Who used who? Spike and Buffy

[LadyLavinia]

They were selfish. But I'd have done the same.

They NEEDED Buffy! Faith was the only slayer left and she was unreachable. Obviously they brought her back to prevent themselves greiving. But in a way they unwillingly saved a lot of lives in advance. 🙂

Why are you all trying to make excuses for what Willow had done? She screwed up. So did the other Scoobies. If you agree with what they had done, you might as well justify those African shamans for comitting psychic rape against that girl who became the First Slayer. And I found that repellent. I get sick and tired of people making excuses for dark deed comitted in the name of "the greater good". Even Buffy had something to say about that in S7.

 

[fly on the wall]

Why are you all trying to make excuses for what Willow had done? She screwed up. So did the other Scoobies. If you agree with what they had done, you might as well justify those African shamans for comitting psychic rape against that girl who became the First Slayer. And I found that repellent. I get sick and tired of people making excuses for dark deed comitted in the name of "the greater good". Even Buffy had something to say about that in S7.

We know the Scoobies screwed up. The Scoobies know that they screwed up.
But I don't make excuses for them because I believe what they did was for "the greater good." I believe what they did was out of love and sadness. Maybe they should have tried harder to find out where Buffy was....how they would have done that, I have no idea, but maybe they should have tried. And maybe they should have just sat back and accepted that wherever Buffy was, heaven or hell, she should stay there...but, as I said, if I was in their position, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.

As for the whole, "Should vampires be judged on the same moral plane as humans", I think in some cases, yes. I think the Whedonverse does a really good job of stressing that the difference between demons and people is NOT black and white. Look at characters like Warren and Faith, or humans that surrender their humanity like the Mayor and Caleb. Look at demons like Angel, Spike, etc etc. To me, this is not saying people are better morally than demons. It's saying, if anything, that the evil ones are not always clear, that the heroes can do some pretty shifty things too.
I think we're supposed to judge Spike on the same human level as any other character, even though he doesn't possess a soul. I think he was written that way.

 

[Kana]

I don't know how I would react if I turned into a vampire. But I'm not going to assume I would turn out as Whedon has portrayed most of them on the series. But from what I have seen of the series, vampires/demons and humans seemed to have similar capacities for both good and evil. And yet, we're expected to believe that humans have a greater capacity for good than vampires and other demons, because humans have "souls".

As much as I enjoy science-fiction and fantaSY, One of the problems I have with these genres is that although humans are portrayed as flawed, they seemed to be portrayed as morally superior to other beings, whether they are aliens in sci-fi or supernatural beings in fantasy. Even worse, these stories allow non-humans to develop as characters by allowing them to embrace human values. Sometimes, I think humans like to use the science-fiction and fantasy genres for good old-fashioned ego stroking, unless the characters are all humans.

The point I'm trying to make is that if the soul is a conscience then how can vampires be blamed for not following something they don't have.

I'm not actually arguing moral superiority, I'm arguing that it is difficult to judge an individual who lacks a metaphysical human aspect that clearly affects their behaviour against someone who has this aspect.

Don't get me wrong, human do cause a lot of harm, not just to each other but to other speciesand for years we've killed just for sport, however even by embracing this fact we shouldn't ignore that the average human wouldn't simply kill a human without remorse, not in the Verse anyway. 'Evil' humans are presented as rare and humans who cause harm to others, often remorseful. Are we all remorseless creatures in the real world? Scary thought but to be honest, I don't think most of us are and often what leads us to commit such acts is complex.

I understand what you're saying and I don't think Joss presents it as this simple, but, you cannot deny the psychological differences between the creatures, especially with the examples I gave. How can it be that Liam, William and Xander when they were human didn't appear to have murderous tendencies but when they are turned, they do. I'm basing my analysis on what I see, not what I want to see.

 

[DrusillaRox]

For the question this thread actually poses

I believe it is a tie, Their relationship was violent, built only on Buffy's desire to feel, mentally abusive, and just so happened to ruin one of my favourite characters, not to mention turned the show into the "spike and Buffy show" So, I believe it was unhealth and that they used each other

 

[Jordan]

QUOTE=LadyLavinia;635245]Why are you all trying to make excuses for what Willow had done? She screwed up. So did the other Scoobies. If you agree with what they had done, you might as well justify those African shamans for comitting psychic rape against that girl who became the First Slayer. And I found that repellent. I get sick and tired of people making excuses for dark deed comitted in the name of "the greater good". Even Buffy had something to say about that in S7.[/QUOTE]


I can only say about that what I've already said. Buffy was a dear freind, difference between Buffy being a freind to everyone else is she saved their asses SO many times. They must have felt as though they needed to return the favour. After all if they COULD do it then why not?
It's almost like saying that when Willow was up against Glory in Season 5 and was about to stab-ded that Buffy despite being able to do something about it never. I mean sure her saving her freinds were in their best interests. And in this case Buffy was reefed from heaven, and into a hell like place.

But in their defence they never knew that she went to heaven. After all it's not like she jumped into a big pink ball of energy with angels wearing litle slippers dancing around it did she?
She jumped into something that was so evil it was going to end the world.

Not only did they not know, but they also HAD too. (How long was it gonna be until the BuffyBot screwed up?)

I'm not saying what they done was the right thing but it was certainly something that they, at the time thought was best. After all can't blame someone for lack of knowledge.
: king :

 

[sandra]

Spike loves Buffy.She used that to fill something.He tried to help her.His words to her in "Normal Again" are that her friends cold help her in her misery if she told them that she sleaping with him spoke very much.He loves he and know that she is un happy.But she does not ask for help.He is hurt but he want her to ask for help.I think that Buffy started to fill something deaper for Spike and that is a reason she ends reletionship.

