Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?

[Chosen Enemy]

Saying he was a nice Vampire before he met Angelus is ridiculous.

For one thing it wasn't meeting Angeusl that made him a killer, it was Angelus telling him about the Slayer that turned him obsessive about the Slayer.

Spike used to torture victims with Railroad spikes, a completely different killing style to Angelus, Angelus was about the physological, Spike was a messy killer. Spike didn't learn to be vicious through Angel, he was vicious all by himself!

Spike said it himself: "Drusilla sired me. But you made me a monster". Which means he wasn't really mean before that. Angel turned him this way.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

When I say it doesn't matter, I don't mean in the personal sense, but in the script sense.

When I say its wrong I dont mean in the personal sense, I mean in the script sense. It's that kinda of fly by your seat writing that got Angel canceled and prevents Mr. Whedon from not having a successful television series since Buffy.

 

[Flannen]

Spike said it himself: "Drusilla sired me. But you made me a monster". Which means he wasn't really mean before that. Angel turned him this way.

And Spike couldn't possibly being trying to make as many excuses for himself and you are now?! I really don't think Spike's own comments about it are the most solid or trustworthy. In fact, they are the complete opposite and it's not quite so straight forward and meaning he wasn't a git before. (Not to mention they are completely open to interpretation and can mean whatever anyone wants them to mean!)

 

[Chosen Enemy]

And how exactly is it Angel/us' fault that Spike always had to prove himself to him? Spike chose to want to try and be as big and bad as Angelus, end of story. This is my hugest issue with Spike, every single thing he does is excused. He was a vampire. A vicious murderer and he positively revelled in that. And before anyone says it, yes I know Angel/us did too, completely aware of that but I'm so tired of seeing Spike portrayed as someone who was helplessly pushed along the path he end up on but Angel is just some beast who corrupted poor innocent William.

William was a sissy. I see it as a peer pressure. Why do people start smoking sometimes? Not because they're bad, but because they want to be included, be part of "that" world, be "cool". It doesn't mean they really want to, or that their bad people.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I have often cited peer pressure as a reason to commit murder. Why did you kill all those people- peer pressure.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

When I say its wrong I dont mean in the personal sense, I mean in the script sense. It's that kinda of fly by your seat writing that got Angel canceled and prevents Mr. Whedon from not having a successful television series since Buffy.

I disgree. Just because it messed up your mind and made you think something that was proven wrong, doesn't mean it's not right script wise.

 

[Flannen]

William was a sissy. I see it as a peer pressure. Why do people start smoking sometimes? Not because they're bad, but because they want to be included, be part of "that" world, be "cool". It doesn't mean they really want to, or that their bad people.

William was a sissy, yes. But Vampire!William was not. Do you really not give Spike/William even a single grain of responsibility for who he became? Because if you don't then you really can't come down on me for not accepting Spike as a candidate for the Shanshu. To claim that Spike becoming the vicious murderer that he did was the same as feeling pressured to smoke in order to fit in really doesn't stand up. William, like Liam, was not evil. But as soon as they were turned, they BOTH became soulless murdered who absolutely loved killing, torturing and maiming people. I'd argue they influenced each other in terms of competition and such but Spike was an active, willing participant in that. And he continued in that vein LONG after Angelus' became Angel and left the group.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Just because it messed up your mind and made you think something that was proven wrong, doesn't mean it's not right script wise.

I never said it was not right, I said it was wrong. Big difference.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I have often cited peer pressure as a reason to commit murder. Why did you kill all those people- peer pressure.

Vampires, go figure. it's not the same in real life. Spike was pressed to be evil, because he wasn't. And didn't want to be.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Spike was pressed to be evil

Thats why he seemed so stiff and starchy! At least it got the wrinkles out.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Scobro agrees: Spike also said that Angel was his sire! Spike must be really confused...

Hole in the script, clearly. We saw the truth in FFL.

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

Flannen agrees: Of course he did! It's absurd to think otherwise.

Again, Angel pushed him to be, he didn't really want that (at first!), he was still William, way before "William the Bloody". He became William the Bloody once Angel turned him to.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So hole in the script thing only works one way? Maybe not mentioning Angel by name was a hole in the script as there was never meant to be another vampire with a soul until Joss decided to please the fans and write for them.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

So hole in the script thing only works one way? Maybe not mentioning Angel by name was a hole in the script as there was never meant to be another vampire with a soul until Joss decided to please the fans and write for them.

