Who Wants to Discuss Season 6?

Kelsey

Scooby
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
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I sure do! As you may or may not have noticed, discussing and debating are in the top five of my favorite things to do. My idea for this thread was sparked by This Article (link), which is fantastic and voices almost all of my complaints about Season Six. It's located at All About Spike, but don't let that fool you! It talks about Season Six in general, and all of the plotlines involved, not just Spike's. I urge you to read it because it's truthful, opinionated and funny, but if you don't want to, here are some topics that I think you guys will respond to:

So, on to the stuff I am gonna talk about. Season 6 of BtVS was touted as the season of "Oh, grow up!" but the emotional development of the core Scoobies actually regressed. The Scoobs fought their inner demons this year, and unfortunately most of them lost.

Willow:
Willow has never, before this season, been portrayed as an addictive personality. Willow's flaws have lain in her insecurity, which drives her to try to control the world and the people around her so as to eliminate pain from her life, and in her desire to pursue knowledge regardless of consequences. We've watched Willow's use of magic grow more and more careless and unethical over the last several years. This year, with the resurrection spell, clearly black magic and the wrong thing to do on many levels, we seemed primed for that deadliest of villains--a hero consumed with hubris who believes that she's in the right. Willow's wiping Tara's memory not once but twice were deliciously wrong and creepy and perfectly in character. Her actions were logical extensions of the 'Willow knows best, just make the pain go away' attitude manifested in the de-lusting spell and the will-be-done spells of seasons past.

But in "Wrecked," the plotline which had been building since Willow rashly decided to re-soul Angel jumped the shark. All of a sudden it's not what Willow does with magic that's wrong, it's that magic itself is heroin. Not only does this make no sense with the way magic's been portrayed previously in the show, it makes no sense in terms of Willow's character. Willow's drug is power and control, and Rack's magic crack, which caused her to lose control, would hardly be an attractive experience for her. Unless it was physically addictive, in which case Willow should have been jonesing for that particular kind of magic, not magic in general.

Willow has never assimilated the fact that wiping Tara's mind was wrong, nor displayed any remorse for doing it. Right up to the season finale, in which Willow, insane with grief over her lover's death, tortures Tara's killer to death and then attempts to destroy the entire world to make the pain stop, Willow blames the magic. It's Willow that's the problem, not the magic, and not only does Willow fail to realize it, neither do the other characters, nor, apparently, the writers.

Xander and Anya:
Xander's story was in many ways the most tragic. He so feared turning into his bigoted, abusive, alcoholic father that he allowed his fear to turn him into the very thing he loathes. Unlike all the other characters on the show, Xander has no excuses, no outs. He's not a soulless demon, he's not 'addicted' to magic, he's not been ripped out of heaven. Xander purely and simply messed up. Though he redeemed himself somewhat in the final episodes by risking his life talking Willow out of her grief-induced insanity, and making an overture towards patching up his rift with Buffy, he hasn't really faced the fears which made him abandon his bride at the altar, much less taken any steps towards conquering them.

Anya, on the other hand, is one of the few characters who made some positive progress this year. Always ahead of the Scooby pack when it came to supporting herself, this year Anya has begun to question Xander's condescending attitude towards her and stand up for herself emotionally. After the wedding debacle, Anya reclaims her powers as a vengeance demon, but it's obvious her heart isn't in it any longer. Indeed, when Spike finally gives her the chance to cast the vengeful wish against Xander she's been angling for, Anya, in a remarkable demonstration of maturity in the face of hurt and anger, stops him from voicing it. Despite her return to demon status and her personal feelings about Xander, Anya helps the gang stop Willow. This is a far cry from the Anya who, in Season 3, was willing to skip out on the Apocalypse. Three snaps in triangle formation for the vengeance demon!

Spike:
Spike's good actions this season were consistently dismissed as meaningless by both the other characters and the writers because they were 'selfishly motivated,' i.e. spurred by love for Buffy rather than by a commitment to good for good's sake. While there are legitimate points to this view--the most obvious being that if Spike only does good for love of Buffy, what happens if he stops loving Buffy?--whether Spike refrains from eating someone out of love or principle, I doubt the potential Happy Meal gives a damn. And in many cases one has to split the ethical hairs pretty fine to make all of Spike's actions out to be selfish, particularly his actions over the summer when Buffy was dead, so far as he knew, for good.

But this question raises a far more serious one, not about Spike, but about the rest of the Scooby gang. The Scoobs insist Spike is a monster, and fundamentally untrustworthy. Yet they are willing to exploit his love for Buffy and Dawn, and no less his unadmitted but deep-seated desire for companionship in general, in order to use him for muscle and (in Buffy's case) for sex. They then cut him off when they no longer need him. It never seems to occur to them that this is less than admirable behavior on their part, and furthermore, is calculated to produce ever-worse behavior on Spike's part.

