Who used who? Spike and Buffy

[ILLYRIAN]

Buffy only thought she was in heaven, was it stated that she really was in heaven?
The way I see it if the evil wanted to get a slayer big time, it would make her think she was in heaven. Then burst her bubble.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Spike was about as selfless as a soulless creature could be.
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Buffy only thought she was in heaven, was it stated that she really was in heaven?
The way I see it if the evil wanted to get a slayer big time, it would make her think she was in heaven. Then burst her bubble.

I'd say heaven would be likely though. Willow's reasoning for thinking she was in hell was that she guessed that Buffy's soul didn't die, but got sucked into one of the hell dimensions that Glory opened. That's pretty convoluted, Buffy dying and going to heaven seems more reasonable.

 

[palabravampiress]

I'd say heaven would be likely though. Willow's reasoning for thinking she was in hell was that she guessed that Buffy's soul didn't die, but got sucked into one of the hell dimensions that Glory opened. That's pretty convoluted, Buffy dying and going to heaven seems more reasonable.

I kind of disagree. Glory opened a portal into a Hell dimension and Buffy died by jumping into it in order to close it. It seems pretty reasonable to think that Buffy ended up in that Hell dimension.

To me, assuming that she went to Heaven seems pretty far fetched. Up to that point in the show, we knew for certain that Hell dimensions existed (Angel had been sucked into one and Glory had opened one), but no one had ever said anything about a Heaven dimension. Even if the Scoobies had known of someone being sucked into or opening a Heaven dimension at that point, why would it make sense to automatically assume that Buffy had ended up there instead of in the dimension into which she had jumped? Up to that point in the Buffyverse, no one had ever discussed dimensional destinations as being the result of just desserts. Instead, ending up in a dimension had been more a matter of which portal one had opened. To me, the Heaven revelation came as a surprise. I had never once assumed anything about Buffy's post-demise destination -- not even that she had had a destination, as up to that point, no one had ever come back from the dead and talked about where they had resided in the interim.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I'm not saying she was sucked into a heavenly dimension, I'm saying she just died, as the presence of her corpse implied. This was later verified.

 

[fly on the wall]

I kind of disagree. Glory opened a portal into a Hell dimension and Buffy died by jumping into it in order to close it. It seems pretty reasonable to think that Buffy ended up in that Hell dimension.

To me, assuming that she went to Heaven seems pretty far fetched. Up to that point in the show, we knew for certain that Hell dimensions existed (Angel had been sucked into one and Glory had opened one), but no one had ever said anything about a Heaven dimension. Even if the Scoobies had known of someone being sucked into or opening a Heaven dimension at that point, why would it make sense to automatically assume that Buffy had ended up there instead of in the dimension into which she had jumped? Up to that point in the Buffyverse, no one had ever discussed dimensional destinations as being the result of just desserts. Instead, ending up in a dimension had been more a matter of which portal one had opened. To me, the Heaven revelation came as a surprise. I had never once assumed anything about Buffy's post-demise destination -- not even that she had had a destination, as up to that point, no one had ever come back from the dead and talked about where they had resided in the interim.

I agree. I often hear people talking about how wrong it was of the Scoobies to assume Buffy was in hell, since it was very different from Angel being sucked into hell and they only convinced themselves of where she was to justify the selfish desire to bring her back....but I don't fully buy that. I agree they definitely latched onto the Buffy-is-in-hell theory pretty quick (but, as you said, why shouldn't they have? We'd never heard of any heavenly dimension at that point) and I think that's because they missed her...but when I watch Willow's speech about how she can't bear to leave Buffy in hell, I believe her. I believe she thinks she's right, and no, not just because of her magic addiction, but because she's Buffy's friend. If there was any chance at all my friend was being tortured for eternity (and c'mon, there was definitely a chance Buffy had been sucked into a hell dimension) I'd probably summon Osiris too.

