Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?

[Chosen Enemy]

I don't need to, I remember my interpretation the first time round. We have a completely different understanding of the character of Spike. You are happy to act as if Spike has never done anything wrong and to be honest its just increased my hatred of the character so I'm going to step out of this discussion now. We should go back to the agree to disagree thing because we have such contrasting opinions and interpretations that we're never going to get anywhere, we're just wasting each other's time! 🙂

I don't think Spike never done anything wrong. I really don't. I just think he deserves the Shanshu of a number of reasons. He did wrong things and redeemed himself better than Angel, which is why I think he's more deserving.

And you're right, we're going in circles, and that's a good thing to end it, because I need to go now, and if we didn't close it by agree to disagree, I would have problem to disagree, since I wouldn't be here 😀

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And if peer pressure is what made him evil, why did he keep going when Angel was out of the picture!

It's addiction! Thats why it was likened to smoking cigarettes; he got in the habit of killin' and couldnt go thru withdrawal. Sure, his fingers were stained red and he got a big blood belly but that damned Angel got him hooked and he couldnt kick the monkey.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

In "Becoming" Spike says that he doesn't want Angelus to suck the world into hell because he likes it. With The Judge Spike wasn't looking to get rid of the world just the good people in it. I know that's not much better but I wanted to point out that Spike seems to be anti, let's destroy the world.

Yeah he just didn't want to world to not exist, he just wanted to keep going, feeding off the human happy meals - what a guy.

 

[Wesley]

I've been trying to follow this argument, it's downright confusing. Chosen, you keep bringing up points then when people refute it you just say 'oh thats not right it's not the same'

William was a sissy. I see it as a peer pressure. Why do people start smoking sometimes? Not because they're bad, but because they want to be included, be part of "that" world, be "cool". It doesn't mean they really want to, or that their bad people.

Then when people call you in it,

it's not the same in real life.

So it's comparable to people in RL that start smoking, but it's not as soon as Sco and Flanniepants point out that's silly.

Just keeping track.

Also, the script is the script, the writers write it how it is as you say when you mention,

But it's not up to you, it's the writers who decide, they wrote the story, and the story has decided that Spike will do all those stuff which would make him deserving.

except when

Hole in the script, clearly. We saw the truth in FFL.

So just for the moment, its like peer pressure except it's not, and the writers are all powerful except when they're wrong. OK good talk.


Your reading of Spike as a person, the episode 'Destiny' and the entire of the Buffyverse is so tainted toward Spike love that you are making me not like Spike because of how much I hate your argument. Which I'm quite upset about because I love his character. So... please stop. You're making me cry.

 

[xaphania]

I don't have much to contribute to this discussion because a lot of the posts are making me all angry-face.

But everyone should remember that we each see the show through our own set of 'fandom eyewear'... which this post explains wonderfully.

 

[Tome]

When I was watching AtS, I really wanted him to get it at the end of the story. But then the show abruptly ended with 'Not Fade Away'. I still thought he deserved it after AtF... But what they've done to his character in BtVS S8 sure change things for me. I'm just hoping that we finally get some explanations on all of this crap he did. Hopefully we get back the Angel we knew from his own show/ATF. If it's the case then I still think he should get it. But if not, screw you Angel! Spike gets it.

 

[zobothehobo]

I just read through this whole argument and one thing in particular that popped out at me. It's not big but whatever...

Are some of you really trying to say that because Spike said in season 2 "You were my sire, man, you were my yoda" to Angel the Shanshu HAS to be about Angel because when it was first brought up Angel was the only vampire with a soul? 'Cause I for the life of me cannot understand that reasoning. The writers I believe have commented on Spike's line in season 2 and said he worshiped Angelus... he was his "sire" as in "Drusilla sired me, but you made me a monster." And regardless of that, I see absolutely no correlation between that and the Shanshu. How do they connect?


I think the argument "the show is called Angel and therefore the Shanshu is about Angel" is ridiculous. I don't even think there are words for the ridiculousness of that.

I think the argument "Angel was the only vampire with a soul when the prophecy is revealed to the viewer, therefore it must be about Angel" is ridiculous. Did you know, there wasn't even a vampire with a soul at all when the prophecy was written? And up until Angel becomes a champion (which I personally believe doesn't happen until he doesn't die in Amends), there isn't even a qualified party at all? So anyone who read the prophecy between when it was written and when Angel became a champion can be safe in their assumptions it's not about anyone? That's ridiculous. "That's the thing about prophecies, they never tell you the whole story." So I think it's pretty fair to say we don't know for sure who it is and BOTH vampires ARE indeed in the running.