The highest measure of a hero is not in how she treats her friends, but in how she treats her fallen enemies. Buffy has an extremely poor track record in this regard. The greatest of heroes are those who have the vision to try and make a fallen enemy into an ally. Failing that, granting them a quick clean death, or keeping an eye on them and refraining from poking them with a stick is good. In Spike's case, the Scoobs have been all with the stick-poking, and they are just damned lucky that even as a monster, Spike's proven to be a better man than they are.......

This season Spike was subjected to emotional stress that would have caused many an ordinary human to snap and take an Uzi to the nearest McDonalds. He was used by the Scoobs, and used, abused, and discarded by Buffy. Spike's supposed to be torn by his inability to be either a monster or a man, but given the way things have played out this season, the writers failed to convince me that Spike can't be a man without a soul--only that he wasn't allowed to be. Instead of "It's impossible to be good without a soul," the lesson comes off more like "If you're trying to be good without a soul, and no one around you helps you and the woman you're madly in love with insists you're an evil worthless thing, then you will probably break like a twig."

Buffy:
Last but not least, we come to Buffy. Buffy's arc this year has been in many ways the least satisfying, because so much of it has consisted of Buffy being expressionless. Her continuing depression is a realistic reaction to everything that's happened to her over the last several years, but it is, alas, quite boring to watch. After being returned unwillingly to life, Buffy isolates herself from her friends, ignores her sister, and in an attempt to jump-start her feelings, initiates a torrid affair with Spike. She is so ashamed of herself for doing so that she keeps it a secret, and projects her own self-loathing onto Spike, using him as an object upon which to vent her rage at being alive, and her anger at her friends. Spike, who still loves her throughout all this, is reduced over the course of the season to a desperate, broken man......

Apparently the ME writers were surprised at how unsympathetic many viewers found Buffy this season, but it was inevitable: by making Buffy so completely isolated emotionally, they wrote themselves into a corner where even those viewers who remained sympathetic had to guess at what was going on inside Buffy's black box of a head and heart. In some ways, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy came off as a ploy to make Buffy more sympathetic by making her a victim, and to punish those foolish fans who persisted in believing Spike really had changed--see! Evil! We told ya! Eeeeevil! In light of it, were we supposed to consider that her abominable treatment of him all year is retroactively justified? Sorry; I don't. Buffy didn't deserve to be raped; no one does. Spike was bad and wrong to do it, and deserves every bit of misery his shiny new conscience visits upon him.

But neither did Spike deserve to be beaten nearly to death and left to fry in the sun. Buffy's continued refusal to take any responsibility for the fact that she initiated the relationship with Spike, and continued it of her own free will, several times over his protests, and on at least one occasion did something at least as bad to him as the rape without showing a flicker of remorse for it, is hardly calculated to win my respect. It originally appeared that Buffy's breakdown at the end of Dead Things meant that she understood that she had done Spike wrong. In light of the fact that she continued to treat Spike like an object afterwards, it seems more likely that the breakdown was all about Buffy's shame at having lowered herself to sleep with a thing, rather than guilt over having beaten someone who loved her within an inch of his unlife. Just as her eventual breakup with Spike was more about her shame at being the sort of person who'd use a thing to get her rocks off, rather than any concern that Spike was being harmed by the relationship.

(All Quotes come From "Barb's end-of-season review-cum-letter to ME" by Barb Cummings)


So? What do you guys think?! Let's get a Season Six discussion going! =D
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
I agree with everything written here. Anya was the least annoying part of season 6. I just watched it for a 2nd time (finished 2 nights ago) and Buffy and Xander annoyed me even worse this time than they did the first time. Sadly, Xander lost me forever in this season and never got me back, which is sad because I loved him so much the first few seasons.
 
Honestly the one indefensible thing ive always found is spike. I get what joss was trying to do,trying to make you believe hes still a monster but. Eh. I think its awful writing. lets go back to even season 2 of buffy. Season 2 spikes the big bad,they give him drusilia to go interesting places with what if a vampire loves someone yadda yada. Anyway. misdirection,The real villian of that season angelus is the scourge. Hes not motivated by a desire of food,or gain. Hes not motivated by religiouisity. He doesnt care about anything except for hurting people. He's got a world destroying nihilism that well...comes the closest to actually destroying the world. He's sort of the king of vampires,maybe the most evil thing in the buffy universe. He like the joker is much less a person than an abstract of chaos and destruction. So of course he personally destroys every single thing around him being a destructive force. One of the things that they build up to the point where you want to see him kick his ass is how he even destroys spikes life. And im sorry,I felt sorry for the guy. I couldnt help it. Then you bring him back as an amoral character but a comedic relief one and well,if you dont want people to like him...why make him funny? basically spike continually gets humilated throughout the series. how in the hell did they expect people would hate him? i mean season six pretty much coinsists of spike getting used abused and degraded over and over again. You give him a sympathetic backstory,you put him in not one but TWO relationships where hes treated horribly,have him be constantly undermined and neutured by everyone from the us military to the scoobys and you expect us not to feel sorry for the guy? I cant really hate the guy who says"I know im a monster but you treat me like a man". and maybe that doesnt excuse some of what spikes done. But jesus. having him attempt to rape buffy made no sense to me. its a nonsensical moment that just seemed so tacked on. yeah the scenes well acted,and otherwise from that one scene the episode seeing red is one of my favorite of the season..But it was such a cheap way to get you to hate him. i guess its a success in the sense it pissed me off,but not in the way they intended. I know there was really no good way to get spike from point a to a soul. But to be fair,they gave him such a soul already. Why take it away from him in one moment? I always thought buffy and writing in general is about character devolpment,Not regression.
 
