I agree with The Chosen that it might be Echo. I have this theory that she's been self aware (when in her doll state) since Episode 2. When Boyd gave her the trigger words "Everything's going to be alright" it didn't work and she argued with him that everything wasn't going to be alright. That experience may have been traumatic enough to wake her up, which is why Alpha may have put her through that knowing she would kill Richard and be self aware. Ever since she gave Dominic that solute I've been wondering if she is fully self aware when not on an engagement. She may just be playing along because she doesn't want to escape the Dollhouse so much as bring it down. Just a theory.
Who's messing with Echo?
- Thread starter nerd4hire
- Start date
I really think it is Dewitt. Her concern for the actives strikes me as odd. He insistance that every other Dollhouse be informed of what happened to Sierra (regardless of how it would effect her) was very interesting. As is her interest in Echo. I kinda feel like after what happened with Alpha (which appears to have been horrendous) she has come around to a whole other way of thinking. I mean why not just kill Paul? Just get an active to do him in, they don't exist so it can't be traced. She is calling the shots and she wants him around cuz she knows he is key to bringing the place down.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Flannen
I tried to put this into words earlier but failed. You, however make its simples!
A
atticus
Guest
^ I also think it is Dewitt. She really is a hard character to like. I think she will try to bring down the dollhouse. She will become the hero of the piece. Her years of working there, will make her feel compassion for the dolls. While Claire who seems the most likeable, will be revealed as the villain. Playing everyone, Topher, Boyd, Victor, Sierra. While all along working with Alpha. That's my theory.
nerd4hire
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Want the dialogue from the reveal scene, to study for clues?
Echo as Mole
The Dollhouse is real. They know you're after them, and they're going to have you taken off the case. That's why they sent me.
Paul
Why are you telling me this?
Echo as Mole
We have a person inside. This person corrupted the imprint while the programmer wasn't looking. Added this parameter.
Paul
Is this the person that sent me the tapes and the picture?
Echo as Mole
No. This is their first communication. Security inside is very tight.
Paul
Where is it?
Echo as Mole
You can't know that. You're going about this the wrong way.
Paul
I have to take down the Dollhouse.
Echo as Mole
There are more than 20 Dollhouses in cities around the world. They have ties to every political power on the planet. You can not possibly stop them alone.
Paul
You're gonna help me?
Echo as Mole
The one who sent this message is.
Paul
Why?
Echo as Mole
The Dollhouse deals in fantasy. That is their business, but that is not their purpose.
Paul
What is?
Echo as Mole
We need you to find out. We'll contact you again. If possible with this same body, but you have let the dollhouse win. Make them back off. You have to trust me.
___
OK, so if one decides to believe all that, we know the mole isn't Topher, but can imprint actives. The mole works inside the Dollhouse, and he or she works for a group which may be good guys, or bad guys. He, or she is obligated to contact Paul again.
Has anybody else noticed that redheaded girl who keeps on turning up in the background? She's Dollhouse staff.
Echo as Mole
The Dollhouse is real. They know you're after them, and they're going to have you taken off the case. That's why they sent me.
Paul
Why are you telling me this?
Echo as Mole
We have a person inside. This person corrupted the imprint while the programmer wasn't looking. Added this parameter.
Paul
Is this the person that sent me the tapes and the picture?
Echo as Mole
No. This is their first communication. Security inside is very tight.
Paul
Where is it?
Echo as Mole
You can't know that. You're going about this the wrong way.
Paul
I have to take down the Dollhouse.
Echo as Mole
There are more than 20 Dollhouses in cities around the world. They have ties to every political power on the planet. You can not possibly stop them alone.
Paul
You're gonna help me?
Echo as Mole
The one who sent this message is.
Paul
Why?
Echo as Mole
The Dollhouse deals in fantasy. That is their business, but that is not their purpose.
Paul
What is?
Echo as Mole
We need you to find out. We'll contact you again. If possible with this same body, but you have let the dollhouse win. Make them back off. You have to trust me.
___
OK, so if one decides to believe all that, we know the mole isn't Topher, but can imprint actives. The mole works inside the Dollhouse, and he or she works for a group which may be good guys, or bad guys. He, or she is obligated to contact Paul again.
Has anybody else noticed that redheaded girl who keeps on turning up in the background? She's Dollhouse staff.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Over in the main thread for this episode, I said I don't think there's really a mole at all. It's just a lie designed to give Echo "cred" as a reliable informant for Ballard.
