Why Angel or Spike

[bespangeled]

Why does always seem like a choice has to be made between Spike or Angel?

I keep banging my head on the idea that you can only chose one or the other - Angel or Spike. But that's the message that keeps popping up here. If you say something nice about Spike, then you must be down on Angel. If you say something bad about Angel the you must be a Spike fan. If you say something nice about Angel, then you must be down on Spike If you say something bad about Spike the you must be a Angel fan fan.

I started as a rabid Spike fan - my first time through I was mesmerized by his arc and Marsters performance. So I sat down and rewatched the show trying to figure out how the hell that was done and taking copious notes.. (Not really creepy - I'm an author, so I do that when something really works for me. Market research.) I ended up still a Spike fan, but with a more realistic image of all the show, the characters, lessons and dynamics. I still love Spike - he's original. He has obnoxious down to an art form, and he doesn't care if you like him...except when he does. He likes to be underestimated - and he can screw up big time. He is weirdly honest at times and effectively manipulative in others. He is alert and savvy enough to be able to break the Scooby gang down in one afternoon. He's mercurial and he likes it that way - he's full of contradictions.

I also watched AtS twice - found that I loved it...and I had a new appreciation, affection - yeah, I fell for Angel. He's got those subtle and not so subtle mannerisms on the surface and he's wrestling against the darkness in himself so strongly below the surface. Yeah, he like to believe he's in charge, and he is the one in charge. He carries the heavy burdens, and each time he falters he gets back up. He wants to atone more than he wants redemption - he is in it for the right reasons. He's not only out there helping, at the start he's also learning how to live and work with humans - how to connect - a skill he has never needed. He's learning who he can be on his own. I love the moody, the angst, the wicked sense very dry humor, the mistakes, pain, strength. There's someone still young and unsure inside, and that's tough to play. Boreanaz really grew as actor - and I think it bears the best fruit during Angel.

Between them there's over a hundred years of knowing each other no matter how often or seldom they meet. There is Darla, and Dru, and a shared history. They're all relatives in the sense that they know each other much more deeply than anyone else can know them.

So it's never an either/or choice to to me. Saying Angel did something bad doesn't mean I am comparing him to Spike. nor does it make Spike better than Angel. It not an owie or a hero contest. I tend to support Spike here on the board since he's the one more often attacked, but defending him is not attacking Angel. When I talk about believing that the two are seldom judged by the same yardstick, I am not saying one is better than the other. I like their shiny spots and their warty spots.I do ship them together but I also love them apart. Bangels and Spuffies have some bad blood between them, yeah. But I don't see Buffy as a trophy and I don't care who or if she chooses. There are reasons to dislike actions and choices both of them make. So why does comparing the two seem like it always has to have a winner?

 

[Taake]

Hm... I suppose it's because they're so different (personalities) yet so similar (vampiric circumstances). And also yes, rivalry for Buffy. But there's also rivalry between them just naturally, even before they met her, almost like brothers competing with each other to get the upper hand. I think it's quite natural for people to pick a side and root for it... the show sets it up for us to constantly compare them after all. But you're right, it's not and "or" situation really. You can like them both.

I would wager to guess that most people don't because of the aforementioned differences that have drawn them to one of the charachters, for whatever reason, and will cause them to like one or the other slightly more.

I'm not saying everyone has a clear preference between the two, I just think most do, (even though one can appreciate the other as well) and they're therefor more invested in that character's journey/prone to understand and justify it/get defensive when challenged on this.

 

[thetopher]

In a word: Buffy.

It's really the shipping that makes it an either/or thing with these vampires. Sure there's the whole soul thing, and the vampire thing, and the who is the better S2 baddie thing, but in the end it comes down to the girl they both had/have a thing for.

You don't get often a 'which Watcher is better?' contest between Giles and Wesley, or a best slayer comparison between Buffy and Faith, and even when you do it's nowhere near as intense/heated in the discussing of it. It's the ship-thing that makes Spike/Angel so intensly devisive.

