Question Why Bangel Doesn't Work For You?

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You're free to believe that. Unfortunately, Spike doesn't. And given Spike's insight and skill at ascertaining the feelings of others, if he doesn't believe her, why should I?



The sarcasm was appropriate, given Clemxen's cherrypicking. But I meant no offense. 🙂



Once was once too many.



It's never understandable or permissible to rape someone, regardless how Spike was treated.



Which further underlines the point: it was a self-destructive, violent relationship in which Buffy didn't give a damn about Spike whatsoever.



Pardon?

Yes and no. I personally hold Angelus accountable for his actions, just as I hold William the Bloody accountable for his. But Angel and (ensouled) Spike? No.

Yes, I'd agree that if Spike had tried to rape B when he was ensouled, it that would be a different story. But I'd like to remind you that Spike did not have a soul when he tried to rape Buffy. In fact, he felt so bad about what he did to her, he left to get one. 🙂 And yes, I will admit that I have a bias regarding Spike's character. I've always known this. I do try not to excuse the character's actions, but it is hard for me as me is my favorite character.
 
I don't like Bangel, because I think that they got together too fast, and Angel didn't seem like he was that into her, to me it seemed like he was with her because he knew she loved him and he didn't want hurt her feelings by saying he wasn't that into her.
 
It seemed too cheesy to me. I didn't like how Buffy always seemed to be trying to change herself to be perfect for Angel (like in Halloween) and the whole thing just seemed really immature. They didn't seem to really know each other, it seemed like "bang, we're in-love". I didn't really care for it. Sure it had some tender with some cheese moments, but I didn't really get them because it was just like "and how did you get so deeply in-love?" So yeah, I'll quit rambling...
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
Ok guys I think we have talked this section to death so I have three more questions for you, if you don't mind answering them 🙂

1. As a character, do you like Angel? Why?

2. What other ships do you align yourself to, if any? Why? (It doesn't have to be a Whedonverse ships...any at all).

3. Do you believe in fate? karma? a higher purpose? or do we make our own fate? Both?


Also, does anyone mind if I use some of their response in the article? I haven't included anything yet but I might need to later on...you will be totally credited of course 🙂
 
1. As a character, do you like Angel? Why?

Yes, I do like Angel as a character. He's done some bad things, a whole lot of bad things, and he's working as hard as he can to try to atone for at least some of them. He genuinely cares about the people he loves, often to the point of interfering when he really shouldn't, but his motives, even when he screws up, are good.

2. What other ships do you align yourself to, if any? Why? (It doesn't have to be a Whedonverse ships...any at all).

I always loved Duncam Macleod with Amanda in "Highlander." They seemed to be perfect foils to each other, much like Buffy and Spike in some ways. She is the perfect "naughty but nice" character, and he is the epitome of the hero, and often too serious.

3. Do you believe in fate? karma? a higher purpose? or do we make our own fate? Both?

I do believe in fate as concerned with the big things in our lives, but I also believe that we can tweak that fate by our own actions. (I also believe in guardian angels, but that's another story)
 
Kean
Kean
Thanks hun :)
When Buffy/Angel were a couple, it was all just about Buffy. One of the things that always annoyed me of the Buffy/Angel romance, was how little Buffy knew about Angel. It was always about Buffy, her problems, her hobbys and her dreams. Very rarely it was about Angel, and I doubt that Buffy knows little things about Angel. Does she knows that he loves hockey? cars? clothes? his hair? Is she aware that Angel hates dancing, can't sing but loves Mandy? Does she even know what Angel did in the 100 years before Sunnydale? Or what about his time in hell?


I always thought that Cordelia accepted Angel much more than Buffy (and Angel himself) did. Cordelia was always more like ; "You're a vampire, I know ... whatever, let's be best friends." Buffy and Angel are always trying to forget the vampire part or making a huge deal out of it. Both are dreaming of Angel being human and all.



That's another reason I like Angel/Cordy better.
 
