Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?

[The Unspoken]

Because the show was about Angel. I guess it depends on how you feel about the Shanshu. Although some people seem to think I'm 'forgetting' what the Shanshu is, no, I just see it as something different to you. From the end of season 1, when Angel found out about the prophecy, I see him as working towards to achieving it. To then suddenly go 'oh here you go other vampire who just turned up for one season lets make it all about you'. For me it makes Angel's redemption story null and void and the whole show along with it. What would be the point in even starting a series for Angel alone and then making the 'end' about someone else? Not saying you have to feel the same about it but that is why I am firmly in Angel's corner with this one and ain't budging.

But the show only follows Angel over the course of a couple of years, whereas the Shanshu prophecy has existed for possibly thousands of years. You as a viewer might feel cheated, but looking at it from within the 'verse, it makes sense to at least consider Spike as a candidate.

 

[Flannen]

But the show only follows Angel over the course of a couple of years, whereas the Shanshu prophecy has existed for possibly thousands of years. You as a viewer might feel cheated, but looking at it from within the 'verse, it makes sense to at least consider Spike as a candidate.

Had the Shanshu prophecy appeared in BtVS then I might agree with you. But as it appears in a show that is all about Angel then I don't choose to. I can see the argument that it has existed for thousands of years but then, given the way I watch TV, I then think 'no it doesn't actually exist at all' so I can think whatever I choose to of it. The line between thinking about the 'verse and recognising it as a TV show are too distinct for me and thus my feeling cheated still wins out.

 

[Tranquillity]

Because the show was about Angel. I guess it depends on how you feel about the Shanshu. Although some people seem to think I'm 'forgetting' what the Shanshu is, no, I just see it as something different to you. From the end of season 1, when Angel found out about the prophecy, I see him as working towards to achieving it. To then suddenly go 'oh here you go other vampire who just turned up for one season lets make it all about you'. For me it makes Angel's redemption story null and void and the whole show along with it. What would be the point in even starting a series for Angel alone and then making the 'end' about someone else? Not saying you have to feel the same about it but that is why I am firmly in Angel's corner with this one and ain't budging.

But if you watch season five it was never about "giving Spike the Shanshu" - it was about making Angel doubt himself. That was what the whole journey of season five was about - Angel had lost all hope with the absence of Connor and Cordelia, he was not feeling very champion-like because of the deal with Wolfram and Hart, lying to his friends and having their memories tampered with. He is lost in Alien territory and doesn't know what to do... Hope is nowhere to be found. Then in comes Spike - someone who he has always been superior to, so that should bolster his self-confidence, but it doesn't because Spike's on the good guys side , he died saving the world, he's a champion. Spike is doing everything that Angel still wishes he was doing but can't because he's stuck at W&H. All Spike wants is recognition as an equal But Angel is reluctant to give it because "demons never change" and all the associated baggage that comes with the Spike/Angel relationship - But as hard as Angel resists acknowledging Spike, Spike's very presence undermines Angel's confidence even more - BUT - this is not Spike's doing or Spike's attempt to get the Shanshu - this is all Angel's issue - Watch Soul Purpose - Angel's dreams clearly demonstrate what is going on in Angel's head. Spike's presence in season five was never about taking the Shanshu away from Angel, it was always about developing Angel's story. I love that By the end of season five Angel is taking comfort from Spike and what he's been able to achieve - Spike gives Angel hope.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But the show only follows Angel over the course of a couple of years, whereas the Shanshu prophecy has existed for possibly thousands of years. You as a viewer might feel cheated, but looking at it from within the 'verse, it makes sense to at least consider Spike as a candidate.

But on the same token, going from my previous example... after Buffy died in The Gift since Faith was in jail the watchers council formed a new slayer line with a girl from Zimbabwe, keeping it all a secret. While Buffy was in the ground rotting, Zimbabwe slayer was honing her skills, staking vampire wildebeests and what have you; learning her craft, etc.

Zimbabwe slayer actually worked with the monks that made Dawn and she was the one that said send Dawn to Buffy since Buffy was no longer the slayer she would not draw attention. Zimbabwe slayer was the one that pointed out the soulgiver (or whatever you want to call the demon's) cave to Spike. Zimbabwe slayer saved the world. Alot.