T
thevikingsgirl
The AR was a total plot device, and I hate it. They could have done that in another way that would have fit the characters more.
Honestly the one indefensible thing ive always found is spike. I get what joss was trying to do,trying to make you believe hes still a monster but. Eh. I think its awful writing. lets go back to even season 2 of buffy. Season 2 spikes the big bad,they give him drusilia to go interesting places with what if a vampire loves someone yadda yada. Anyway. misdirection,The real villian of that season angelus is the scourge. Hes not motivated by a desire of food,or gain. Hes not motivated by religiouisity. He doesnt care about anything except for hurting people. He's got a world destroying nihilism that well...comes the closest to actually destroying the world. He's sort of the king of vampires,maybe the most evil thing in the buffy universe. He like the joker is much less a person than an abstract of chaos and destruction. So of course he personally destroys every single thing around him being a destructive force. One of the things that they build up to the point where you want to see him kick his ass is how he even destroys spikes life. And im sorry,I felt sorry for the guy. I couldnt help it. Then you bring him back as an amoral character but a comedic relief one and well,if you dont want people to like him...why make him funny? basically spike continually gets humilated throughout the series. how in the hell did they expect people would hate him? i mean season six pretty much coinsists of spike getting used abused and degraded over and over again. You give him a sympathetic backstory,you put him in not one but TWO relationships where hes treated horribly,have him be constantly undermined and neutured by everyone from the us military to the scoobys and you expect us not to feel sorry for the guy? I cant really hate the guy who says"I know im a monster but you treat me like a man". and maybe that doesnt excuse some of what spikes done. But jesus. having him attempt to rape buffy made no sense to me. its a nonsensical moment that just seemed so tacked on. yeah the scenes well acted,and otherwise from that one scene the episode seeing red is one of my favorite of the season..But it was such a cheap way to get you to hate him. i guess its a success in the sense it pissed me off,but not in the way they intended. I know there was really no good way to get spike from point a to a soul. But to be fair,they gave him such a soul already. Why take it away from him in one moment? I always thought buffy and writing in general is about character devolpment,Not regression.

Great post content-wise, although a bit hard to read due to the lack of paragraphs. 🙂

You're right about the rape scene in 'Seeing Red.' It was bad writing. Yet, could you think of anything worse that Spike could have done? He did the unthinkable; tried to hurt the woman he claimed he'd loved for years. The writers had to have the already humanized Spike do something so bad it would warrant him being the first ever vampire in the 'verse to actively seek out a soul. It was terrible, and the scene angers me still, but I understand it's overall purpose.
 
And im sorry,I felt sorry for the guy. I couldnt help it. Then you bring him back as an amoral character but a comedic relief one and well,if you dont want people to like him...why make him funny? basically spike continually gets humilated throughout the series. how in the hell did they expect people would hate him? i mean season six pretty much coinsists of spike getting used abused and degraded over and over again. You give him a sympathetic backstory,you put him in not one but TWO relationships where hes treated horribly,have him be constantly undermined and neutured by everyone from the us military to the scoobys and you expect us not to feel sorry for the guy? I cant really hate the guy who says"I know im a monster but you treat me like a man".

That is exactly how I feel about Spike. I've read interviews where the writers have said they didn't expect the audience to react the way they did to Spike, but look at what they gave us. As you said, he's funny, which is always a likeable thing. On top of that, he was a very sympathetic character. Angelus was a jerk to him, Dru was unfaithful, he was treated poorly by almost everyone he ever knew, etc, etc. And when he tried to become part of the Scooby gang, they never really let him in. I'm not saying they should have, but it made him an outsider to the outsiders. His loneliness was always palpable to me, and it made him extremely relatable.

By this point most of the Scoobies had found their strength and they weren't "awkward high school geeks" anymore. They had family and love in each other, but Spike never did. And it was so clear to me that he always desperately wanted it. So when I see scenes where the Scoobies tell Spike he isn't a part of them or even liked by them, I can't help it. I just sympathize.


But jesus. having him attempt to rape buffy made no sense to me. its a nonsensical moment that just seemed so tacked on. yeah the scenes well acted,and otherwise from that one scene the episode seeing red is one of my favorite of the season..But it was such a cheap way to get you to hate him. i guess its a success in the sense it pissed me off,but not in the way they intended. I know there was really no good way to get spike from point a to a soul. But to be fair,they gave him such a soul already. Why take it away from him in one moment? I always thought buffy and writing in general is about character devolpment,Not regression.

Yes! I so agree. The attempted rape was just forced and set-up, with Buffy suddenly being too injured to defend herself and yet marching off in almost the next scene. It just felt like such a blatant ploy to get people to believe that Spike couldn't be good without a soul.