That's sad really because Angel got 5 years of his show away from Buffy, there's more to him than being defined as Buffy's 'one true love' or what-have-you. In fact you can argue that the focus on ships can damage the view of any character.
Buffy is much more than who she dates (she isn't Bella from 'Twilght' after all), as is Angel, as is Spike- or at least they all should be.

All romances have a beginning, a middle and an end, they have to or they just become stale/boring. But a lot of shippers don't accept when something is over and keep on and on with something, and all too often the writers indulge them/play with them.
I garantee if these two vampires were allowed to get on with thhe little things such as interesting plot or some actual character development a lot of heat would go out of all the fan/tribalism out there

 

[Skanky Vamp]

In a word: Buffy.

It's really the shipping that makes it an either/or thing with these vampires.

I dont know.. at least from my perspective Buffy doesn't enter into it.. it's strictly a character thing. 
So.. as I was getting coffee.. staring into space waiting for the cup to fill.. I thought about this thread and I think it all boils down to my morning coffee. Which vamper flavor do you like? Light & Smooth or Dark & Intense?

 

[The Bronze]

They occupy a lot of the same space in the Buffyverse. Big bad, champion, vampire, vampire with a soul, Buffy etc. Given all the similarities it's only natural to compare how they handle various situations. In most cases they're the only real bench mark for each other. If you end up preferring the aspects of one in most situations then I think you can end up with a more negative view of the other because of that.

There's also the shipping aspect as well. A lot of the heat does seem to stem from people wanting Buffy to be with one over the other and that leads to a lot of negativity. Then to follow on from that I think a lot of it now is external factors. When people have intense or negative interactions with fans of one or the other it tends to colour their view of the actual characters involved.

 

[Blaze]

I agree with thetopher, much of it is because of Buffy, or at least superficially it is. I don't know if it's related to that, but I'm a fan of both Angel and Spike, but neither a fan of Spuffy nor Bangel. That view point is pretty rare on the Buffyverse. In my opinion, both characters are actually way better when they are away from Buffy, especially Angel, whom I love way more on his own show. Overall, I do know a few people who like both characters, but they are rare, as you said.

 

[brinkster130]

It doesn't have to be that way, but it is more often than not. In some ways the show set it up since they are the two involved in a love triangle of sorts with the lead character. Like Taake said, it's sorta a rivalry with two very different characters.

I also think that fans really enforce this, you simply cannot have a conversation about one without the other being brought up. I guess their differences really work well with the tearing one down to build the other up sorta thing....and people get swept into the pick a side debate.

 

[janas]

Why does always seem like a choice has to be made between Spike or Angel?

For me it has never been a choice between Angel and Spike, but rather a choice between characters that I like, and characters that I do not like. Angel, Buffy and Connor are my favorite characters, the others characters come after them. Someone occupies an intermediate place, in a hypothetical list, and of course someone else comes last. Spike is definitely very down in my list, but also Willow and Cordelia, therefore he is in good company.
What I mean is that I don't love Spike because I love Angel. I don't love Spike simply because I don't love him! That's it!

 

[bespangeled]

It doesn't have to be that way, but it is more often than not. In some ways the show set it up since they are the two involved in a love triangle of sorts with the lead character. Like Taake said, it's sorta a rivalry with two very different characters.

I also think that fans really enforce this, you simply cannot have a conversation about one without the other being brought up. I guess their differences really work well with the tearing one down to build the other up sorta thing....and people get swept into the pick a side debate.

I can understand why that happens. I've stood up for Angel once or twice here - mostly it's been for Spike. People seem to assume that means I see no flaws in Spike. But what I like in both of them is the flaws - that's where the drama lies. It's about changing, reaching, learning and if that part is over then it's dead boring. You either growing or you are dead.

Then there are some fans who feel about one or the other the way I feel about Kennedy - the way some people feel about Dawn and/or Connor. I can listen and understand when someone who likes Kennedy, I can even understand why. And listening has opened my eyes to different ways of seeing her, but I fundamentally dislike her. Maybe next time I watch I won't though.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Yea I think it's mostly a shipping issue. There are some people that don't like Spike or Angel just because of the way they are though. I like them both, but after recently re watching Angel, I'd say I like him more right now but it changes. I grew up a Spike girl. Even though I don't like Spuffy and I love Bangel, I can separate the two from those ships and enjoy them just for who they are as characters. I love Angel with or without Buffy, and I love Spike despite of Spuffy. I think people just get attached to their characters.