That being said, I still think it's probably Angel. Not because I don't think Spike deserves an award, but because the more I think about it, the more I feel this isn't an award.

 

[Flannen]

I just read through this whole argument and one thing in particular that popped out at me. It's not big but whatever...

Are some of you really trying to say that because Spike said in season 2 "You were my sire, man, you were my yoda" to Angel the Shanshu HAS to be about Angel because when it was first brought up Angel was the only vampire with a soul? 'Cause I for the life of me cannot understand that reasoning. The writers I believe have commented on Spike's line in season 2 and said he worshiped Angelus... he was his "sire" as in "Drusilla sired me, but you made me a monster." And regardless of that, I see absolutely no correlation between that and the Shanshu. How do they connect?

Wasn't actually aware anyone was arguing there was a connection. It got brought up among other things but I don't recall it being a factor in where the Shanshu goes?

I think the argument "the show is called Angel and therefore the Shanshu is about Angel" is ridiculous. I don't even think there are words for the ridiculousness of that.

Well as you've referred to my opinion to be of such a ridiculous level, I'd kind of like some explanation before I start wondering how offended I should be! While it may seem as if that is the basis of my opinion, I think what's more 'ridiculous' is to suggest that that line alone is the foundation of my opinion when I think I've made it quite clear that it does, and why it does, go further than that. So can you elaborate a little cos at the moment I find it a little insulting...

 

[zobothehobo]

Wasn't actually aware anyone was arguing there was a connection. It got brought up among other things but I don't recall it being a factor in where the Shanshu goes?

from various posts not made by you it seemed some people were connecting them and calling Chosen Enemy hypocritical because she believed one was a hole in the writing (Spike's line) and the other was something left open to the viewer (the Shanshu). I don't see them as parallel. That first bit wasn't to you, it was to the people who suggested they had some level of being the same.

Well as you've referred to my opinion to be of such a ridiculous level, I'd kind of like some explanation before I start wondering how offended I should be! While it may seem as if that is the basis of my opinion, I think what's more 'ridiculous' is to suggest that that line alone is the foundation of my opinion when I think I've made it quite clear that it does, and why it does, go further than that. So can you elaborate a little cos at the moment I find it a little insulting...

I never said that was the whole point of your opinion. I never referred to you at all. I was simply stating that I see absolutely no validity in that argument at all. And it was made by others... not just you. Please don't feel attacked because I'm not trying to attack you.

As I said, I'm not sure there are words I could use to describe how ridiculous I think the statement "the show is called Angel, therefore the prophecy is about Angel" is. That argument requires absolutely no thought into the characters or the prophecy. In fact, that argument isn't even about the characters or prophecy... it's about Angel having a spin off. Ok... so Angel had a spin off... Spike was not in a position to get a spin off... so that means he's automatically disqualified regardless of the fact by the prophecy's definition he IS qualified? From reading your argument with Chosen Enemy I feel I'm safe to assume you know and recognize that both characters fit the criteria provided by the prophecy. Yet, you throw Spike out as an option without even looking at his character or the prophecy closer just because the prophecy was discovered on Angel's spin off show? That requires no thought and insight into the characters or the prophecy and is a superficial line of thought.

 

[white avenger]

I

That being said, I still think it's probably Angel. Not because I don't think Spike deserves an award, but because the more I think about it, the more I feel this isn't an award.

It would definitely fit in with Joss' twisted way of thinking if the Shanshu turns out to be exactly what it says it is: making its recipient mortal again. That could mean, and it's assumed that it does, becoming a normal human once more. But it could just as accurately mean that the vampire with the soul who receives the Shanshu remains a vampire, but is stripped of his vampiric powers and his immortality.

Either way, it might also serve to deprive Buffy and her allies with a powerful and crucial fighter at a critical moment, something similar to what Giles and Wood tried to do with Spike in Season 7. The only difference would be that, instead of killing him, the Shanshu would drastically reduce his effectiveness as a fighter.

 

[Flannen]

from various posts not made by you it seemed some people were connecting them and calling Chosen Enemy hypocritical because she believed one was a hole in the writing (Spike's line) and the other was something left open to the viewer (the Shanshu). I don't see them as parallel. That first bit wasn't to you, it was to the people who suggested they had some level of being the same.