Anyway, that was a bit off-topic.
I don't think it was ever confirmed officially that Buffy was "In Heaven." Meaning, they didn't have an exact location of where she'd been, nobody else had visited, etc. But I don't think it matters. She was somewhere peaceful, where she felt safe and warm and good. She said, "I think I was in heaven," and it's what she thinks and feels that matters.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I agree. I often hear people talking about how wrong it was of the Scoobies to assume Buffy was in hell, since it was very different from Angel being sucked into hell and they only convinced themselves of where she was to justify the selfish desire to bring her back....but I don't fully buy that. I agree they definitely latched onto the Buffy-is-in-hell theory pretty quick (but, as you said, why shouldn't they have? We'd never heard of any heavenly dimension at that point) and I think that's because they missed her...but when I watch Willow's speech about how she can't bear to leave Buffy in hell, I believe her. I believe she thinks she's right, and no, not just because of her magic addiction, but because she's Buffy's friend. If there was any chance at all my friend was being tortured for eternity (and c'mon, there was definitely a chance Buffy had been sucked into a hell dimension) I'd probably summon Osiris too.

Anyway, that was a bit off-topic.
I don't think it was ever confirmed officially that Buffy was "In Heaven." Meaning, they didn't have an exact location of where she'd been, nobody else had visited, etc. But I don't think it matters. She was somewhere peaceful, where she felt safe and warm and good. She said, "I think I was in heaven," and it's what she thinks and feels that matters.

Willow convinced them. Xander, Giles & Spike all believed she was dead. Even though Willow was the most powerful, I'd say Spike & Giles would have been more informed.

 

[fly on the wall]

Willow convinced them. Xander, Giles & Spike all believed she was dead. Even though Willow was the most powerful, I'd say Spike & Giles would have been more informed.

I think Giles would have been against it because of the havoc it could have wreaked on Earth.
I think he, too, very much believed Buffy was in a hell dimension. Or at least, believed it was a possibility. He worried that by bringing Buffy back, and re-opening the portal to hell, the walls between dimensions would collapse. That's why he was opposed to it. He loved Buffy and missed her terribly but he always saw the big picture. He wasn't willing to destroy the world to bring her back, as Willow was.

Spike, well, we know his theory as to why he was left in the dark.

I think Xander also believed Buffy was in hell. He had more reservations about bringing her back than Willow did, simply because Willow was overly confident in her powers. I don't think he suspected she was in heaven, or he would have said as much.

 

[cryptwarmer]

No, I suppose that physically, she could have told her friends.
But we all saw Xander's reaction in Entropy. We all saw how ashamed and guilty Buffy felt for having sex with a soulless vampire, for using that vampire solely for sex. Who can blame her, really, for not telling?

I justify her depression because I feel that her depression was justified.
Do I think she should have sat around and wallowed? No. And she didn't. She still accomplished her Slayer duties, she was "going through the motions" trying to be normal. She sought solace and comfort in Spike. Her friends, I feel, didn't pick up the slack and help her the way she needed to be helped. Spike didn't help her the way she needed to be helped. And that makes me feel horrible for Buffy.
The fact that there's a heaven would comfort you, I'd imagine, unless you were pulled from it. For the first time ever, Buffy felt safe and certain. She felt finished where she was, a feeling that none of us can really grasp. And then she was pulled out from that feeling, which must have been extremely traumatizing. She was tossed back into a world that now felt like hell compared to where she'd been, and she was expected, by her friends, to be as grateful and happy as they were. Her depression WAS completely justified. People have been more depressed for lesser events happening in their lives.

you might be interested in this, I posted it ages ago and it flew like a lead balloon, but I have lots of sympathy for Buffy...


My NDE and Buffy's resurrection - Buffy-Boards

 

[zoelee]

i think that they were both using each other. spike knew what was happening even if he did love her, he wanted it to keep happening but buffy couldnt do it any longer.

 

[fly on the wall]

you might be interested in this, I posted it ages ago and it flew like a lead balloon, but I have lots of sympathy for Buffy...


My NDE and Buffy's resurrection - Buffy-Boards

That is an interesting thread...unfortunate that it didn't go very far, I think it would have been really fascinating to see others' experiences.

I also have sympathy for Buffy this season because I feel I can relate to her. Not because I had a NDE, but yeah. I sympathize more with her than an obsessed vampire in love who can't look past his own selfish desires to do what's best for the woman he loves.