Buffy hadn't really developed, as a person, while she was with Angel. And the whole relationship was too dramatic. Every time they were together it was a big issue or problem. They rarely had moments where they were just together and happy. They rarely talked or did something together.
It was overdone and melodramatic.
I Angel was too involved with all his being good and stuff. Buffy was too involved in slaying and school.

I think Buffy and Angel are great to watch, but i don't think it ever could've lasted. It was going no where and it was just like puppy love.
 
I've recently been doing a re-watch of Buffy and I'm now about half-way through season five and I think I've identified why Bangel doesn't work for me. I think it's because Bangel just "was" whereas Spuffy "developed". What I mean is from the minute Buffy meets Angel the atraction is acknowledged and they are inevitable. The interest in them as a couple is grown through a) the writers telling us, the audience, point blank how romantic their situation is and how much they love each other (without giving these developments much substance) and b) throwing obsticals in their way and making them on again/off again (particularly in season three). Spuffy on the otherhand develops from nothing and we as the viewer go on that journey with Buffy as it moves through various stages and incarnations. For me, the second works better; it gives Spuffy a depth that can't be found in Bangel, which I think, is true even if you come to the conclusion that she never did love Spike in a romantic way.
 
T
Tasha
nice speech, and it makes sense, nice one :)
I've recently been doing a re-watch of Buffy and I'm now about half-way through season five and I think I've identified why Bangel doesn't work for me. I think it's because Bangel just "was" whereas Spuffy "developed". What I mean is from the minute Buffy meets Angel the atraction is acknowledged and they are inevitable. The interest in them as a couple is grown through a) the writers telling us, the audience, point blank how romantic their situation is and how much they love each other (without giving these developments much substance) and b) throwing obsticals in their way and making them on again/off again (particularly in season three). Spuffy on the otherhand develops from nothing and we as the viewer go on that journey with Buffy as it moves through various stages and incarnations. For me, the second works better; it gives Spuffy a depth that can't be found in Bangel, which I think, is true even if you come to the conclusion that she never did love Spike in a romantic way.

Great points. Bangel was very contrived; everything was the end of the world with them. The intensity of it couldn't be sustained. There was just too much against them from the beginning. Angel's purpose was just too big to be Buffy's boyfriend. Bangel was the ultimate doomed love. The stuff good romance novels are made of. I don't think it was designed to last. That's the beauty and the sadness of it, right?
 
You see, I get this whole 'doomed from the start' thing, but I don't get how you can say that about Buffy/Angel, but not Buffy/Spike.

So, Bangel was doomed because Angel was a vampire. This is what we are given to understand while Angel is on BtVS. It isn't until he moves to LA that we begin to understand that Angel himself as large a destiny to fulfil as Buffy does, and its not until season two that we know about the curse. So in that sense, Spike is also a vampire and likely not to run as smoothly as a human relationship.

To me, Spike and Buffy were just as doomed from the start. Bufyf used to Spike to make herself feel something; to make herself feel bad not good about herself, which doesn't really bode well does it? Especially as this is the reason frequently given for the events in 'Seeing Red' so surely, that was doomed from the start too?

I also don't get the argument that Buffy and Angel never developed. Even as a hardcore Bangel I can admit that the Spuffy relationship developed. I just saw it developing it into a loving, solid friendship by the end of season seven, I think that by 'Chosen' they had moved past anything sexual/romantic. So why do a lot of Spuffy's 'stunt' the Bangel relationship?

Of course they developed. If they didn't then people wouldn't become invested in them. They met, slowly placed trust in one another, fell in love, had sex etc. They developed as many relationships do. And I think that by season 3, and certainly their meetings after Angel left show that they were about more than just love. Angel always came back to support her and she was always so appreciative of his care towards her in her times of need. There are many instances that I can think of, even back in season two, where you do see them 'talking' and 'doing things together.'

And, personally, if it wasn't built to last, then Angel and Buffy would not have continued to have contact with one another or care about what happens to each other after Angel left.
 
You're free to believe that. Unfortunately, Spike doesn't. And given Spike's insight and skill at ascertaining the feelings of others, if he doesn't believe her, why should I?