 

[white avenger]

I prefer Spike because the first episode of the series that I ever saw was "Once More With Feeling," and thought that the two characters, Spike and Buffy, as played by James and Sarah, worked quite well together. (I actually thought at the time that the loud "hisssss" sound when they kissed was in my TV, not the collective sound of Bangels all over the world, stating their disapproval) Later, when I saw the earlier episodes in syndication, I never actually saw, and still don't, that same chemistry between Buffy and Angel. They reminded me too much of Romeo and Juliet, a story and idea that I personally have never liked.

I will say, however, that on his own show, I liked Angel quite well, and have always thought that Angel and Cordy worked together much better than Angel and Buffy ever did, though I'm not a huge Bangel shipper.

 

[thetopher]

When I first watched the show I liked them both in different ways. I'll admit I thought the Bangel romance was boring and that Spike was a funny addition to the show.
But as I grew older and watched the show again I appreciated the 'doomed, gothic, two lonely souls' dynamic of Bangel (Only in S2. In S3 Faith comes along as is far better suited to be Buffy's ying to her yang.) and found Spike's presence increasingly tiresome. Also I found Spuffy increasingly hard to stomach.

Now I like both vampires better away from Buffy, Angel is more interesting on his own show and Spike is a little more bearable. Angel's still my clear favourite but they still both benefit from having 'room to breath' away from Buffy and her orbit.
And, in the comics Angel is at least allowed to keep that independance which is why I still prefer to read his story. If Spike was allowed the same no doubt his character would improve imo.

 

[Buffonia96]

Yea I have to say I like them both in their own ways. I don't feel the need to pick one or the other because of their relationship with Buffy, it's far too hard anyway as they differ so much. In a way I do prefer Spike as a character probably because of his humour but they each have their merits. If I'm watching the early Buffy seasons I realise how much I really like Angel and his intensity and darkness when he loses his soul is incredible. If I watch Passion I almost get shivers during his speech and David manages to capture Angel's gentle and dark side so well. Where as if I'm watching later episodes with more Spike scenes I get pulled into his obnoxious manner and just his general witty lines. Their relationship with Buffy have been just so different as well but I suppose I can admit her relationship with Angel was healthier in the way she wasn't disgusted and conflicted within herself for falling for him. But either way give me Angel or Spike any day really and I'm happy. Great actors too.

 

[Aud]

I think the two shows themselves actually perpetuate the rivalry between the two characters through that trademark, self-deprecating, irreverent sense of humor. In episodes like "Tabula Rasa," we get Buffy saying something like, "A vampire with a soul?! How lame!" (not quoting verbatim, but that's the gist of it) after a memory-wiped Spike describes himself more or less as Angel. And on ATS, when Spike arrives in S5, they actually drag out this whole thing about how Spike is basically retreading all of Angel's steps. How can viewers not hear lines like that and automatically strike up comparisons between the two? It's not just that fans and shippers have kept this rivalry alive; it's that the shows actually set fans up to think of Angel and Spike this way.

And while I agree that the competition for Buffy's affections is a big part of it (and perhaps a big part of why fans tend to pit the two against each other), personally, a lot of the inevitable comparing happens because Angel and Spike share such similar circumstances. In fact, most of the time, when I find myself comparing the two, it has to do with the contradictory ways in which the show creators handled their respective vampire-with-a-soul stories. People are always talking about how it seems to defy the internal logic of the verse that Spike didn't seem to change much after he got his soul, contrasting this to Angel's tortured guilt. I count myself as one of those people.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

It's the shipping. The love triangle has been the worst thing to happen to this 'verse since its conception. Everyone knows it, but nobody wants their guy to lose, so it's a never ending cycle of bitterness that Joss is going to allow to continue because he is a troll/it sells/he's owned by the Marvel Machine now and just doesn't care anymore. And the people who don't give a crap either way or actively hate both vampires/relationships are SOL because it's all anyone talks about.