Fair enough, I just thought there was an obvious link made and I didn't see it that's all.

I never said that was the whole point of your opinion. I never referred to you at all. I was simply stating that I see absolutely no validity in that argument at all. And it was made by others... not just you. Please don't feel attacked because I'm not trying to attack you.

As I said, I'm not sure there are words I could use to describe how ridiculous I think the statement "the show is called Angel, therefore the prophecy is about Angel" is. That argument requires absolutely no thought into the characters or the prophecy. In fact, that argument isn't even about the characters or prophecy... it's about Angel having a spin off. Ok... so Angel had a spin off... Spike was not in a position to get a spin off... so that means he's automatically disqualified regardless of the fact by the prophecy's definition he IS qualified? From reading your argument with Chosen Enemy I feel I'm safe to assume you know and recognize that both characters fit the criteria provided by the prophecy. Yet, you throw Spike out as an option without even looking at his character or the prophecy closer just because the prophecy was discovered on Angel's spin off show? That requires no thought and insight into the characters or the prophecy and is a superficial line of thought.

It's not so much that I feel attacked, it's just there are so many other ways of disagreeing with an opinion/post and I find a description such as 'no words to describe how ridiculous' isn't the nicest way to go about it sometimes. I don't feel like you're out to get me 😉

While I can see your what you're saying, for quite a bit of the thread I've made a point of saying that my whole feeling towards the Shanshu isn't really about the characters or the prophecy itself but the show as a whole and regardless of how it may seem to you, it did require some brain cells and some thought for me to think about it. Personally, I find the credibility of the show more problematic than the characters/prophecy which is why I've concentrated on that side more.

The reason I discredit Spike as an option is largely because I don't like him and don't think that he deserves the Shanshu over Angel. I've never protested that this isn't an ignorant, biased opinion; more than happy to admit that but I'm not going to pretend it's for any other reason lol. I focused my thoughts into how I would feel it cheapened/damaged the whole series of Ats over the characters/prophecy and just haven't been as interested into weighing up the merits of the two vampires because it's not as big of a deal for me. So I wouldn't say that it's a case of me not using any thought but more to do with me thinking about it differently.

 

[zobothehobo]

While I can see your what you're saying, for quite a bit of the thread I've made a point of saying that my whole feeling towards the Shanshu isn't really about the characters or the prophecy itself but the show as a whole and regardless of how it may seem to you, it did require some brain cells and some thought for me to think about it. Personally, I find the credibility of the show more problematic than the characters/prophecy which is why I've concentrated on that side more.

I guess to me Ats wasn't about the Shanshu. It was a tragedy about Angel. I think the Shanshu was part of Ats but it wasn't the central point of Ats. I feel Angel as a tragic hero was the central point of Ats. I think about the end a lot like the end of the movie Shutter Island (I never read the book so I don't feel I can say I think about it like the end of the book). Teddy, the main character of the movie, says his last line of the movie and it sums up the end of Ats for me. "Would you rather die a hero, or live as a monster?" Ats was about Angel's struggle with the evil in him. Not about his path to the Shanshu. In fact, I believe the Shanshu was used as a clever device in this by having the "no one knows which side he'll be fighting on" clause.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think it being Angels show is an EXCELLENT reason why Angel should get the Shanshu.

Spoilers for Battlesar Galactia, Alias and 24:

Spoiler

Just say in Battlestar Galactia, they find an planet to live on, but they have to leave cuz someone got there first.
In Alias, the last episode it's revealed they were never working for the CIA, they were tricked for 5 seasons.
In the last episode of 24, we find out Jack was actually a terrorist.
And like someone said earlier, in season 7 of Buffy we find out Buffy isn't a slayer she's just a really good potential slayer.

none of this happened because it's goes against everything that the show set out to do, Angel set out with Angel seeking redemption and working for the Shanshu, so it's a pretty good reason he should get it.

 

[brinkster130]

Are some of you really trying to say that because Spike said in season 2 "You were my sire, man, you were my yoda" to Angel the Shanshu HAS to be about Angel because when it was first brought up Angel was the only vampire with a soul? 'Cause I for the life of me cannot understand that reasoning. The writers I believe have commented on Spike's line in season 2 and said he worshiped Angelus... he was his "sire" as in "Drusilla sired me, but you made me a monster." And regardless of that, I see absolutely no correlation between that and the Shanshu. How do they connect?