Great post!

It was terrible, and the scene angers me still, but I understand it's overall purpose.

I guess my problem is that I don't really like its overall purpose. Or maybe I can concede that a wake-up call was necessary, but I hated that it was rape. For one, they set it up so Buffy forgave her would-be rapist a season later. If you take away canon and souls and vampires, you get a victim who forgives her attacker, and that's a terrible message. For another it... well, it's rape. I can't even imagine wanting to defend that kind of thing, and here my favorite character was trying to do that to the woman he loves! I just... gah. I cannot stand it, and I have never watched that scene again. I barely even watch the episode.
 
T
thevikingsgirl
[No message]
Great post content-wise, although a bit hard to read due to the lack of paragraphs. 🙂

You're right about the rape scene in 'Seeing Red.' It was bad writing. Yet, could you think of anything worse that Spike could have done? He did the unthinkable; tried to hurt the woman he claimed he'd loved for years. The writers had to have the already humanized Spike do something so bad it would warrant him being the first ever vampire in the 'verse to actively seek out a soul. It was terrible, and the scene angers me still, but I understand it's overall purpose.

Ok sorry,I tend to write alot at one time and dont tend to edit. But,I agree in theory but. Lets play hypothetical here. If the scene fully succeeds,people wont ever be able to forgive spike. Meh rape is the worst of the worst,and you want people to give a reason to care about him when he comes back. Having him do the worst thing he can possibly do doesnt cause that. Luckily,because spike is so likable and the scene was so out of character some people forgave him. But i know people who literally think that one moment ruined the character. and no,I dont know what i would of done. I probably would of gone for something cheap or lame like they did,because its a huuuuuuge writing hole to make a character that likable be well,horrible. But at the end of the day,they almost created a no win. if he gets his soul back,and comes back into buffys life,he still tried to rape her. And supporting that is awful. I agree that he needed to do something maybe drastic,but not that drastic. I just hate it was rape. Theres maybe not a GOOD way to do it. But that was maybe the worst way they could of done it.
 
K
Kelsey
[No message]
I am totally sympathetic towards spike. He's always been somewhat MORE than an ordinary vampire since the start. Hes an undeniable anomaly. Even breaks down and comes within inches of bursting out and crying over everything.
what everybody seems to overlook about the rape scene is... well... he and Buffy's entire relationship. He loves her even without a soul and she treats him like crap for a good amount of time. If you look back on there relationship, the one and only way he ever seems to get any return from her is not by loving her, but by violence. There relationship is sick and beautifully twisted. They both love violence. violence is what opens buffy up to the (rather one-sided) affair. He may have inadvertently tried to rape her but, to spike, it had to seem like the normal way of things. The only difference is this time she didnt fight back. Then when he realized what was happening it obviously tore him up. I'm not saying he was in the right. He was way wrong. I am, however, saying his intentions were not to rape her. He was confused and Buffy had been taking him through the loop like mad. All things considered, this whole scenario was complete and utter nonsense
 
T
thevikingsgirl
Absolutely. When they were together rooms got destroyed, they ended up bruised and battered. It was how things were with them.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great post. I completely agree. Very well said.
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
My two main disagreements with the opening quotes are these:

Firstly, Willow's addiction. I think it was very well handled, and there was no shark jumping involved at all. Addiction, probably any addiction, is about being in control. Whatever your drug of choice is, you will take it in order to feel in control (most of the time, to control some aspect of your emotional state you feel powerless over otherwise - anxiety and depression being the most common), and you end up sooner or later losing the bit of control you had over your life to the very thing that you used to try and gain more control. I think that was perfectly portrayed in Willow's arc in S6.

Second, "that scene" in Seeing Red. I don't think it ruined Spike's character, I don't think it's out of nowhere, and least of all I think it's a bad example to have Buffy coming to forgive him for it in S7. While I do think rape is worse than murder, I hesitate to call Spike a rapist regarding that scene. (And yes I know that Spike has more than probably been a rapist in the truest and vilest sense of the word in his past during the Fanged Four/Sprusilla days.) I said it before and I'll say it again - Buffy is not the victim here. It's not some evil guy attacking a woman out of nowhere, it's the very logical result of a long, messed up, dysfunctional relationship for which Buffy bears 50% of responsibility. With all her behavior to Spike over the season, she practically groomed him to relate to her through sex (with violent foreplay) and not really to think "no means no" (see Gone!). Seriously, I would have found it a far worse example (and unworthy of a heroine standing for female empowerment) if in S7 Buffy had "played victim" to Spike and continued to act all outraged. (At the same time, I'm happy about the wonderful reaction moment in "Beneath You" - Buffy freezing up and shirking away from the slightest touch of Spike at the hole in the ground. Perfect acting, and perfectly realistic!) By forgiving him she took her share of responsibility for what happened; that is what a good, strong, and powerful role model should do.
 