 

[cryptwarmer]

That is an interesting thread...unfortunate that it didn't go very far, I think it would have been really fascinating to see others' experiences.

I also have sympathy for Buffy this season because I feel I can relate to her. Not because I had a NDE, but yeah. I sympathize more with her than an obsessed vampire in love who can't look past his own selfish desires to do what's best for the woman he loves.

I think he was doing what he thought was best. He may have been wrong, very wrong, but I do think he thought that his form of "darkness" therapy might help bring her round.

I guess I have sympathy for both of them, and can find experiences in my own life that are sorta like what each is going through.

I don't think Spike really saw the damage that their sexual relationship was causing her, not until the attempted rape, when he finally saw the truth of it all. Before that he merely thought the woman doth protest too much.

That happens, even with real friends, sometimes we screw one another up in spite of our best intentions and efforts to help.

I don't feel like I need to find a hero or bad guy in this situation, I can see aspects of both in Buffy AND Spike, they were two lost people trying to find a way, trying to adjust to huge feelings and changes, and not being very graceful about it.

I'm in that place myself right now, not over love, but in my life, and I'm doing a pretty awkward job of it. Maybe that is why, in spite of how depressing it is, I find myself replaying episodes from S6 so much.

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Good point. Season 6 is comforting, in a way, because it lets us know that even our heroes have a hard time adjusting to, well, life. It is possible, I suppose, that the Spike and Buffy relationship doesn't have a good guy or a bad guy, but that both occupy a more sympathetic role somewhere in-between.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I just feel so bad for Buffy this season (and for Spike, too) and Xander's opinion of the Buffy/Spike relationship embodies what annoys me so much about it: that Buffy gets all the blame and all the guilt and the title of a "user," but Spike gets little if any.

And yet, that didn't stop Xander from attempting to murder Spike in that episode.


Let's be honest folks. Both Buffy and Spike were to blame for what happened between them in S6. Both tried to rape each other. Mind you, Spike is condemned for his attempted rape, because ME treated it seriously, whereas they had treated Buffy's act of attempted rape in "Gone" as comic relief. On the other hand, they treated Buffy's abuse of Spike very seriously. And his little "come with me to the dark side" speech in "Dead Things".


Both Buffy and Spike realized that they had hurt each other rather badly. And although neither of them ever said "I'm sorry" to one another, both managed to forgive each other by Season 7's "Never Leave Me".

What is the point of this "who's to blame", when the series made it clear that they both were?

 

[fly on the wall]

What is the point of this "who's to blame", when the series made it clear that they both were?

What the series says and what the viewers say are different things. I was merely curious as to what the viewers think.
I have never denied that the using/abuse/rape/whatever you classify it as was shared between Buffy and Spike...but whether or not it was shared equally was the question.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Spike was about as selfless as a soulless creature could be.

Which is about the same as human beings. Unfortunately, most humans would be unwilling to admit this.

I have never denied that the using/abuse/rape/whatever you classify it as was shared between Buffy and Spike...but whether or not it was shared equally was the question.

Equally? Since when did numbers matter? Both Buffy and Spike hurt each other in S6. In S7, both were able to forgive each other.

 

[Kana]

This is just the problem. I wrote this on another forum.

Do we judge them by our human moral standards? If a vampire is simply a demon do we judge it as a human or are they just our natural predator? Do vampires have free will and even if they do, do they not have certain psychological constraints like all beings (a vampire may argue a soul is a constraint lol)

In short I have an issue with blaming vampires by human standards. However Spike behviour seems to differ from that of most vampires and what is more odd, Buffy using a soulless monster, the kind which she kills everyday or that fact that she has feelings for one of them.

To be honest I don't judge either of them that harshley. However I'd have advised Buffy not to use Spike to eschew her responsibilities, not just for herself but for others. To be honest, though, I don't know what is healty emotionally for a soulless vampire.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Considering that I cannot accept Joss Whedon's view on what possessing a soul means and that to me, souled human beings have proven to be just as monstrous as unsouled vampires or demons, I really don't see the need to judge characters - whether they are human or not - differently.