But you know nothing of this because while it happened in the verse, it never was on the show. Would you feel cheated?

We only know what the show tells us; and for years it told us that the prophesy was Angel's.

 

[Flannen]

But if you watch season five it was never about "giving Spike the Shanshu" - it was about making Angel doubt himself. That was what the whole journey of season five was about - Angel had lost all hope with the absence of Connor and Cordelia, he was not feeling very champion-like because of the deal with Wolfram and Hart, lying to his friends and having their memories tampered with. He is lost in Alien territory and doesn't know what to do... Hope is nowhere to be found. Then in comes Spike - someone who he has always been superior to, so that should bolster his self-confidence, but it doesn't because Spike's on the good guys side , he died saving the world, he's a champion. Spike is doing everything that Angel still wishes he was doing but can't because he's stuck at W&H. All Spike wants is recognition as an equal But Angel is reluctant to give it because "demons never change" and all the associated baggage that comes with the Spike/Angel relationship - But as hard as Angel resists acknowledging Spike, Spike's very presence undermines Angel's confidence even more - BUT - this is not Spike's doing or Spike's attempt to get the Shanshu - this is all Angel's issue - Watch Soul Purpose - Angel's dreams clearly demonstrate what is going on in Angel's head. Spike's presence in season five was never about taking the Shanshu away from Angel, it was always about developing Angel's story. I love that By the end of season five Angel is taking comfort from Spike and what he's been able to achieve - Spike gives Angel hope.

That's all good and well but I don't really understand how it relates to what I've said. I haven't said season five was about giving Spike the Shanshu. When I referred to Spike only showing up for one season I didn't mean that that season became all about Spike. It was referring to the 'end' as the very bitter end of the whole series whenever that shall be and nothing at all to do with season five. Which is where I think your post above comes from...? I would be beyond pissed if Spike, after only turning up for one season would change the four seasons that came before it in terms of the plot etc.

For the most part I'm not arguing the merit's of the characters or what they do or what makes them deserve/not deserve it. I'm speaking generally about the show as a whole as a television programme and how that affects my opinion that to even have Spike as an option spits in the face of the series.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

You don't believe Spike can even be considered as the one. But I don't believe that the only reason you have for Angel deserving the Shanshu is because it's his series. Sorry, I don't think that's a good reason. Spike IS a candidate for a fact. He had a major part in the apocalypse, he is a champion, and he is a vampire with a soul who fights the good fight. HE IS qualified. If it was Spike's show, would you have said that Spike deserves it? It just has nothing to do with deserving. The question was who deserves it more, not who it's going to be.

And up until now, I didn't see true reasons for why Angel should be the one. Because it's his show? Because he's done it longer? Because he's done it first? Those aren't really qualified as good reasons. It only reflects your love for Angel the character.

And I don't understand something. You say that if it turns out to be Spike you quit and AtS would be pointless. But the series is NOT all about the Shanshu thing. Did you watch the series ONLY because you thought Angel is the one? That's why you watched it? Then yes, your watching would be pointless.

The fact is, Spike has done what Angel has done, and even more. Anything good you can say that Angel did, so did Spike (see above).

---------- Post added at 06:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------

Both vampires ultimately want the Shanshu to be with Buffy, but Spike wants it because he thinks Buffy won't be with him unless he's human and Angel, who already knows that she'd be with him even as a vampire, needs it so he'll let himself be with her.

I so don't agree with the last part. Buffy knows she can't be with Angel as long as he's a vampire. And Spike, well she did imply to him that they might be together after the final fight. She wouldn't be with neither of them completely as long as they're vampires. This is true for both.l

 

[Flannen]

You don't believe Spike can even be considered as the one. But I don't believe that the only reason you have for Angel deserving the Shanshu is because it's his series. Sorry, I don't think that's a good reason. Spike IS a candidate for a fact. He had a major part in the apocalypse, he is a champion, and he is a vampire with a soul who fights the good fight. HE IS qualified. If it was Spike's show, would you have said that Spike deserves it? It just has nothing to do with deserving. The question was who deserves it more, not who it's going to be.

And up until now, I didn't see true reasons for why Angel should be the one. Because it's his show? Because he's done it longer? Because he's done it first? Those aren't really qualified as good reasons. It only reflects your love for Angel the character.