I can't believe they would send Echo on a mission like this and not monitor her conversation, so if she said anything the Dollhouse people didn't intend, they'd know about it. Yet afterwards they seemed to think everything had gone according to plan.
If there really is a mole... the only people I can think of with the technical know-how to tamper with an implanted personality would be Topher, Ivy, Alpha, or... one of the 20+ other tech gurus at the other Dollhouses. I don't think Adelle, Claire, Boyd, or the others would have the skills to do such a thing.
If Dominic is (as I suspect) working for Alpha, then he might have done it. He might have skills he's keeping a secret, or he might be a Doll programmed by Alpha with the skills to do this.
I can't believe they would send Echo on a mission like this and not monitor her conversation, so if she said anything the Dollhouse people didn't intend, they'd know about it. Yet afterwards they seemed to think everything had gone according to plan.
If there really is a mole... the only people I can think of with the technical know-how to tamper with an implanted personality would be Topher, Ivy, Alpha, or... one of the 20+ other tech gurus at the other Dollhouses. I don't think Adelle, Claire, Boyd, or the others would have the skills to do such a thing.
If Dominic is (as I suspect) working for Alpha, then he might have done it. He might have skills he's keeping a secret, or he might be a Doll programmed by Alpha with the skills to do this.
To lend a little more credence to the idea of it being Echo is that a)Alpha let her live and killed the rest of the actives so alpha either has a thing for echo or wanted to use her in some way b)Echo is becoming more and more self aware (as were told) so she must have had a change to her 'basic' imprint at some point, pehaps it is Alphas changes to echos basic state that are making her into somewhat of an anolomoly. c) She showed a strange reaction to 'are you ready?'
Im not saying it is echo but if you want to start crazy theories this early on, all the characters are going to be stretches. If I were to have my outlandish stretch of a thought, I would say its both Echo and Boyd have both been tasked by Alpha. In this case, Boyd worked on the distraction while Echo (a slightly modified double agent Echo from when Alpha first escaped) went to work on changing her own imprint to get the message out. Tag team double agents!
Im not saying it is echo but if you want to start crazy theories this early on, all the characters are going to be stretches. If I were to have my outlandish stretch of a thought, I would say its both Echo and Boyd have both been tasked by Alpha. In this case, Boyd worked on the distraction while Echo (a slightly modified double agent Echo from when Alpha first escaped) went to work on changing her own imprint to get the message out. Tag team double agents!
nerd4hire
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But again, If the Dollhouse created the mole imprint in Echo to feed Ballard false leads in the future, and get him chasing his tail, why would they give him true information dangerous to the whole international Dollhouse setup? They tell him there are multiple Dollhouses in many locations. This turns out to be true.
Also, why would Adelle keep the information from her head of security? Dominic has to ask Adelle if they are going to keep the sleeper agent monitoring Paul active. He does so in a way which suggests he has no knowledge of any plan to continue playing Paul in the future.
Andrew Crosset posted a theory on the other thread saying maybe Adelle was working a private scheme to create some leverage against what I'll call the senior partners should anything go wrong in the future, and she needs what Dominic calls an "exit strategy". That might make a little more sense, I guess. Don't warm to it myself though, because the plot device where the mole is real makes more sense from a writing standpoint. There's more places to go with it. They get flexibility for a second season.
Also, why would Adelle keep the information from her head of security? Dominic has to ask Adelle if they are going to keep the sleeper agent monitoring Paul active. He does so in a way which suggests he has no knowledge of any plan to continue playing Paul in the future.
Andrew Crosset posted a theory on the other thread saying maybe Adelle was working a private scheme to create some leverage against what I'll call the senior partners should anything go wrong in the future, and she needs what Dominic calls an "exit strategy". That might make a little more sense, I guess. Don't warm to it myself though, because the plot device where the mole is real makes more sense from a writing standpoint. There's more places to go with it. They get flexibility for a second season.
^^^^ theoretically, I think they may have given him that information about multiple houses to give him more tales to chase...in away.
This episode really dealt with fantasy and to some extent What drives Ballards fixation on echo and closing the dollhouse. This in theory could be an attempt to sway that fantasy into figuring out what dollhouses hiden agenda is, what it uses it's money for. There may in fact be no one on the inside, no hidden agenda except for making money, and Echo is just a tool to confuse him further, and/or to help lead the house to Alpha through Ballard (unknowingly).