Try judging them, based upon your ownmoral compass and no one else's. Yes, I know that it's hard. Even I have difficulty in following this advice. But in the end, I realize that it works for me.

 

[Kana]

Considering that I cannot accept Joss Whedon's view on what possessing a soul means and that to me, souled human beings have proven to be just as monstrous as unsouled vampires or demons, I really don't see the need to judge characters - whether they are human or not - differently.

Try judging them, based upon your ownmoral compass and no one else's. Yes, I know that it's hard. Even I have difficulty in following this advice. But in the end, I realize that it works for me.

The reason I judge them differently because vampires seem to take on a the some of the characteristics of their species. Sweet William, became a viscious killer without remorse, Xander who had no murderous tendencies also became a killer without remorse. Even if we don't accept Joss' view on what a soul is it still requires us to question what the soul is. I tended to think in crude terms it was a conscience. Now if a human chose not to follow their conscience, I could judge them in a particular way however, if a vampire didn't have a conscience then I couldn't blame them for not following it.

Basing things on my own moral compass? Well let's put it this way, how would you act if you were vampire? If you could answer this with certainty then fine, but personally, I wouldn't be able to. I am adverse to killing now as a human but hypothetically I was turned into a vampire then I may not be. Most vampires seem to go through this psychological change so I wouldn't judge them by human standards or my own because it would be more of a question of luck than choice.

Someone once used the anology of Xander judging Spike. If fate had worked out differently, William may have died a gentle soul and Xander a remorse killer: luck, not choice, therefore, I reserve my judgement.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I agree. I often hear people talking about how wrong it was of the Scoobies to assume Buffy was in hell, since it was very different from Angel being sucked into hell and they only convinced themselves of where she was to justify the selfish desire to bring her back....but I don't fully buy that. I agree they definitely latched onto the Buffy-is-in-hell theory pretty quick (but, as you said, why shouldn't they have? We'd never heard of any heavenly dimension at that point) and I think that's because they missed her...but when I watch Willow's speech about how she can't bear to leave Buffy in hell, I believe her. I believe she thinks she's right, and no, not just because of her magic addiction, but because she's Buffy's friend. If there was any chance at all my friend was being tortured for eternity (and c'mon, there was definitely a chance Buffy had been sucked into a hell dimension) I'd probably summon Osiris too.

No matter how you put it, I feel that Willow and the rest of the Scoobies still made an assumption. They didn’t know whether Buffy was in a hell dimension or not. They didn’t bother to find a way to discover where Buffy’s sprit was. They made an assumption and acted upon it. And quite frankly, I’m criticizing them for not using common sense or for jumping to conclusions.

Basing things on my own moral compass? Well let's put it this way, how would you act if you were vampire? If you could answer this with certainty then fine, but personally, I wouldn't be able to. I am adverse to killing now as a human but hypothetically I was turned into a vampire then I may not be. Most vampires seem to go through this psychological change so I wouldn't judge them by human standards or my own because it would be more of a question of luck than choice.

I don’t know how I would react if I turned into a vampire. But I’m not going to assume I would turn out as Whedon has portrayed most of them on the series. But from what I have seen of the series, vampires/demons and humans seemed to have similar capacities for both good and evil. And yet, we're expected to believe that humans have a greater capacity for good than vampires and other demons, because humans have "souls".

As much as I enjoy science-fiction and fantaSY, One of the problems I have with these genres is that although humans are portrayed as flawed, they seemed to be portrayed as morally superior to other beings, whether they are aliens in sci-fi or supernatural beings in fantasy. Even worse, these stories allow non-humans to develop as characters by allowing them to embrace human values. Sometimes, I think humans like to use the science-fiction and fantasy genres for good old-fashioned ego stroking, unless the characters are all humans.

 

[Jordan]

They were selfish. But I'd have done the same.

They NEEDED Buffy! Faith was the only slayer left and she was unreachable. Obviously they brought her back to prevent themselves greiving. But in a way they unwillingly saved a lot of lives in advance. 🙂