They don't connect. I think people were only bringing up the issue of who sired who because someone was arguing that since Angelus was a "vampire mentor" (so to speak) to Spike that it made Angel more evil than Spike. People only brought up the line of sires because BOTH Angel and Spike were sired and turned into monsters. (Which they both acknowledged in season 5)

 

[Wesley]

I just think that a lot of Spike lovers tend to white wash things that Angel has done. Also to hold a lot of Angelus' actions against Angel, which isn't something you can necessarily do.

A good case for Angels good deeds making him the Shanshu Vampire:

1. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S1 including stopping the Master.

2. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S2 up to the events of Innocence.

3. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S3 after the events of Beauty and the Beasts including stopping the Mayor from ascending to becoming an Old One.

4. He assisted/was helpful for stopping the Chumash Indians in the Buffy S4 episode 'Pangs'

5. He was selected and proclaimed a Champion by the Powers That Be and sent a guide who would receive visions of those in need so that he may do good on this Earth.

6. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S1 including foiling many efforts by the evil law firm Wolfram & Hart.

7. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S2 including saving the alternate dimension Pylea from rule of an evil group of WR&H priests.

8. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S3.

9. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S4, including stopping Jasmine from taking over the world.

10. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S5 including destroying The Circle of the Black Thorn, an evil organization doing the work of evil on Earth. Also put Spike on the path to redemption.

11. Saved a puppy in 1950's Chicago, subsequently told to 'pound snow'.

12. Assisted Buffy during her fight against the First in Buffy S7 by fighting Caleb and providing an amulet a certain former buddy of his used.

13. Tried to save those poor families and that poor little baby during the Boxer Rebellion from the likes of Darla, Dru and Spike.

14. With the assistance of Ghost Wesley, after becoming human, he spent who knows how many months working to protect the citizens of L.A. after they ended up in a hell dimension.

15. Sacrificed himself in WR&H's hell dimension to return the denizens of L.A. to the real world.

16. Twice specifically rejected the 'easy way out' with the Ring of Amarra and the events of IWRY. He chose to instead earn his humanity by fighting for it, by being a champion everyday.

17. Was compelled by love of Buffy to fight for 100 years in a Hell Dimension to get back to her, reappearing in S3 of Buffy. That's ONE HUNDRED YEARS people.

That's 17 pretty good points that shows that our man Angel was no slouch who just sat around waiting to be handed his Shanshu. This vampire has been on the front lines of the fight against evil for much longer then Spike has, done more for people, and let's be honest, thought about his place in the world a lot more.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

I just think that a lot of Spike lovers tend to white wash things that Angel has done. Also to hold a lot of Angelus' actions against Angel, which isn't something you can necessarily do.

A good case for Angels good deeds making him the Shanshu Vampire:

1. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S1 including stopping the Master.

2. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S2 up to the events of Innocence.

3. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S3 after the events of Beauty and the Beasts including stopping the Mayor from ascending to becoming an Old One.

4. He assisted/was helpful for stopping the Chumash Indians in the Buffy S4 episode 'Pangs'

5. He was selected and proclaimed a Champion by the Powers That Be and sent a guide who would receive visions of those in need so that he may do good on this Earth.

6. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S1 including foiling many efforts by the evil law firm Wolfram & Hart.

7. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S2 including saving the alternate dimension Pylea from rule of an evil group of WR&H priests.

8. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S3.

9. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S4, including stopping Jasmine from taking over the world.

10. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S5 including destroying The Circle of the Black Thorn, an evil organization doing the work of evil on Earth. Also put Spike on the path to redemption.

11. Saved a puppy in 1950's Chicago, subsequently told to 'pound snow'.

12. Assisted Buffy during her fight against the First in Buffy S7 by fighting Caleb and providing an amulet a certain former buddy of his used.

13. Tried to save those poor families and that poor little baby during the Boxer Rebellion from the likes of Darla, Dru and Spike.

14. With the assistance of Ghost Wesley, after becoming human, he spent who knows how many months working to protect the citizens of L.A. after they ended up in a hell dimension.