B
BillyidolwannaB
Totally agree, especially about the Willows addiction part.
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
My two main disagreements with the opening quotes are these:

Firstly, Willow's addiction. I think it was very well handled, and there was no shark jumping involved at all. Addiction, probably any addiction, is about being in control. Whatever your drug of choice is, you will take it in order to feel in control (most of the time, to control some aspect of your emotional state you feel powerless over otherwise - anxiety and depression being the most common), and you end up sooner or later losing the bit of control you had over your life to the very thing that you used to try and gain more control. I think that was perfectly portrayed in Willow's arc in S6.

Second, "that scene" in Seeing Red. I don't think it ruined Spike's character, I don't think it's out of nowhere, and least of all I think it's a bad example to have Buffy coming to forgive him for it in S7. While I do think rape is worse than murder, I hesitate to call Spike a rapist regarding that scene. (And yes I know that Spike has more than probably been a rapist in the truest and vilest sense of the word in his past during the Fanged Four/Sprusilla days.) I said it before and I'll say it again - Buffy is not the victim here. It's not some evil guy attacking a woman out of nowhere, it's the very logical result of a long, messed up, dysfunctional relationship for which Buffy bears 50% of responsibility. With all her behavior to Spike over the season, she practically groomed him to relate to her through sex (with violent foreplay) and not really to think "no means no" (see Gone!). Seriously, I would have found it a far worse example (and unworthy of a heroine standing for female empowerment) if in S7 Buffy had "played victim" to Spike and continued to act all outraged. (At the same time, I'm happy about the wonderful reaction moment in "Beneath You" - Buffy freezing up and shirking away from the slightest touch of Spike at the hole in the ground. Perfect acting, and perfectly realistic!) By forgiving him she took her share of responsibility for what happened; that is what a good, strong, and powerful role model should do.

Damn. You said it better than I could...
 
My two main disagreements with the opening quotes are these:

Firstly, Willow's addiction. I think it was very well handled, and there was no shark jumping involved at all. Addiction, probably any addiction, is about being in control. Whatever your drug of choice is, you will take it in order to feel in control (most of the time, to control some aspect of your emotional state you feel powerless over otherwise - anxiety and depression being the most common), and you end up sooner or later losing the bit of control you had over your life to the very thing that you used to try and gain more control. I think that was perfectly portrayed in Willow's arc in S6.

Second, "that scene" in Seeing Red. I don't think it ruined Spike's character, I don't think it's out of nowhere, and least of all I think it's a bad example to have Buffy coming to forgive him for it in S7. While I do think rape is worse than murder, I hesitate to call Spike a rapist regarding that scene. (And yes I know that Spike has more than probably been a rapist in the truest and vilest sense of the word in his past during the Fanged Four/Sprusilla days.) I said it before and I'll say it again - Buffy is not the victim here. It's not some evil guy attacking a woman out of nowhere, it's the very logical result of a long, messed up, dysfunctional relationship for which Buffy bears 50% of responsibility. With all her behavior to Spike over the season, she practically groomed him to relate to her through sex (with violent foreplay) and not really to think "no means no" (see Gone!). Seriously, I would have found it a far worse example (and unworthy of a heroine standing for female empowerment) if in S7 Buffy had "played victim" to Spike and continued to act all outraged. (At the same time, I'm happy about the wonderful reaction moment in "Beneath You" - Buffy freezing up and shirking away from the slightest touch of Spike at the hole in the ground. Perfect acting, and perfectly realistic!) By forgiving him she took her share of responsibility for what happened; that is what a good, strong, and powerful role model should do.


I agree that taking drugs is about control, but I still wasn't completely happy with Willow's addiction-to-magic plotline. I feel it did become more about the magic being a drug than Willow craving to control those around her. And then I think it became more, "Willow needs to stop her addiction" than "Willow needs to stop thinking she knows best for everyone." I would understand if addiction to magic was part of the reason that Willow used it too much, and I certainly liked Rack and her working magic on people in the Bronze in that sense. But wiping Tara and her friends' memories in order to fix everything was something Willow needed to address within herself. It was not just about magic being her crack.

I like your defense against That Scene. I agree with what you said about it, but I still think to most people Buffy is the victim and Spike is the attacker. People like us, who obsess and think of the characters motives constantly can see that there's a lot more to the scene than just that, but unfortunately when you put attempted rape into the picture, it tends to take over everything else.
 
T
thevikingsgirl
Your banner rules!
My two main disagreements with the opening quotes are these:

Firstly, Willow's addiction. I think it was very well handled, and there was no shark jumping involved at all. Addiction, probably any addiction, is about being in control. Whatever your drug of choice is, you will take it in order to feel in control (most of the time, to control some aspect of your emotional state you feel powerless over otherwise - anxiety and depression being the most common), and you end up sooner or later losing the bit of control you had over your life to the very thing that you used to try and gain more control. I think that was perfectly portrayed in Willow's arc in S6.