The sarcasm was appropriate, given Clemxen's cherrypicking. But I meant no offense. 🙂



Once was once too many.



It's never understandable or permissible to rape someone, regardless how Spike was treated.



Which further underlines the point: it was a self-destructive, violent relationship in which Buffy didn't give a damn about Spike whatsoever.



Pardon?

Yes and no. I personally hold Angelus accountable for his actions, just as I hold William the Bloody accountable for his. But Angel and (ensouled) Spike? No.

It was Clem, however, who tried to pin the blame of Angelus's misdeeds on Angel, mentioning that even without a soul, Spike never tried to kill any of Buffy's friends.

That, with all due respect to all parties, doesn't fly.

So, let me get this straight; you hold Angelus and William responsible for their deplorable actions? How do you justify seperating William and Spike? They are the same person! I remind you that Spike did not have a soul in 'Seeing Red', so why do you hold him responsible for what he did? Is it not a comparable situation with the Angelus and Drusilla one I mentioned? Both were vampires without a conscience. Sure, Spike exhibited some human emotions but let's not forget his true nature: vampire.
 
Personally, I think it all happened WAY to fast. It just seemed to be met, fell in love, blah blah blah, etc. Buffy was FIFTEEN, her brain didn't even stop developing until at LEAST season six. I'm not that big of a fan for young love, especially young love that dramatic. I don't think that Buffy really took the time to get to know Angel better, to become good friends, BEFORE diving into what, after Innocence, became quite a dangerous scene. Also, it seemed slightly rushed, and quite boring. I simply cannot stand to sit through the brooding and the mystery and, in my opinion, the ridiculousness. I don't think that Buffy had a very mature relationship with Angel, and that's probably because Buffy was so young and innocent. I also just prefer couples that have more history and background. :whistle: And, quite honestly, Bangel is a pedophile-ish relationship. Buffy's 15. Angel's 200- something. Even if you counted his age as how old he was when he was turned, he'd still be in his thirties, most likely. Which is slightly creepy, and makes me wonder what's going on in that brain of Angel's. 😀 Well, that's just my opinion, I hope I didn't offend anyone. :looking:
 
This is true.

Then again that could have been because he was spending far too much time trying to rape Buffy.

Or dealing with that pesky chip.

😉

Not to sound bossy, but will you please quit with the mean sarcasm. Now Gideon, I know you like Bangel alot, but this is a thread for people who don't like Bangel. After all, the title of this thread is called "Why Doesn't Bangel Work For You?" not "Spuffy vs Bangel," there's already a thread called that. And also, we are not talking about Spuffy, we are talking about our opinions on Bangel.
 
1. As a character, do you like Angel? Why?

I do in fact like Angel. Even though I think he's quite annoying when he's with Buffy. He's a very complex character with many levels, and he changes a LOT. He can be really dark, or quite light, and you never really know what he's gonna do.

2. What other ships do you align yourself to, if any? Why? (It doesn't have to be a Whedonverse ships...any at all).

Spuffy: To begin, I LOVE love/ hate relationships. There's just so much to imagine, they're so much more interesting, and just so deliciously juicy. 😀 Spuffy is the most intense love/ hate relationship I've ever known, which is why I love it so. It really takes everything to the next level. Spike and Buffy definitely knew each other better than anyone, and they were equals. They brought out the best in each other, and gave each other the strength they needed to go on and do good.

Tillow: Tillow is one of the, if not THE most beautiful relationship I know. It's real and true love, pain and simple. In a loving relationship, both people should always feel special. As shown in Hush, "I'm definitely nothing special." "No you are." they really make each other feel the way people in a good relationship should feel. Together they are stronger, and they both give themselves to the other. ("I am you know. Yours.")

Dangel: I love couples with history. And Dangel definitely has it. They know each other better than anyone ever will, and they have a great understanding and bond with each other. They've been through everything together, and they're the one couple that I can actually see being together for an eternity.