 

[Spuffy4l87]

I think they both used each other. Buffy used Spike to feel and just take everything she had been penting up and let it out, while Spike used her. He knew what she was doing, but he used her to satisfy himself and his love for her. He took everything that she gave him despite the reason behind it. That is why I think they had such a strong bond and were able to forgive each other in Season 7. Because they were both at fault and used one another. Spike wanted her to accept him and to love him like he loved her, so he used her actions and desires to fulfill or substitute his need to be near her.

Sure, Buffy technically used Spike more to escape the world and her friends, to feel, taking advantage of his feelings towards her, but he took advantage of her advances rather than trying to help her and ultimately push her back on a straight path that would lead her away from him.

Both guilty!

 

[Zombierella]

I think Buffy and Spike used eachother. Buffy used Spike because she couldn't tell her friends that they pulled her out of heaven, Not hell. Everytime she was around the scoobies she always felt like they were walking on egg shells around her. They were constantly asking her if she was okay. They wanted to know what it was like in hell. They didn't understand that it was too difficult for her to talk about the ordeal she went through. They also assumed that when she died she went to hell. Instead of asking her where she went, They asked her "So, how was hell?". Which made things alot worse for Buffy. How are you supposed to tell your friends how hell was when you were never there?

Spike never assumed Buffy went to heaven or hell. He told Willow that when you ressurect the dead there are always concequences. I think for Buffy her consequences were having to live in Sunnydale. Again. She was finally at peace until they dragged her out. They never asked her what she wanted if anything was to happen to her. They were being selfish. By the time they realized what they had done the damage was done and there was no turning back.

As far as Spike being selfish. He took advantage of Buffy's situation. He wanted her all to himself. He figured that while she was down and emotionally depressed he would keep her there. That way when she had doubts she would always come running back to him. Which I admit was wrong of him. Instead of trying to help Buffy, Spike told her that there wasnt anything wrong with him, and that there wasnt anything wrong with his chip. He told her that there was something wrong with her. That when they brought her back she came back wrong. He kept trying to convince her that being with him was her best option. When in reality her best option would have been to come clean and tell her friends the truth. It would have been alot less brutal than what really happened in Once More, With Feeling.

So my general opinion is that everyone was selfish. Buffy, Spike and the scoobies. Buffy for neglecting to tell her friends the truth and relying on spike to be there when she wanted him there. Spike for using Buffy's fragile state of mind as a way to get into her life. A way to keep her all to himself. He knew she was using him, and she knew he was using her, It was all a matter of convenience. The scoobies were selfish b/c they brought Buffy back from the dead. They assumed she was in a bad place. They didnt think it was possible that she was at peace in heaven. So they did the spell, brought her back, and all it did was bring her back to hell on earth in sunnydale so she would have to fight more big bad's and the first. I hate to say it, But Buffy was better off dead. Atleast she was at peace. She did her job. She completed her task. It was her time to rest. She fought the good fight. I think her friends atleast owed her that much!

 

[Aly Fan]

Well Buffy used Spike, I think that's pretty safe to say, and why wouldn't she! She's been torn out of the only place she's ever felt complete contentment and she could finally stop worrying about everyone because she knew that what she'd sacraficed had saved them all! But on returning to Sunnydale things that felt normal to her previously were now almost too horrific for her to deal with. Buffy took alot of comfort in Spike, she was able to tell him that it wasn't really hell that she'd been...it was heaven. But Buffy never told the Scooby gang this originally, she'd just avoided any discussion on the subject, and rightly so! So doesn't that imply that she found something in Spike that she could relate to or that there must be something there for her to confide in.

Later on however their relationship gets slightly more destructive, with Giles leaving, financial difficulties and Buffy still not being content in Sunnydale she turns to Spike, and she definately uses him. She becomes more and more dependant on Spike, and their relation ship...it allows her to feel something...something that she's been craving.

Spike however is definately not the innoucent party! He knew all about Buffy's situation and did absolutely nothing at all to prevent her from using him, he welcomed it, and this allowed Spike to manipulate Buffy in later episodes regarding their rather destructive episodes...he often convinces her to stay with him longer...or "do it" in public places...so Spike definately used Buffy when she was in her weakened state.

Basically, long story short...they both used each other 😛

 

[Kelsey]

Well Buffy used Spike, I think that's pretty safe to say, and why wouldn't she!....


....Spike however is definately not the innocent party! He knew all about Buffy's situation and did absolutely nothing at all to prevent her from using him....

I guess we can see which side you lean towards. =P

Because I lean towards Spike's side of things, I'd say that Spike did try at first to make her stop using him. When she was invisible and sleeping with him, he went as far to kick her out. But how long could he resist the love of his life when she was so forcefully throwing herself at him? He let it get away with him because couldn't make himself stop, and that certainly led to tragedy, but I wouldn't say it was his responsibilty to stop her. Whatever hell she was going through being back on earth again, I'd say he went through misery that came pretty damn close.

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

Buffy did use Spike and he was a willing participant in their T0XIC liason.


The final scene with Buffy and Tara in "Dead Things" was heartbreaking. For me, it was the moment when she came to the realization of that fact.


well played by both SMG and Amber Benson.

 

[Perny]

I don't see Spike using Buffy. Spike was in love with Buffy, and when she turned to him, he saw an oppotunity to finally be with her. Even though he might have known she was just using him. He knew as well as she did, he was a monster, soulless. But it didn't matter to him. Buffy wanted him, and it was all that really mattered, all he really wished for.
Even though I'm a devoted Spuffy shipper, I don't deny season 6 was merely Buffy using Spike for sex. But I still believe there is more than just "lust" between them, as most anti Spuffies claim.

 

[charmedones193]

i think that buffy used spike....Spike was in love with her, but then watching them at anya/xander (not wedding) i think in someway she loved him.