Second, "that scene" in Seeing Red. I don't think it ruined Spike's character, I don't think it's out of nowhere, and least of all I think it's a bad example to have Buffy coming to forgive him for it in S7. While I do think rape is worse than murder, I hesitate to call Spike a rapist regarding that scene. (And yes I know that Spike has more than probably been a rapist in the truest and vilest sense of the word in his past during the Fanged Four/Sprusilla days.) I said it before and I'll say it again - Buffy is not the victim here. It's not some evil guy attacking a woman out of nowhere, it's the very logical result of a long, messed up, dysfunctional relationship for which Buffy bears 50% of responsibility. With all her behavior to Spike over the season, she practically groomed him to relate to her through sex (with violent foreplay) and not really to think "no means no" (see Gone!). Seriously, I would have found it a far worse example (and unworthy of a heroine standing for female empowerment) if in S7 Buffy had "played victim" to Spike and continued to act all outraged. (At the same time, I'm happy about the wonderful reaction moment in "Beneath You" - Buffy freezing up and shirking away from the slightest touch of Spike at the hole in the ground. Perfect acting, and perfectly realistic!) By forgiving him she took her share of responsibility for what happened; that is what a good, strong, and powerful role model should do.

Im okay with the magic addiction. Actually I think its logical,willow feels as if she needs to be in control,and she of course feels as if she has to make everyone happy. I buy that. I buy someone whos so concerned about losing control getting overtaken by something like that. Shes kinda always been obsessed with overachieving and that can definately breed addiction. But on the other hand,Willow knows what shes doing. I think the arguement the post is trying to make(Which by the way I dont agree that joss intended what they said he intended) is that willow is to blame as much as magic,if not more. I can agree with that to a certain degree being someone whos been down the addiction path,I had problems but nobody forced me to do it. Anyway. I dont think thats what joss was saying. I think the whole point of the season is that willow is equally to blame as well,think about when she takes dawn to rack,Shes to blame for the car crash. Not the magic. SHE made the choice. Her addiction is an extension of her own personality,insecurities and choice. Its not just because magic is the most powerful thing ever.
 
Kelsey, your whole post was fantastic, but in interest of time (I have 'Moonlight' playing in the background, so I'm slightly distracted) I choose to comment on your section regarding Spike only:

Spike's good actions this season were consistently dismissed as meaningless by both the other characters and the writers because they were 'selfishly motivated,' i.e. spurred by love for Buffy rather than by a commitment to good for good's sake. While there are legitimate points to this view--the most obvious being that if Spike only does good for love of Buffy, what happens if he stops loving Buffy?--whether Spike refrains from eating someone out of love or principle, I doubt the potential Happy Meal gives a damn. And in many cases one has to split the ethical hairs pretty fine to make all of Spike's actions out to be selfish, particularly his actions over the summer when Buffy was dead, so far as he knew, for good.

Firstly, it's nice to see someone on here who delves as much into Spike's character as I do. He is a fascinating one, isn't he?

My respect and admiration for Spike has never been diminished based on the fact that he is and has always been motivated by love. In fact, that very trait is one of the things I love most about him. Great things have been inspired by love. Some fans think he didn't have the capacity to love Buffy pre-soul, and that might very well be the case, but despite that, it was his feelings for her that inspired him to improve, to become a better man, and to put others (like Dawn) before himself. Loving her changed his very wiring.

Buffy has this amazing quality of affecting the men around her. She changes them and inspires them to be better people. In the case of Angel, it was her that brought him out of the gutter and into the light. Figuratively and literally. Without her, he wouldn't be a Champion, or a hero of the people; he'd still be sucking on rats blood and feeling sorry for himself. With Spike, she has a hand in releasing the Monster from the Man. Because of her, we now have two vampires with souls. Because of her, the world was saved, and Spike redeemed.

But this question raises a far more serious one, not about Spike, but about the rest of the Scooby gang. The Scoobs insist Spike is a monster, and fundamentally untrustworthy. Yet they are willing to exploit his love for Buffy and Dawn, and no less his unadmitted but deep-seated desire for companionship in general, in order to use him for muscle and (in Buffy's case) for sex. They then cut him off when they no longer needed him. It never seems to occur to them that this is less than admirable behavior on their part, and furthermore, is calculated to produce ever-worse behavior on Spike's part.

Great points. For them, or at least for Giles and Xander (Willow seemed to be indifferent or even affectionate to Spike at most points) Spike never ascended from the position he held in Season 1 upon his introduction; as a villain. For them, Spike was always a threat and a bother. Giles was clear in his disregard for how Buffy felt about Spike when he tried to get him killed. Xander has made it clear that he has no respect for Spike. Unfortunately, when it comes to these two, Spike can never win. He'll never be more to them then a monster.

Regardless, Spike doesn't need their acceptance, IMO. He's earned his redemption and hero status.

The highest measure of a hero is not in how she treats her friends, but in how she treats her fallen enemies. Buffy has an extremely poor track record in this regard. The greatest of heroes are those who have the vision to try and make a fallen enemy into an ally. Failing that, granting them a quick clean death, or keeping an eye on them and refraining from poking them with a stick is good. In Spike's case, the Scoobs have been all with the stick-poking, and they are just damned lucky that even as a monster, Spike's proven to be a better man than they are...