My biases should be pretty clear by now: Angel is one of my favorite characters, and the Buffy/Angel romance is my favorite relationship in the mythos, and I hate Spike with all my hate. The thing is, I can perfectly enjoy both Angel and Buffy as individual characters away from each other, because they are very interesting characters with plot arcs and relationships with other characters that are not dependent upon each other. I didn't miss Angel in BtVS Seasons 4-5, nor was I eager to see Buffy in AtS. I thought Buffy/Riley were cute, Buffy/Satsu is one of the few positive things I think came out of season 8, and I LOVE Angel/Darla. I would be fine (a little disappointed, but fine) if the writers just let Bangel end, as long as both characters were treated with the respect they deserve.

But the writers actively seem to want the fans to pick sides for the vampires, and it may be paranoid delusion on my part here, by Spike seems to be the horse they are backing. Angel (and the Bangel romance) is constantly belittled by Spike (and some of the writers, like Espenson, seem to be speaking their feelings through him), and the Spike/Spuffy fans latch onto it. Spike won his soul while Angel was cursed, Spike was a saint even without a soul, Spike saved the world, Spike was super special best friends with Dawn, Xander and the Scoobies suddenly love Spike while they still hate Angel, William was a better human than that evil bastard Liam, Spike remembers what color Buffy's eyes are while Angel doesn't, Spike dealt with his guilt in a healthier way, Spike doesn't have the curse to brood over, etc. It's like...just piss off already, you know? I was kind of invested in Angel's journey already, it kind of kills the enjoyment when Super Vampire with none of the conflicts waltzes in and becomes the new favorite and I'm expected to love him.

And that's just on my side. I'm sure many Spike fans could counter this by citing the ways Spike is slighted in favor of Angel and how it rubs them the wrong way. This kind of problem wasn't apparent in the writing when they set up Buffy/Riley or when they teased Angel with Kate, or during his fling with Nina and flirtiness with Gwen, which makes all the difference. But one vampire being chosen in favor of the other is an inevitable, big ass middle finger to the other, and that's where the conflict comes from.

 

[bespangeled]

I think the hating Spike comes first, and the finding reasons comes second. I like Spike - he's half my ship. But whatever the writers have done to make Spike part of a triangle, it's damn clear that Buffy is in love with Angel. So while you may see Spike as the favored one, I see Spike as the one who will never be good enough when compared to Angel.

Yes, Spike and Angel constantly belittle each other. By AtS they sound like an old married couple. The winning vs cursed has a lot more layers to me. Yes both vamps have always been different, and there is a big difference between a curse and a gift. But if it weren't for Angel then Spike wold never have asked for a soul, any more than he would ask for a holy water enema. Who would even dream such a thing was survivable? After years unable to feed, Spike was no longer a normal vamp, but he couldn't be a man. So he went to get a soul and found out he was even worse than he thought. Not sure about any special relationship with the Scoobs, though Dawn did threaten to set him on fire. 😀

William was a better human that Liam? No way to compare - seriously. William was a Victorian wuss, and Victorian times were straitlaced and pathologically modest. He's a rather weak, poncy, poof over all. Liam was a drunk and a wastrel but he enjoyed life - and enjoyed tormenting his father. I wouldn't want to go with either of them, but given one night I can't imagine anyone picking William. Spike did save the world but I think as much as he wanted to make sure Buffy lived, he also wanted to die.

Mainly it does seem to be the two ships that collide - and I suspect these are old wounds.. From the outside I don't see a competition. I thought that Angel had a great thing going with Cordelia, and even he was worried about how little he grieved for Buffy. Buffy and Riley never really had the chemistry but she told Angel she could trust him. They all went on to different relationships except for Spike, who had a tendency to fixate even when he was human.

The reason I like Spangel is both Spuffy and Bangel are moot points. Long after Buffy is dead, Spike and Angel will still have each other.