At any rate, the higher ups know he won't give up even if he is no longer FBI.
I'm not to convinced this is the case with Echo being a total red herring, because a big old agenda seems like something that could be played out over many a season (if in fact the Dollhouse is the only real big bad, we can't have it destroyed in season one!)
However, if the Dollhouse existed only to make money, and a guy was closing in on them, why not give him multiple targets to spread him thin, as well as a distraction of finding out what they are really up to (short of just getting crazy rich) and how Ballard could save much more than the actives, but the world or whatever from the sinister master plan.
that could really play to his fantasy of what he's looking for, and echo could be used to feed him totally wrong leads...his own engaugements in a sense, for free, to keep him off their back.
It certainly hasn't gotten any more clear. I like it keeps me guessing. 🙂
This episode really dealt with fantasy and to some extent What drives Ballards fixation on echo and closing the dollhouse. This in theory could be an attempt to sway that fantasy into figuring out what dollhouses hiden agenda is, what it uses it's money for. There may in fact be no one on the inside, no hidden agenda except for making money, and Echo is just a tool to confuse him further, and/or to help lead the house to Alpha through Ballard (unknowingly).
At any rate, the higher ups know he won't give up even if he is no longer FBI.
I'm not to convinced this is the case with Echo being a total red herring, because a big old agenda seems like something that could be played out over many a season (if in fact the Dollhouse is the only real big bad, we can't have it destroyed in season one!)
However, if the Dollhouse existed only to make money, and a guy was closing in on them, why not give him multiple targets to spread him thin, as well as a distraction of finding out what they are really up to (short of just getting crazy rich) and how Ballard could save much more than the actives, but the world or whatever from the sinister master plan.
that could really play to his fantasy of what he's looking for, and echo could be used to feed him totally wrong leads...his own engaugements in a sense, for free, to keep him off their back.
It certainly hasn't gotten any more clear. I like it keeps me guessing. 🙂
Even for an exit strategy, their has to be a better way around it.
Why their even bothering with any of this is beyond me. Heck, even staging a brutal mugging gone wrong wouldnt be too hard for the Dollhouse, especially if they know how paper-thin the rest of the fbi seem to think the 'dollhouse' is. Millions on sleeper actives and false 'snitching' actives just dont make any sense...other than thrilling action which I cant wait to see more of!!
nerd4hire
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Except there actually are multiple Dollhouses. Adelle tells Dominic to notify his counter-parts in the other houses concerning what happened to Sierra. It's not a false lead they give Ballard. It's true. The whole idea of a false lead is that it should be...well, false. I just don't get the strategy of giving your opponent truthful information which could damage your operation on a corporate level.
see your karma post on the other page.
The best way to decieve someone is to be seen as reliable. It's how double agents work. sacrifice a little information to gain confidence, an air of reliability, so you can completely shanigan em' latter.
On a releated note, why would the inside man use Echo again to contact ballard? How can they be sure this will even be possible unless they make the schedule...without the higher ups getting wind of it?
This seemed a one time shot with echoes handler out of the way, her sent after ballard, etc. etc.
The best way to decieve someone is to be seen as reliable. It's how double agents work. sacrifice a little information to gain confidence, an air of reliability, so you can completely shanigan em' latter.
On a releated note, why would the inside man use Echo again to contact ballard? How can they be sure this will even be possible unless they make the schedule...without the higher ups getting wind of it?
This seemed a one time shot with echoes handler out of the way, her sent after ballard, etc. etc.
nerd4hire
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Yes, the best lies have a little truth to them. At the same time though, there's secrets you prefer to keep.
Adelle expects Paul to continue investigating in spite of his suspension. She says so. So suppose he starts to investigate the international aspects of the Dollhouse. This would alert the corporate level of the Dollhouse. They would want to know how this agent discovered one of their biggest secrets. There's the possibility an FBI agent may now involve international agencies. This can only make things more difficult for Adelle. They would want to know how she screwed up so badly as to unleash this new problem on them. Is Paul's trust so important Adelle is going to risk all that. Did she even need to unload that nugget to gain Paul's trust? Hadn't the mole imprint already told Paul enough truth to get him interested?