I'm not sure this is all a hero entitles. Buffy is a hero, no doubt. Spike is a fighter. I call him my little Vampire Chameleon. He can adapt to any situation. He can handle insult, hurt, pain, torture...and he still comes back swingin'. I think, deep down, Spike knows he's special. That's how he won the fight with Angel in "Destiny." Spike has made his mistakes, he's jumped the gun, gotten "bored" and executed the plan early. He's acted with his heart and not his head, and forgotten the "rules" at times. Yet, he's always been able to see the big picture. What's at stake. Perhaps Spike's insistence on acceptance from the gang never was that important to him. In the long run, what does it even matter, anyway?

This season Spike was subjected to emotional stress that would have caused many an ordinary human to snap and take an Uzi to the nearest McDonalds. He was used by the Scoobs, and used, abused, and discarded by Buffy. Spike's supposed to be torn by his inability to be either a monster or a man, but given the way things have played out this season, the writers failed to convince me that Spike can't be a man without a soul--only that he wasn't allowed to be. Instead of "It's impossible to be good without a soul," the lesson comes off more like "If you're trying to be good without a soul, and no one around you helps you and the woman you're madly in love with insists you're an evil worthless thing, then you will probably break like a twig."

The quality that made Spike special, as I think you pointed out somewhere in another thread, was his ability to be good without a soul. That's what made him special, an anomaly, an exception.

Self-improvement is a difficult path. Everyone needs support, I agree. Buffy told Spike time and time again that she "couldn't" love him because he wasn't a "man" he was a "monster." Yet, she wanted him still. For Buffy, a soul = humanity, and in her opinion, something worth loving.

Buffy was wrong. She refused to see the humanity that was inherent in Spike, left over from when he was sired. The humanity that Angelus taught him to repress and reject in favor of a morally void life that was free of all rules and responsibility. A vampire's life.

Buffy refused to admit she loved Spike because if she did, she would be admitting the humanity that existed in him. With that admittance, she'd have to allow herself to believe he could be good without a soul. She wasn't ready to do that.

Also, regarding the whole Willow Addiction storyline; I've always felt the analogy was heavy-handed. This isn't necessarily a terrible thing, it's definitely forgivable. I know Joss had intended for Willow to go Bad from the start.

Season 6 is my favorite season. I know I'm in the minority. Somewhere on here there's a whole essay on why this is, but to be honest, I'm too tired right now to elaborate.

Great post, Kelsey.
 
K
Kelsey
Fantastic post, Joan! Thanks for replying. And while I wish I could take credit for the quotes in my first post, they actually belong to the writer of the article I linked. I found them truthful and very insightful, which is why I posted them here.
T
thevikingsgirl
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Great points. For them, or at least for Giles and Xander (Willow seemed to be indifferent or even affectionate to Spike at most points) Spike never ascended from the position he held in Season 1 upon his introduction; as a villain. For them, Spike was always a threat and a bother. Giles was clear in his disregard for how Buffy felt about Spike when he tried to get him killed. Xander has made it clear that he has no respect for Spike. Unfortunately, when it comes to these two, Spike can never win. He'll never be more to them then a monster.

Very true. Although I'm not sure about now (Spike DID save the world) Giles and Xander definitely held tight to their prejudice. The article has such a great point though, about the Scoobies never realizing how much they used Spike. I remember watching that scene between Xander and Buffy after Xander finds out she's been sleeping with Spike, and being amazed at Xander's callousness. It was these lines that did it:

Buffy: You fought side by side with him when I was gone. You let him take care of Dawn--
Xander: But I never forgot what he really is.

I couldn't believe his attitude. I mean, this was a man(pire) who helped them all summer while Buffy was gone, and let's face it, they probably couldn't have done it without him. So Xander let Spike help out and watch Dawn, and basically used Spike's heartbreak and love for Buffy, but he "never forgot what Spike is"? I can't believe he didn't see how thoughtless and bigoted his actions were. This has to be my least favorite Xander season for that reason.


I'm not sure this is all a hero entitles. Buffy is a hero, no doubt.

Yeah, that was the only part of the review I wasn't really in agreement with. Not torturing your enemies is part of being a hero, but not really the measure.

Self-improvement is a difficult path. Everyone needs support, I agree. Buffy told Spike time and time again that she "couldn't" love him because he wasn't a "man" he was a "monster." Yet, she wanted him still. For Buffy, a soul = humanity, and in her opinion, something worth loving.

Buffy was wrong. She refused to see the humanity that was inherent in Spike, left over from when he was sired. The humanity that Angelus taught him to repress and reject in favor of a morally void life that was free of all rules and responsibility. A vampire's life.

Buffy refused to admit she loved Spike because if she did, she would be admitting the humanity that existed in him. With that admittance, she'd have to allow herself to believe he could be good without a soul. She wasn't ready to do that.


I agree completely. I don't think Buffy was ready to turn her back on all the rules she'd ever known, and accept that Spike still had humanity. And I also don't think she wanted to make a grey area in a world that was previously black and white. She couldn't accept that he could be good without a soul, because she had been taught so forcefully, both through lessons and life experience, that having a soul was everything.