 

[Aud]

the writers actively seem to want the fans to pick sides for the vampires

I really agree with this. I think the writers actively set things up so that fans would pit one against the other, which is incredibly annoying. This was done not just around the whole Buffy issue, and not just by putting them on more or less parallel tracks (crummy human --> evil vampire --> ensouled vampire --> hero/champion/Buffy-lover), but also by consciously acknowledging these similarities throughout the series. I mean it's one thing for the shows to have this sort of meta, self-referential humor, but it's another thing entirely when the writers just seem to be disrespectful of their own shows and the characters they've built.

I would be fine (a little disappointed, but fine) if the writers just let Bangel end, as long as both characters were treated with the respect they deserve.

I think your point about treating the characters and past relationships with respect is really important. If the writers had been respectful, I think it would've been a lot easier for fans to follow suit as well.

it's a never ending cycle of bitterness that Joss is going to allow to continue because he is a troll/it sells/he's owned by the Marvel Machine now and just doesn't care anymore

And what's even sadder is how much it takes away from the actual protagonist. It's just like on True Blood. The love triangle stuff really helped sell the show, but it came at the expense of the clever metaphorical storytelling of the first season, and it also transformed a once-compelling heroine into a lame Mary Sue. I hate that the Bangel vs. Spuffy stuff has reduced one of the greatest female superheroes of all time into...a Mary Sue. 
bespangeled: Good points. But I do think that their different reactions to having souls make sense in the B-verse - Angel's soul was a curse inflicted on him while Spike's soul was a gift he fought for. Different demons and different circumstances.

And it's totally fine for you to have this opinion, and in fact your disagreement here illustrates my point beautifully, which was that there are points of contention between Angel and Spike fans that aren't just Buffy, Buffy, Buffy.

 

[bespangeled]

I love the points of contention between Spike and Angel. But I tend to see the Bangel Spuffy issues between them to be minor. Spike has said several times that he knows he never had a chance with Buffy. He wanted and didn't get her. Yes, you can spin any story you want about that but that's as far a canon goes (not a comic reader). I see Buffy as....the light that woke them both up in different ways.

Maybe because you have the hard memories you're just more attuned to it. And yes, I hate the thought of Buffy being a trophy for the best vamp. It's kinda why I want Buffy to escape the whole damn thing for at least a few years. I don't want her defined this way. One of my favorite Buffy scenes is when she tosses Riley and Angel against walls and threatens to put them in the hospital. Yes (fist pump!)

I like the parallel journey but I see it as Spike believing he hates Angel, and bitching loudly as he exactly follows in Angel's foot steps. Spike is in need of constant validation - Angel needs a fresh pair of eyes. They aren't friends necessarily but they do have each others backs.

 

[janas]

Spike is in need of constant validation - Angel needs a fresh pair of eyes.

So all they need is a Psychotherapist and a Eye care professional.
okay, I'm kidding 😛 ...and I understood what you meant 🙂

 

[Aud]

I love the points of contention between Spike and Angel. But I tend to see the Bangel Spuffy issues between them to be minor. Spike has said several times that he knows he never had a chance with Buffy. He wanted and didn't get her. Yes, you can spin any story you want about that but that's as far a canon goes (not a comic reader). I see Buffy as....the light that woke them both up in different ways.

Maybe because you have the hard memories you're just more attuned to it. And yes, I hate the thought of Buffy being a trophy for the best vamp. It's kinda why I want Buffy to escape the whole damn thing for at least a few years. I don't want her defined this way. One of my favorite Buffy scenes is when she tosses Riley and Angel against walls and threatens to put them in the hospital. Yes (fist pump!)

I like the parallel journey but I see it as Spike believing he hates Angel, and bitching loudly as he exactly follows in Angel's foot steps. Spike is in need of constant validation - Angel needs a fresh pair of eyes. They aren't friends necessarily but they do have each others backs.

Right. I was just trying to steer the discussion back to what the OP was asking: why is there such contention in discussions about Spike and Angel, rather than what exactly those points of contention are.