BIG difference! Because Spike being sired, we actually saw on screen. And it wasn't by Angel. The another vampire with a soul - we never ever heard, seen, or knew for a fact that it was Angel. It's only guesswork. Not more.

If Spike were to get a soul and save the world and be a hero by say... season 4 of Buffy. Then would you be pleased?

 

[Flannen]

Hole in the script, clearly. We saw the truth in FFL.

That, or Spike was actually so (willingly) enamoured by Angelus that he looked up on him as his sire because he was SO PROUD of what he had become?

Again, Angel pushed him to be, he didn't really want that (at first!), he was still William, way before "William the Bloody". He became William the Bloody once Angel turned him to.

Evidence of this? Where do we EVER see William not revelling in what he'd become?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

This conversation feels like one of those squiggly pictures on the back of a cereal box where if you squint really hard you can see whatever you want.. oh look! there's a badger with a gun. I cant bounce back and forth anymore, with these ever-changing rules that apply to one argument and not the other.

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

Evidence of this? Where do we EVER see William not revelling in what he'd become?

Well, according to the previous post.. there was no evidence that the prophesy was about Angel because we never saw it.. so there is no evidence that Spike was 'good' before Angel because we never saw it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

That, or Spike was actually so (willingly) enamoured by Angelus that he looked up on him as his sire because he was SO PROUD of what he had become?



Evidence of this? Where do we EVER see William not revelling in what he'd become?

The line I said was from "Destiny" where he obviously hated Angel for making him what he was. He hated Angel throught the entire history of them both. So, no, he wasn't proud, he just wanted to prove himself. He needed a guide in the vampire world. He didn't choose to become a vampire. But he knew that he needed to be evil, because that's what was expected from him, from all vampires.

Watch "Destiny" again, all the answers are in there.

 

[brinkster130]

First of all kudos for putting this may reasons together for Spike. (am Im not being snarky, Im serious, this list is long)

Okay, this is going to be long, but here are some reasons why Spike deserves the Shashu"¦.

- Spike wanted his soul, he wasn't cursed. And no, not just for Buffy. Because he knew it was the right thing to do. He wanted to become a better man. Angel was cursed, and let himself lose his soul TWICE. Then he accepted to be Twilight and kill many people and Slayers.

I think both men got their souls in flawed ways. Also, are you referring to Angel losing his soul in S2 of BTVS as a choice? He didn't let himself lose it then, he didn't know that would happen. 😕

- Spike gave up his life to save the world. Angel, as opposed to him, tried to destroy the world.

Do you really believe that Spike never tired to destroy the world? He was with Dru for how long? And we know they put together the Judge which would ultimately destroy all good in the world. I don't think its fair to assume Spike never tired to destroy the world.

- Spike has become a good man BEFORE he regained his soul, he really tried, even though it was hard and painful to him, even though everybody hated him. He helped even though he didn't have to, even when Buffy was gone.

He had a chip in his head which completely altered him. He wasn't able to act on his impulses without being in excruciating pain. He was essentially a vampire being trained to refrain from evil - the chip was not something he wanted, he was stuck with it. By the time is was removed he was already conditioned not to kill.

- Spike went through hell to get his soul, so he really really REALLY wanted to be a good man (no, it wasn't just because of Buffy! Read above).

True, Spike decided to fight for his soul but I think Buffy was the main reason for that.

- Spike wants it more, otherwise he wouldn't have won the fight with Angel. For the first time Spike beat him. And Angel admitted that.

Angel also said it wasn't an award and that it was a burden. Angel knew that getting the Shanshu would bring on a whole new world of turmoil and guilt. Maybe that played into the fight.

- Angel had chances to live as a human being. He CHOOSE to give that up.

I think that this is a moot point. He gave it up because he was told Buffy would die if he didn't. Spike would have done the same thing. Do you honestly think either man would choose being Human over having Buffy alive?

- Spike is the most humany vampire ever, he's as close as a vampire could get to being a good vampire, he's not a true evil. Even when he was "evil" he really cared for the ones he loved (Dru), he had human feelings that weren't brought to him with a soul.

I agree with you here, he was rather attached to Dru in a way we didn't see with other vampires.