If it was Spike's show, then yes, I would have said the prophecy is clearly about him. I also would have accepted him as a candidate if the Shanshu had been brought up on BtVS and NOT Ats, but this is not the case. Would all you Spike lovers have been happy if it was Spike's show and then Angel trotted in and all of a sudden he was the one who really deserved it?

It may not have anything to do with deserving as far as YOU are concerned but it does for me and that's that. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean that it isn't true for someone else. And they are good reasons as far as I'm concerned. It's just a matter of opinion which is becoming increasingly forgotten, I feel.

And to be perfectly honest it's much more of a reflection for my hatred of Spike as opposed to my love for Angel. And really if we're going down that path, then isn't everything you say a reflection of your love for Spike? Does that make me think your arguments are any less valid, though? No.

And I don't understand something. You say that if it turns out to be Spike you quit and AtS would be pointless. But the series is NOT all about the Shanshu thing. Did you watch the series ONLY because you thought Angel is the one? That's why you watched it? Then yes, your watching would be pointless.

The fact is, Spike has done what Angel has done, and even more. Anything good you can say that Angel did, so did Spike (see above)

No it's not all about the Shanshu, but for me personally, it is a pretty big deal and I see it as a huge driving force for Angel. It's a huge part of the show's 'mythology' if you were. It's not a small thing they can dismiss over a continuinty error. And it's kinda up to me to decide what makes my watching pointless...

 

[Chosen Enemy]

If it was Spike's show, then yes, I would have said the prophecy is clearly about him. I also would have accepted him as a candidate if the Shanshu had been brought up on BtVS and NOT Ats, but this is not the case. Would all you Spike lovers have been happy if it was Spike's show and then Angel trotted in and all of a sudden he was the one who really deserved it?

It may not have anything to do with deserving as far as YOU are concerned but it does for me and that's that. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean that it isn't true for someone else. And they are good reasons as far as I'm concerned. It's just a matter of opinion which is becoming increasingly forgotten, I feel.

And to be perfectly honest it's much more of a reflection for my hatred of Spike as opposed to my love for Angel. And really if we're going down that path, then isn't everything you say a reflection of your love for Spike? Does that make me think your arguments are any less valid, though? No.



No it's not all about the Shanshu, but for me personally, it is a pretty big deal and I see it as a huge driving force for Angel. It's a huge part of the show's 'mythology' if you were. It's not a small thing they can dismiss over a continuinty error. And it's kinda up to me to decide what makes my watching pointless...

That's my point. Owning a series doesn't make him automatically deserving. And no, if it was Spike's show, I wouldn't automatically say it's him for sure. I see the whole picture, who's deserving for the right reasons. If I thought Angel deserved it more, I would have said he deserves it more. You ignore all points of deserving and don't see that Spike can actually be a candidate. I'm not saying it's not Angel. I'm not saying it's Spike. I'm saying they're both an option, which you don't. You don't see Spike as candidate in the first place, while he is for a fact. Not my opinion, a fact. The prophecy said all the things that Spike has already done and is. They're both follow the prophecy's rules, you just can't say that only Angel is. In season 5 it's clear that Spike could be the one. Again, it's not me saying that, it's the script.
And if it was Spike's show and Angel would have gotten it, I would have said okay. BUT only if he really deserves it, not in any case! It has nothing to do with whose the show is. That's why I don't think it's a valid reason. Just because it's his show he deserves it more? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Flannen]

Well it does for me, and some others it seems. So maybe it's more a case of it doesn't make sense to YOU as opposed to not making sense at all?

So what if I don't think Spike's an option? I'm not wrong for that. Just because he fits the bill doesn't necessarily mean I HAVE to say he deserves it. I hate the guy, I'm gonna be ignorant and biased about it and say he doesn't deserve it, which I'm perfectly entitled to do. I'm aware that Spike has done things that mean others think he is a candidate but I don't. He doesn't deserve it over Angel. But I don't really have the time to get into that at the moment. (See the reasons other people have for why it's Angel for now).

But this is a discussion going round in circles. You don't understand my reasoning, that's fine but it's my reasoning and my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think if it were Darla, that would be acceptable because she was at least an Angel character. It just felt cheap that a character could be thrown into the mix at the last moment and have a monumental consequence such as that happen.