15. Sacrificed himself in WR&H's hell dimension to return the denizens of L.A. to the real world.

16. Twice specifically rejected the 'easy way out' with the Ring of Amarra and the events of IWRY. He chose to instead earn his humanity by fighting for it, by being a champion everyday.

17. Was compelled by love of Buffy to fight for 100 years in a Hell Dimension to get back to her, reappearing in S3 of Buffy. That's ONE HUNDRED YEARS people.

That's 17 pretty good points that shows that our man Angel was no slouch who just sat around waiting to be handed his Shanshu. This vampire has been on the front lines of the fight against evil for much longer then Spike has, done more for people, and let's be honest, thought about his place in the world a lot more.

agree with everything you've listed here... except #17: according to buffy and giles it could've been hundreds of years, actually. but let's not be so petty 😉

 

[Tranquillity]

I love Angel. I love Spike. (Look at my Avi if you don't believe) but i'm not blinded by either of them:

1. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S1 including stopping the Master.

What did he do again? he was the enigmatic bringer of information who actually helps in a physical sense on maybe one ocassion in the whole season. In the final ep, he stands round lamenting Buffy's coming death and only act when Xander asks him to come and help - Buffy defeats the Master.

2. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S2 up to the events of Innocence.

Again, enegmatic bringer of information for the most part - Buffy is the one who gets things done. It would be dishonest not to mention how Angel loses his soul and takes the Judge to the local shopping mall, subjects Buffy to psycological torment, kills Jenny, tries to bring about the end of the world...

3. He assisted/was helpful for stopping everything in Buffy S3 after the events of Beauty and the Beasts including stopping the Mayor from ascending to becoming an Old One.

Angel was more helpful in season three, I'll give you that one.

4. He assisted/was helpful for stopping the Chumash Indians in the Buffy S4 episode 'Pangs'

Umm, what did he do again - stood around looking through windows, fought a couple of warriors (same as Anya, Willow, Xander, Giles) and then Buffy got it done.

5. He was selected and proclaimed a Champion by the Powers That Be and sent a guide who would receive visions of those in need so that he may do good on this Earth.

True - but is this a good thing or is he being used by them all along?

6. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S1 including foiling many efforts by the evil law firm Wolfram & Hart.
7. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S2 including saving the alternate dimension Pylea from rule of an evil group of WR&H priests.
8. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S3.
9. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S4, including stopping Jasmine from taking over the world.
10. He was directly/almost directly responsible for all the good deeds portrayed in AtS S5 including destroying The Circle of the Black Thorn, an evil organization doing the work of evil on Earth. Also put Spike on the path to redemption.

True, but summing up the "good deeds" completly ignores the many many dark and morally questionable things Angel did. I'm thinking of things like his locking Dru and Darla in a room full of lawyers, his sleeping with Dara as a way to rid himself of the troublesome soul, wipeing his friends memories, making the deal with W&H, killing Drogyn etc... all these acts (and more) have incredibly complex moral questions and that was the purpose of AtS - Angel is not a black and white hero - he's grey. That's why Spike coming in and confusing the ShanShu issue works so well because, at that point in time Angel isn't sure he deserves it!

Oh, and I completely disagree that Angel set Spike on the path of redemption - Spike did that, Buffy helped a lot, Angel, i'll credit with slim assistance.

11. Saved a puppy in 1950's Chicago, subsequently told to 'pound snow'.

🙂 Well, Spike didn't eat Sunshine...

12. Assisted Buffy during her fight against the First in Buffy S7 by fighting Caleb and providing an amulet a certain former buddy of his used.

He got knocked out and Buffy made julienne preacher.

13. Tried to save those poor families and that poor little baby during the Boxer Rebellion from the likes of Darla, Dru and Spike.

...But ate 'evil doers'

14. With the assistance of Ghost Wesley, after becoming human, he spent who knows how many months working to protect the citizens of L.A. after they ended up in a hell dimension.

Hell yeah - After the Fall was awesome. (But I must point out that Spike and Connor also did their fair share in that same situation - Spike: After the Fall was awesome too)

15. Sacrificed himself in WR&H's hell dimension to return the denizens of L.A. to the real world

.

True.

16. Twice specifically rejected the 'easy way out' with the Ring of Amarra and the events of IWRY. He chose to instead earn his humanity by fighting for it, by being a champion everyday.