Spangel: There's something really interesting and funny about them. They're kind of like brothers, or perhaps father and son, which is slightly weird, but whatev. 😀 They're always bickering, but at the same time they're kinda friends, more like frenemies. They've apparently been "intimate" before, and they shared the only male/ male kiss on the show. Also, the scene in The Dark Knight showed that they definitely have some chemistry.

Sam/ Freddie (iCarly): Sam and Freddie are pretty much the "normal" version of Ron/ Hermione (Harry Potter). They're friends, but they're always bickering and making fun of each other. But, at the same, it's obvious that they both like each other. So yeah, another love/ hate 'ship. 😀

Lily/ James Potter (Harry Potter's parents): Lily and James are my FAVORITE book couple, and they're the ship that really turned me on to love/ hate ships. 😀 Lily and James are both Spuffy, Elizabeth/ Mr. Darcy, and Romeo and Juliet. Ok, by the way, what I'm about to say next is a HP spoiler so only read if you want to know, ok? When they first met, they instantly disliked each other, seeing as James quickly began taunting her current best friend. Him, an intelligent, popular, conceaited, rich, handsome troublemaker, just like Mr. Darcy. Her, an intellectual, pretty goody two shoes who was very strong and fiercely independent, just like Elizabeth. By their 5th year, James began thinking that Lily was pretty. So, one day, James and his best friend Sirius began bullying Lily's best friend, Severus Snape. Lily came over and told them to stop, and James ended up asking her out. Lily said she would never go out with a pig like him, and left in a huff. James was completely astounded; No girl had EVER turned him down before. Soon after, James decided he was completely in love with Lily, and began hitting on her constantly. She found him to be an arrogant prat, and always rejected his advances. Two years later, in 7th year, James backed off and began acting nicer around her. She agreed to date him, they fell in love, and a year later they were married. They had a kid, then a year later they were both killed. The end. 😀 Wow, I'm sorry, I must have made their entire relationship seem very dull. 🙂 It's quite odd though: Lily and James only had, like, 25 pages together. Most of what I think about them is from fan fiction. 😀 But anyway, those 'ships like Limes or Jily or whatever are so interesting and complex, there's no real way to prove anything.

Jack/ Rose (Titanic): This is my favorite 'ship, EVER. It's also the ONLY ship that I love that's one, young love, two, happened in two days, three, ISN'T love/ hate. There's something about this ship that's really perfect. Rose, a beautiful, intelligent girl, with a wealthy family and a rich fiancee. Then Jack, a handsome, fun, polite lower classman. I really wish that I had a guy like Jack. He treated Rose like she should've been treated, and she always felt better when she was with him. I'm sure that they really did love each other, even though thay only knew each other for 3 days. As Rose later said, Jack saved her in every way a person can be saved. When Rose wanted to jump off the boat, he came, and talked her out of it. When they were freezing to death in the water, he let her take the raft, even though he knew if he stayed in the water he'd die. He wanted the best for her, so he made her promise that she'd move on and have lots of children. Rose couldn't stand her life, he gave her a happier way of living. They both loved each other for who they were. At the same time, it's not some annoying sappy 'ship. In the beginning, they do have a slightly play- fighting relationship. ("I'm leaving now! Wait, I don't have to leave! This is my part of the ship, you leave!" "Oh ho, now look at who's being rude!" "Well you deserved it!") Which makes it all the more funny and realistic. I'm actually glad that Jack died, I think it provided a powerful message that he was willing to die for her. I love to imagine what they would've had if he lived, but since he died it makes their love all the more tragic and beautiful. But, I do imagine that later Rose would've found another boy, that acted a lot like Jack did. For the first time in years, she felt the way she had with Jack. But I know that Jack will always be in her heart. 🙂