Adelle expects Paul to continue investigating in spite of his suspension. She says so. So suppose he starts to investigate the international aspects of the Dollhouse. This would alert the corporate level of the Dollhouse. They would want to know how this agent discovered one of their biggest secrets. There's the possibility an FBI agent may now involve international agencies. This can only make things more difficult for Adelle. They would want to know how she screwed up so badly as to unleash this new problem on them. Is Paul's trust so important Adelle is going to risk all that. Did she even need to unload that nugget to gain Paul's trust? Hadn't the mole imprint already told Paul enough truth to get him interested?
The thing is he's dealing with 20 houses around the globe and he can't find the one he knew existed in the location that it likely was, with the clientel it keeps and a picture of one of its actives. He's also been told the organization is in with governments and he more or less can't shut them down, that seemed like a veiled threat to me.
When they talked of killing Ballard early on, Adelle also said to her security chief guy, "I think you greatly overestimate his abilities." or some such nonsense.
I'm suggesting that multiple house info could have been purposely leaked to spread his attention so it's not so focused on that one doll house chapter he knows so much (too much) about allready.
If Echo is under the control of the dollhouse and feeding him false intel, he's gone from looking from looking for a needle in a hay stack to looking for a needle in Kasas, with a metal detector that lies to him.
You said it yourself, actualy Adell did, he won't give up. So why not spread him as thin as possible and make it as difficult as possible? Especially when he knows too much about this one house allready.
I'm with you hoping that there is an inside guy, I'm just trying to see all angles and I just can't shoot down this possibility yet. I'm not saying it's correct, but i'm not saying it's impossible either.
When they talked of killing Ballard early on, Adelle also said to her security chief guy, "I think you greatly overestimate his abilities." or some such nonsense.
I'm suggesting that multiple house info could have been purposely leaked to spread his attention so it's not so focused on that one doll house chapter he knows so much (too much) about allready.
If Echo is under the control of the dollhouse and feeding him false intel, he's gone from looking from looking for a needle in a hay stack to looking for a needle in Kasas, with a metal detector that lies to him.
You said it yourself, actualy Adell did, he won't give up. So why not spread him as thin as possible and make it as difficult as possible? Especially when he knows too much about this one house allready.
I'm with you hoping that there is an inside guy, I'm just trying to see all angles and I just can't shoot down this possibility yet. I'm not saying it's correct, but i'm not saying it's impossible either.
nerd4hire
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Yes, Paul will keep looking. He will keep looking if it's a needle in a haystack, or a needle in Kansas. He's obsessed.
So if you're Paul, and the FBI won't listen, but you've just discovered an international conspiracy which according to the mole exists on all political levels what do you do? Does the possibility of contacting somebody like the CIA enter your mind? Even if you don't you're still going to investigate the international angle providing you believe what the mole told you.
At that point Dollhouse corporate starts to get concerned. Adelle and Dominic are always worried about what corporate's reaction might be. So why would Adelle give Ballard information which can lead him to them?
So if you're Paul, and the FBI won't listen, but you've just discovered an international conspiracy which according to the mole exists on all political levels what do you do? Does the possibility of contacting somebody like the CIA enter your mind? Even if you don't you're still going to investigate the international angle providing you believe what the mole told you.
At that point Dollhouse corporate starts to get concerned. Adelle and Dominic are always worried about what corporate's reaction might be. So why would Adelle give Ballard information which can lead him to them?
Thats assuming they did not give the order to 'multi task' him to begin with, to protect the house he allready knows more than alittle about, by spreading his attention.
He has been painted as a kook, a guy who's shot a cop. Who's obsessive compulsive about what many call an urban myth.
He has had to turn in his badge and clearance. I feel the house thinks it has severly damaged his reputaion and credibility with that act by echo when she made him shoot the cop. I don't think they expect his story to play, anymore, and if it starts too, they could probably remove him without much effort and conceal it with their political ties.
They can get a doll working with the ATF afterall!
The real mystery to me is why the endure him, they could have removed him and still can, with his girlfriend victor or echo. In stead they try to ruin him.
maybe madmen play to their scheme better than martyrs?
He has been painted as a kook, a guy who's shot a cop. Who's obsessive compulsive about what many call an urban myth.
He has had to turn in his badge and clearance. I feel the house thinks it has severly damaged his reputaion and credibility with that act by echo when she made him shoot the cop. I don't think they expect his story to play, anymore, and if it starts too, they could probably remove him without much effort and conceal it with their political ties.