There is no doubt that Angel feels he needs to earn his redemption. I admire the reasons he made the decision to destroy the ring and turn back time but, in my opinion, he diminishes the second one by not telling Buffy what went down and leaving her ignorant. But then thats Angel being grey again - Nobility tempered with moral ambiguity. That's what makes him an interesting (often infuriating) character.

17. Was compelled by love of Buffy to fight for 100 years in a Hell Dimension to get back to her, reappearing in S3 of Buffy. That's ONE HUNDRED YEARS people.

Compelled by love? I've never heard that theory. I like it. I've always thought it was The TPB bringing him back so they could start manipulating him, but either way, it negates the near 100 years he spent being fairly ineffective after he got cursed and before he saw Buffy.

In closeing - Angel is a good guy (for the most part) but he's not all Golden - that's why the doubt about the candidicy for the ShanShu works so well in season five - because Angel doubts he's entirely worthy and Spike presents a pretty good case.

 

[Nikita]

I just want to add final opinion (from me) to this thread. I'm going to go with what Flannen has laid out about it being based on ATS. How it'd become pointless if Spike got shanshu'd.

If the same prophecy had said; "Another vampire would become ensoulled" and then went on to later say what it said about the ensoulled vampire becoming human, I'd understand that and Spike even getting shanshu'd would make sense

But from what we know on ATS, Angel should be shanshu'd and hopefully will be.

 

[mayfever]

Wow! Heated debate. I just read through four pages and I think my opinion has been illustrated quite well by Flannen and scobro. I agree with CE insofar as that the prophecy could fit Spike, but I have few doubts that it will eventually be Angel, because I think the argument that the show is called Angel and not Spike actually works. Maybe it's a cheap shot, but I'll drag out Harry Potter to prove my point: The prophecy about Voldemort and the half-blood boy born at the end of July would have fitted Neville Longbottom to the same extent as it did Harry, but the books aren't set in the Longbottomverse. Now I know the comparison is flawed because the reason the prophecy ended up being about Harry after all was that Voldemort went and "marked" Harry because he didn't hear the whole thing, but I reckon that we may well find out that there is a "clause" in the Shanshu prophecy that makes it uniquely Angel's - after all, the full text was never revealed. It's gonna be cheap writing fo shizzle, but let's face it - wouldn't be the first time, eh?

I'd also like to take a stand to a few opinions that came up in the discussion:

Also, let's not forget that Angel made money from helping people.

But he didn't want to at first, he just realised that he had to in order to serve his original purpose more effectively.

Buffy knows she can't be with Angel as long as he's a vampire. And Spike, well she did imply to him that they might be together after the final fight. She wouldn't be with neither of them completely as long as they're vampires. This is true for both.l

When did Buffy say something like that to Spike?
Other than that, I know that Buffy and Angel can't be together as long as he's a vampire because of the curse. My post (if anyone remembers it, lol) referred to the fact that Buffy did not care about that; she would have stayed with Angel if he hadn't made the decision to leave. Thus, what I wanted to say is this: Although both vampires want the Shanshu to be with Buffy, their reasoning behind it is oppositional. Spike wants it because he thinks Buffy won't be with him unless he becomes human, and Angel won't let himself be with Buffy unless he becomes human.

I think it was also Chosen Enemy who brought up repeatedly the view that Spike was less responsible for his bad deeds than Angel/us because he was essentially peer-pressured into behaving that way, and I just wanted to say that I absolutely refuse to accept that as a reason that he deserves the Shanshu more than Angel. It basically just means that he used to be a pathetic weakling who changed his tune according to the current regime. Mind you, I don't want to use this argument in favour of Angel as the Shanshu candidate either, in fact I think "pathological" character traits should be neither here nor there in the question which vampire is more deserving. As Angel once said, "all that matters is what we do". In that respect, Angel did more good than Spike, ergo he should get the Shanshu.

He had a chip in his head which completely altered him. He wasn't able to act on his impulses without being in excruciating pain. He was essentially a vampire being trained to refrain from evil - the chip was not something he wanted, he was stuck with it. By the time is was removed he was already conditioned not to kill.

Excellent point! I never thought about it that way, but I do know and I think I will claim this opinion for my own from now on.

 

[zobothehobo]

Tillow4ever agrees: Alien Time Machine. If you understand this... I'll love you even more.

I wish I knew what that meant. I've heard it before, but all I've got in my head with "Alien Time Machine" is the Tardis. And I'm not sure what that has to do with the Shanshu prophecy...