- When he did bad things, he asked Buffy to kill him, he was very aware of the bad things he's done and wanted to keep the world safe by finishing himself off. When Angel got his soul, he didn't try killing himself or even redeem himself. Not in the beginning. In the beginning he was wandered around the world and hate rats. He didn't move himself to help and be a good man until he saw Buffy. He didn't have a true desire to redeem himself and fight the good fight, he just brood.

Well if we are using that logic then Angel felt guilty over all the killing and torturing he had done for 100 years, Spike felt guilty for a week. Come on, Spike was lucky enough to have Buffy help him through it Angel wasn't; he did it ALONE! 🙄 Both Angel and Spike asked to be killed at one point or another and both acknowledged the monster in them.

- Spike did good things even before the soul. And he didn't wait for anything to come across him (like Whistler to Angel), to "magically" make him get off of his butt and help to save the world.

No, he had a chip surgically implanted in his brain that conditioned him not to harm good beings.

- Even if Spike loses his soul, he wouldn't be bad. He'd still be a good vampire, he'd still love Buffy, he'd still try to make things better. Which means he's a true fighter, a true lover, a true friend, a true hero, a true good man.

Again conditioning of the chip.

- Angel(s) is the one who made Spike (William) a monster. William as a vampire wasn't evil at first. Angel(s) made him do all those stuff, he is the true evil.

You seem to forget who made Angel. Darla! Darla made Angelus what he was. Neither man had a choice, the both acknowledged this (and to each other!) At one point they were both victims....

- Angel was the worst (evilest) vampire in the history, and he still is without the soul. And no one can change that past (not to mention that he killed many when he did have a soul). Yes, Spike has killed also, but besides the fact that he learned that from Angel, he turned himself good and choose the right path "“ the good side, he CHOOSE to be good. He didn't have to, no one made him, he wanted that with all of his heart. (no, not just for Buffy, and it's proven when he kept fighting along with the scoobies even after Buffy's death).

Yup Angelus was the worst vampire and Spike was number 2, which he wasn't very happy about. Again, the vampire line doesn't start with Angel...both men were turned and taught. (also both men continued to fight for good after Buffy died)

- In the end, even though Buffy finally said she loved him, he decided to stay and die for her and for the world. He choose life of his love instead of his own. He didn't think about himself.

Yup, and this is what made him a champion.

 

[Flannen]

The line I said was from "Destiny" where he obviously hated Angel for making him what he was. He hated Angel throught the entire history of them both. So, no, he wasn't proud, he just wanted to prove himself. He needed a guide in the vampire world. He didn't choose to become a vampire. But he knew that he needed to be evil, because that's what was expected from him, from all vampires.

Watch "Destiny" again, all the answers are in there.

I don't need to, I remember my interpretation the first time round. We have a completely different understanding of the character of Spike. You are happy to act as if Spike has never done anything wrong and to be honest its just increased my hatred of the character so I'm going to step out of this discussion now. We should go back to the agree to disagree thing because we have such contrasting opinions and interpretations that we're never going to get anywhere, we're just wasting each other's time! 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The line I said was from "Destiny" where he obviously hated Angel for making him what he was. He hated Angel throught the entire history of them both. So, no, he wasn't proud, he just wanted to prove himself. He needed a guide in the vampire world. He didn't choose to become a vampire. But he knew that he needed to be evil, because that's what was expected from him, from all vampires.

Watch "Destiny" again, all the answers are in there.

I think it could be argued he did want to be come a Vampire, he had just been stepped on socially and Dru pretty much showed him what was about to happen and when he was getting bitten, he was saying 'ow' (not sure how to actually spell that), he wasn't yelling for help, or saying stop, he was accepting it but complaining because it hurt.

He then went on to kill his mother twice. And if peer pressure is what made him evil, why did he keep going when Angel was out of the picture!

 

[WakingNightmare]

Do you really believe that Spike never tired to destroy the world? He was with Dru for how long? And we know they put together the Judge which would ultimately destroy all good in the world. I don't think its fair to assume Spike never tired to destroy the world.

In "Becoming" Spike says that he doesn't want Angelus to suck the world into hell because he likes it. With The Judge Spike wasn't looking to get rid of the world just the good people in it. I know that's not much better but I wanted to point out that Spike seems to be anti, let's destroy the world.