 

[Flannen]

I think if it were Darla, that would be acceptable because she was at least an Angel character. It just felt cheap that a character could be thrown into the mix at the last moment and have a monumental consequence such as that happen.

That's the crux of it for me too. It would have been much more open if it had been mentioned in BtVS at some point but it wasn't, and like you say, it cheapens it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Well it does for me, and some others it seems. So maybe it's more a case of it doesn't make sense to YOU as opposed to not making sense at all?

So what if I don't think Spike's an option? I'm not wrong for that. Just because he fits the bill doesn't necessarily mean I HAVE to say he deserves it. I hate the guy, I'm gonna be ignorant and biased about it and say he doesn't deserve it, which I'm perfectly entitled to do. I'm aware that Spike has done things that mean others think he is a candidate but I don't. He doesn't deserve it over Angel. But I don't really have the time to get into that at the moment. (See the reasons other people have for why it's Angel for now).

But this is a discussion going round in circles. You don't understand my reasoning, that's fine but it's my reasoning and my story and I'm sticking to it.

You can say you think it's Angel. But it's not a fact. However it is a fact that it can be Spike. I'm not a hard core Angel fan, I love Spike more. But I do think Angel is valid as much as Spike. There is an opinion and there is a fact. And you can say Angel deserves it more, and I can disagree - and that's an opinion. But from the script it's obvious that it COULD be Spike. Fact, not opinion.

 

[Flannen]

You can say you think it's Angel. But it's not a fact. However it is a fact that it can be Spike. I'm not a hard core Angel fan, I love Spike more. But I do think Angel is valid as much as Spike. There is an opinion and there is a fact. And you can say Angel deserves it more, and I can disagree - and that's an opinion. But from the script it's obvious that it COULD be Spike. Fact, not opinion.

And? My main issue with it has always been that Spike SHOULD NOT be a candidate. Would I be so angry about it if he wasn't one? What would I have to be angry about? It's more a case of: he doesn't deserve it and shouldn't be a candidate. Make of that what you will but I'm not outright saying he isn't one am I? It may come across as that at times but again, why would I be so outraged by the possibility of Spike being granted Shanshu over Angel if I was ignorant to the fact there was chance?

I've read back over my own posts and even when I've said Spike is not an option for me it doesn't mean I don't recognise he fits the bill. I can see why you'd think that but for the most part I've been talking about my own personal opinion as opposed to what the shows says...

 

[Chosen Enemy]

And? My main issue with it has always been that Spike SHOULD NOT be a candidate. Would I be so angry about it if he wasn't one? What would I have to be angry about? It's more a case of: he doesn't deserve it and shouldn't be a candidate. Make of that what you will but I'm not outright saying he isn't one am I? It may come across as that at times but again, why would I be so outraged by the possibility of Spike being granted Shanshu over Angel if I was ignorant to the fact there was chance?

I've read back over my own posts and even when I've said Spike is not an option for me it doesn't mean I don't recognise he fits the bill. I can see why you'd think that but for the most part I've been talking about my own personal opinion as opposed to what the shows says...

But it's not up to you, it's the writers who decide, they wrote the story, and the story has decided that Spike will do all those stuff which would make him deserving. Just because you don't like Spike you think he shouldn't get a particular storyline? I can say that about Angel. I can say I would have wanted the writers to kill him off by Buffy in the end of season 2 and so he wouldn't save the world and all that which would make him undeserving. The writers decided that Spike would be right for the Shanshu as much as Angel, save the world, regain his soul. Why shouldn't he be a candidate? Because you don't like it? I don't understand that part. The writers decided something, and we don't always like everything the writers decide, but that doesn't make something not true.

 

[Flannen]

I'm not saying it isn't true!! I'm done with this discussion because what I'm saying is not being understood as clearly as I'd like and I don't know how to make it any clearer. My reasons as to why Spike shouldn't be a candidate, as far as I'm concerned, have been made abundantly clear and is about much more than 'I don't like it'. I haven't said at any point that he isn't one or doesn't tick all the boxes for being one. My argument has always been that he doesn't deserve it over Angel in terms of character and in terms of all that the show built up before, shouldn't be considered a possible recipient of it.

