the things assumed or said by various characters... but not make it pointless.

Because the show was about Angel. I guess it depends on how you feel about the Shanshu. Although some people seem to think I'm 'forgetting' what the Shanshu is, no, I just see it as something different to you. From the end of season 1, when Angel found out about the prophecy, I see him as working towards to achieving it. To then suddenly go 'oh here you go other vampire who just turned up for one season lets make it all about you'. For me it makes Angel's redemption story null and void and the whole show along with it. What would be the point in even starting a series for Angel alone and then making the 'end' about someone else? Not saying you have to feel the same about it but that is why I am firmly in Angel's corner with this one and ain't budging.