I always wondered why she never thought about the humans who had souls but did evil things. Warren, for example, was well and truly evil, and he had a soul. And there's also neutral and good demons; do they have souls? Of course, a vampire is different because the demon takes over the host body, but still. There's so much more to "being good" or "being evil" than just having a soul.
 
Very true. Although I'm not sure about now (Spike DID save the world) Giles and Xander definitely held tight to their prejudice. The article has such a great point though, about the Scoobies never realizing how much they used Spike. I remember watching that scene between Xander and Buffy after Xander finds out she's been sleeping with Spike, and being amazed at Xander's callousness. It was these lines that did it:

Buffy: You fought side by side with him when I was gone. You let him take care of Dawn--
Xander: But I never forgot what he really is.

I couldn't believe his attitude. I mean, this was a man(pire) who helped them all summer while Buffy was gone, and let's face it, they probably couldn't have done it without him. So Xander let Spike help out and watch Dawn, and basically used Spike's heartbreak and love for Buffy, but he "never forgot what Spike is"? I can't believe he didn't see how thoughtless and bigoted his actions were. This has to be my least favorite Xander season for that reason.

True that. Xanders attitude when he finds about that Buffy was sleeping with Spike in 'Entropy' is hard to watch. When he says, "I'm not joking now. You let that evil, soulless thing touch you..." I always cringe. He's just so...disgusted. He even plays it as if he has been betrayed! I'm like, give me a break. Think about someone other then yourself for a change.
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
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What struck me about Xander's reaction to Buffy and Spike's relationship was how different it was from his reaction in Season 5. In "Intervention," Xander and Anya believe they see Spike and Buffy having sex in the graveyard, not knowing yet of the Buffybot. Xander later says to Buffy: "No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike is strong and mysterious and sort of compact, but well muscled."

Why is Season 5 Xander so mellow about it compared to Season 6? I understand that he's furious that it's Anya being the object of Spike's lust, but he had feelings for Buffy once upon a time, too--he loves and deeply respects her. So I would think that he would have been almost as angry back in Season 5.
 
What struck me about Xander's reaction to Buffy and Spike's relationship was how different it was from his reaction in Season 5. In "Intervention," Xander and Anya believe they see Spike and Buffy having sex in the graveyard, not knowing yet of the Buffybot. Xander later says to Buffy: "No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike is strong and mysterious and sort of compact, but well muscled."

Why is Season 5 Xander so mellow about it compared to Season 6? I understand that he's furious that it's Anya being the object of Spike's lust, but he had feelings for Buffy once upon a time, too--he loves and deeply respects her. So I would think that he would have been almost as angry back in Season 5.

This is a great observation. I never really thought about that.

It did seem OOC for Xander to act the way he did, considering his previous reaction to it, as you show. I guess they wanted to go for the highest drama possible - and they sure created it with 'Entropy.'
 
I'm sorry but I don't think the attempted rape was "out-of-nowhere" at all. He's a demon, without a soul. Besides that, look at the way he was treating Buffy. Like in the episode Dead Things -- the stuff he was saying to her on the balcony. It's not like he treated her above everything.

As a matter of fact, alot of the Spuffy sex scenes resemble the attempted rape scene, especially the balcony scene in Dead Things. Spike goes to her, starts feeling up on her or whatever you'd like to call it, and instead of just letting him do it to her like she did on the balcony, she tries to stop him. But, he doesn't stop.

I may be the only one who looks at it that way, but I really don't find it to be "out-of-nowhere". Yes, he helped her with Dawn and all of that stuff, but if you try to tell me he did nothing wrong to Buffy at all, it's an outright lie.
 
K
Kelsey
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I wouldn't say Buffy ever tried to stop him before the AR. She might have said "No, stop" half-heartedly, but if she'd really wanted him to stop she could have stopped him. I know the whole "no means no" thing, but is it usually that simple? She'd sent him enough mixed signals and rewarded him for pursuing her enough that I didn't think of anything before the bathroom scene as anything close to rape. The closest thing they had to rape before that scene was in Gone, and Spike was not the perp there.
 
I've come to realize that Bangel shippers don't like Season Six. That's okay, I know a lot of Spuffy shippers couldn't care less about Season Two.

That said, Season Six is my favorite, and I'm a Spuffy shipper. What that says, I don't know, but take it as it is.

I've gone on without end discussing Season Six, so I won't get much into it now. I just want to say that it has everything I could want from a season of a television show: humor, romance, angst, horror, comedy, MUSIC, etc.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Season 2 is awesome.
I've come to realize that Bangel shippers don't like Season Six. That's okay, I know a lot of Spuffy shippers couldn't care less about Season Two.
It's not S2, but S3 that is blergh! in that respect. Thankfully, with the Faith/Mayor arc and great overall quality of eps, the season more than makes up for making me wanna fast forward every time I see Buffy and Angel together in that season (and yes, that includes pretty much the whole of "Amends", which I find painfully lame an episode. 😛 ).
 
W
Willow-Tree
We share one mind lol
X
xaphania
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