There's too much miscommunication and I don't have the time or the energy to go back over everything I've said. We're on a different page, lets just leave it at that.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I'm not saying it isn't true!! I'm done with this discussion because what I'm saying is not being understood as clearly as I'd like and I don't know how to make it any clearer. My reasons as to why Spike shouldn't be a candidate, as far as I'm concerned, have been made abundantly clear and is about much more than 'I don't like it'. I haven't said at any point that he isn't one or doesn't tick all the boxes for being one. My argument has always been that he doesn't deserve it over Angel in terms of character and in terms of all that the show built up before, shouldn't be considered a possible recipient of it.

There's too much miscommunication and I don't have the time or the energy to go back over everything I've said. We're on a different page, lets just leave it at that.

That's fair. I still don't agree with what I think I got from you, for many reasons, but I'll shake your hand and close this subject (not literally).

 

[The Unspoken]

But on the same token, going from my previous example... after Buffy died in The Gift since Faith was in jail the watchers council formed a new slayer line with a girl from Zimbabwe, keeping it all a secret. While Buffy was in the ground rotting, Zimbabwe slayer was honing her skills, staking vampire wildebeests and what have you; learning her craft, etc.

Zimbabwe slayer actually worked with the monks that made Dawn and she was the one that said send Dawn to Buffy since Buffy was no longer the slayer she would not draw attention. Zimbabwe slayer was the one that pointed out the soulgiver (or whatever you want to call the demon's) cave to Spike. Zimbabwe slayer saved the world. Alot.

But you know nothing of this because while it happened in the verse, it never was on the show. Would you feel cheated?

We only know what the show tells us; and for years it told us that the prophesy was Angel's.

Uhm, I'm sorry, but I don't understand the two first paragraphs AT ALL. This Zimbabwe slayer was activated after Buffy died in The Gift, yet somehow sent Dawn to Buffy before that? I get that you're attempting an analogy, but seriously, what the fudge?!

Anyway, my point was that (the events in) the show - or any show for that mater - should not be looked at from a meta-level (in response to the 'it's his show and his prophecy' argument). It's like saying Oz left Willow because Seth Green wanted to pursue a movie career. The writers did the right thing in season 5 when they brought up the possibility that Spike could also be a candidate. If they hadn't, it would be a plot hole, simple as that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The fact is, Spike has done what Angel has done, and even more. Anything good you can say that Angel did, so did Spike (see above).

Please tell me what Spike has done more, actual examples? Like I said Spike "Helped" in Season 2, helped in Season 5, Saved the world in Season 7, and fought along with Angel in Season 5.
But Angel has been helping to save the world since Season 1 of Buffy.
So Spike is no where close to being 'What Angel has done, Spike has done'

This just shows total blind alliance to Spike, and this isn't about opinion, your actually just wrong, as Spike hasn't done as much as Angel, and thats just fact!

And where they are now precisely is that Angel has just killed Giles and was prepared to sacrifice the world for "Twilight" after initiating an apocalypse, while Spike is chasing down some rogue demons that managed to escape being sucked out of the Earth's dimension when the seed was broken. My, my, is that Spike making up some ground?

Yes it is.

Like I said I don't completely disqualify Spike in the context of the show, but I don't think he's anywhere close to deserving it yet.

(in my personal opinion Spike will never be due the shanshu because it's Angel show, but if Spike was actually on par with what Angel had done,then I could at least see how people could argue the point)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Uhm, I'm sorry, but I don't understand the two first paragraphs AT ALL. ....
Anyway, my point was that (the events in) the show - or any show for that mater - should not be looked at from a meta-level (in response to the 'it's his show and his prophecy' argument)

The point is, you said it (the shanshu) happened in the verse and not in the show.. there could be TONS of events that happened in the verse and not the show... maybe the prophesy was talking about a vampire with a soul from centuries ago long before Angel and Spike.. maybe the apocalypse already happened and no one updated the ancient text. You go by what you are shown on the screen and what you are told.. and for years you are told the shanshu is talking about Angel.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Okay, this is going to be long, but here are some reasons why Spike deserves the Shashu"¦.