They can get a doll working with the ATF afterall!
The real mystery to me is why the endure him, they could have removed him and still can, with his girlfriend victor or echo. In stead they try to ruin him.
maybe madmen play to their scheme better than martyrs?
nerd4hire
I used to ask that question about Mulder on X Files. Why not just through him off a bridge?
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
If Echo's "inside man" story is true and not misinformation, then I'm gonna need to know why Adelle, Dominic etc. weren't alarmed to hear her tell Ballard that.
Because no way would they let Echo carry out this job without audio surveillance, considering a) she's dealing with the one person in the world who's probably the most dangerous to Dollhouse security, except maybe Alpha; b) Adelle herself has a personal interest and great personal risk in this interaction; c) Echo's been acting unpredictably lately on jobs, and d) they've just come face to face with the fact that they have untrustworthy, perhaps rogue, elements within the walls of the Dollhouse itself.
So yeah... if she wasn't wearing a wire, somebody's being implausibly stupid here.
Because no way would they let Echo carry out this job without audio surveillance, considering a) she's dealing with the one person in the world who's probably the most dangerous to Dollhouse security, except maybe Alpha; b) Adelle herself has a personal interest and great personal risk in this interaction; c) Echo's been acting unpredictably lately on jobs, and d) they've just come face to face with the fact that they have untrustworthy, perhaps rogue, elements within the walls of the Dollhouse itself.
So yeah... if she wasn't wearing a wire, somebody's being implausibly stupid here.
nerd4hire
But if there really was a mole wouldn't he or she just turn the surveillance off?
I agreed with you nerd4hire, I think there's an inside man. Is there anything to suggest that they've used wires on the actives before? I know they have surveillance, but it tends to be biological surveillance, monitoring their heart rate and brain activity etc, so far this has been the only way that the handlers have realised something is wrong.
So if it isn't usual protocol to place a wire on them, they would have no need to think they would when they sent Echo to Paul, regardless of the fact he's who he is, because as far as they are concerned she has programmed to do and say what they designed. They would have had no way of realising that the imprint had been tampered with so they wouldn't take any extra measures, because when they have, what they believe, is complete control of every word that is said by programming I don't think they would have sent her in with a wire etc.
I DO like the idea that Adelle is behind it though. That intrigues me and her behaviour and attitude towards the dolls thus far has suggested that she does have some feelings of care towards them, particularly Echo. This is what I am holding out for! I was thinking Alpha at first but something makes me think that he's the guy sending Paul the pictures etc (not sure if this has been mentioned before - sorry if it has) but this appeared to be ruled out by the message given to Paul....sooo many questions and only several half logical answers 😀
So if it isn't usual protocol to place a wire on them, they would have no need to think they would when they sent Echo to Paul, regardless of the fact he's who he is, because as far as they are concerned she has programmed to do and say what they designed. They would have had no way of realising that the imprint had been tampered with so they wouldn't take any extra measures, because when they have, what they believe, is complete control of every word that is said by programming I don't think they would have sent her in with a wire etc.
I DO like the idea that Adelle is behind it though. That intrigues me and her behaviour and attitude towards the dolls thus far has suggested that she does have some feelings of care towards them, particularly Echo. This is what I am holding out for! I was thinking Alpha at first but something makes me think that he's the guy sending Paul the pictures etc (not sure if this has been mentioned before - sorry if it has) but this appeared to be ruled out by the message given to Paul....sooo many questions and only several half logical answers 😀
Fusions2
Stark Industries Employee
I have to agree on the Alpha part, I don't think it was him who added the extra imprint in to Echo. Then again it might have been if he was the one who wiped her clean in the bank heist. Somehow I still see there being an inside man it would make sense with how the episode played out and that when you saw Topher downloading the imprint file and he had to leave it as Boyd called him.
It would make sense then to suspect someone coming in and quickly tampering it. Not unless it was Topher in the first place, either way someone is on the inside. A part of me can't place Alpha doing the work this time round. It seems almost too clever even if he does have enough imprints in him to pull it off.
Oh I hate not knowing it just makes me want to know more, bring on episode 7 I say.
I'm totally with you on the not knowing!
You did just thrown a spanner in my works though (in the friendliest way possible, I'm sure 😉) I just figured it was Alpha who wiped her imprint in the vault - but only because Topher said it must have been. But NOW I'm not so sure....😀