- Spike wanted his soul, he wasn't cursed. And no, not just for Buffy. Because he knew it was the right thing to do. He wanted to become a better man. Angel was cursed, and let himself lose his soul TWICE. Then he accepted to be Twilight and kill many people and Slayers.
- Spike gave up his life to save the world. Angel, as opposed to him, tried to destroy the world.
- Spike tried much harder to fight the good fight WITHOUT knowing about the Shanshu.
- Spike has become a good man BEFORE he regained his soul, he really tried, even though it was hard and painful to him, even though everybody hated him. He helped even though he didn't have to, even when Buffy was gone.
- Spike went through hell to get his soul, so he really really REALLY wanted to be a good man (no, it wasn't just because of Buffy! Read above).
- Spike wants it more, otherwise he wouldn't have won the fight with Angel. For the first time Spike beat him. And Angel admitted that.
- Angel had chances to live as a human being. He CHOOSE to give that up.
- Angel murdered people-humans even when he had a soul (i.e. Wolfram&Hart gang , (tried) killing Wesley, for example).
- Spike is the most humany vampire ever, he's as close as a vampire could get to being a good vampire, he's not a true evil. Even when he was "evil" he really cared for the ones he loved (Dru), he had human feelings that weren't brought to him with a soul.
- When he did bad things, he asked Buffy to kill him, he was very aware of the bad things he's done and wanted to keep the world safe by finishing himself off. When Angel got his soul, he didn't try killing himself or even redeem himself. Not in the beginning. In the beginning he was wandered around the world and hate rats. He didn't move himself to help and be a good man until he saw Buffy. He didn't have a true desire to redeem himself and fight the good fight, he just brood.
- Spike did good things even before the soul. And he didn't wait for anything to come across him (like Whistler to Angel), to "magically" make him get off of his butt and help to save the world.
- Even if Spike loses his soul, he wouldn't be bad. He'd still be a good vampire, he'd still love Buffy, he'd still try to make things better. Which means he's a true fighter, a true lover, a true friend, a true hero, a true good man.
- Spike would do ANYTHNG for the ones he loves, even die for them, even a thousand times. Even if he'd be tortured (like by Glory).
- Angel(s) is the one who made Spike (William) a monster. William as a vampire wasn't evil at first. Angel(s) made him do all those stuff, he is the true evil.
- Angel was the worst (evilest) vampire in the history, and he still is without the soul. And no one can change that past (not to mention that he killed many when he did have a soul). Yes, Spike has killed also, but besides the fact that he learned that from Angel, he turned himself good and choose the right path "“ the good side, he CHOOSE to be good. He didn't have to, no one made him, he wanted that with all of his heart. (no, not just for Buffy, and it's proven when he kept fighting along with the scoobies even after Buffy's death).
- Spike had to fight much harder to get into the good crown, to be trusted, even after he regained his soul. For Angel, it was enough just having a soul. But Spike had to work harder to be trusted without a soul. And he did a great job at that. And when he got his soul, in season 7, he was the only one Buffy trusted, because she saw his journey, she saw he is real and worthy of her trust.
- Speaking of journey, Spike's was much harder and turned out much better (in my opinion). Because he didn't have a soul and had to work it out somehow.
- Spike, even without a soul has conscience, he knows when he's done something wrong and he tries to fix it. Vampire can't have conscience because they don't have a soul, they don't care, they don't sorry. But he does. So he is a good man, even before he turned good (for example, when he snaps on Dru, he's sorry, and when he slept with Anya he tells Buffy he's sorry).
- He's succeeded climbing into Buffy's heart after being her nemesis. When he wants something that much, he gets it. He knows that hard work is hard work, and that doesn't stop him. Buffy told him to get lost a lot of times, but he stayed, because he loved her. She was mean to him, yet he kept loving her, kept caring for her, and didn't get mad and killed her.
- In the end, even though Buffy finally said she loved him, he decided to stay and die for her and for the world. He choose life of his love instead of his own. He didn't think about himself.
- Which proves that he's really changed. He's changed so much, and didn't just wait for this to happen, he worked for it. And more importantly, he WANTED to change. He CHOOSE to change.
-Angel might have done it for longer and more (saving the world) but he's been good for longer time! If Spike was good before, he was the one to do those.

I could probably continue, but I'll free you from that. I know there are things you might disagree with, but these are my reasons and how I see it. Just so you see that there are reasons, and it's not just out of my love for Spike.

And I still think that the argument about it being Angel's show is not a reason for him to be deserving. It's not deserving, it's just the world outside the show - it's outside the show, not in the show, so I really can't count that as a deserving reason.