Clary/ Jace (Mortal Instruments): This is a lot like the Lily/ James 'ship. When they first meet, they really don't like each other. Jace is a sexy demon fighter, the best and toughest of his age, and also a slightly sensitive, funny, arrogant, sarcastic, playful boy. Clary is a pretty, petite, independent, and strong girl, at first thought by them to be a "mundane", or a human. It is soon found out that Clary is a shadowhunter (half angel, half human) like them, and she is basically accepted into their little group of fighters. Clary and Jace were attracted to each other, but it soon turned into a love triangle when Clary realized that her best friend Simon thought he was in love with her. At the end of the book, they found out they were siblings. Dun, dun, dun. 😀 Cue to the next book. They both want each other, but since they think they're siblings they ultimately decided they can't be together. Many make- out sessions later, they realize they're not related and they start dating. The end. 😀 Haha, just kidding. I mean, that all happened, but I'm sure I completely ruined it by saying it all that way. They both changed a lot, and turned each other into better people. Of course, I could go on about things like that for forever, but the reality is I love awkward ships. 😀 Like, those awkward little moments of embarrassment where people are under a spell, making out, when the spell suddenly ends? (Something Blue) I LIVE for that kind of stuff. 😀

Piper/ Leo (Charmed): They are adorable together, and they have such great chemistry and awkward moments. They want to be together, but they really can't be.

Sorry for all of those. 😀 I'm sure that you didn't care about the play by play of practically every couple I like. 🙂

3. Do you believe in fate? karma? a higher purpose? or do we make our own fate? Both?

I believe that we make our own fate. It's nice to imagine some unseen "destiny", but that's pretty much the same as believing in God or not, a discussion we probably shouldn't get into. 🙂


Another reason I don't like Bangel: It's a lot like a father/ Daughter relationship. Also, the whole time they're crying about one thing or another, and they never were REALLY dating, and I don't remember how the heck they fell in love, because they only dated for a couple of months if I remember correctly. They're SO incredibly different, and they bring out the worst in each other. Literally, in many cases. They always seemed to be really far apart on an emotional level, and I just can't see a connection between them. There's way too much angst, and IMO it's incredibly boring and annoying to watch our main character sobbing with her lip stuck out defiantly, while Angel stares off indifferently to the horizon, looking remorseful. They don't seem to have anything a good relationship has, and I'm not sure when it changed from Buffy daydreaming about the tall, dark, and mysterious stranger named Angel to Buffy sleeping with Angel. There are many half truths and jealousy there, and they don't seem to respect each other, as shown when Angel told Buffy to get out of his town, after Buffy began bossing him around of course. In Halloween when Buffy tried to change herself to be perfect for Angel... she needn't have to. Like Tillow, in a good relationship you ALWAYS feel special just the way you are. Buffy never seemed to accept that Angel was who he was, not like Darla did. Everything just seemed so all over the place, none of it really made sense, and I'm not sure how it all happened since they never actually seemed happy together. Also, they never had any truly beautiful, romantic moments that I can remember. Not anything like Spuffy's Touched. And... That's all I can think of right now. 😀
 
Answers for Kean's questions:
Do I like Angel? Well yeah I do, but he can get on my nerves when he keeps guest starring in the later seasons of Buffy and comes out of the middle of nowhere to visit Buffy for some weird reason. I mean Bangel is okay and in the middle for me, but sometimes they happen at weird times.
Do I have a favorite ship? Yes, I do. My favorite ships are Cordy and Xander, and Darla and Angel, because they are cute and epic!
 
Answering dear Kean's questions first 🙂

1.Yeah I do like Angel. Him and Buffy are my favourite characters of the Whedonerse. I like Angel because he has evolved so much as a character. I know he suffered because of his guilt about Angelus' actions and for several years he didn't do anything about it,except of too much brooding. But Buffy inspired him to be a better person. To be a Champion ultimately. And when he moved in L.A i liked his interaction with all the other characters because he learned from them and they learned from him.

He is a very noble person who struggles for his soul every day. And although even as angel he has done dark deeds he tried to redeem himself. He is a person capable of ultimate love and sacrifice. He is a hero.

2. Other than Bangel...who IMO are an example of star-crossed lovers,soulmates and although they have tried to stay away from each other and give space...they can't avoid caring, loving and inspiring each other.

Well...Beren and Luthien from Silmarillion
Anakin and Padme from Star Wars
Aragorn and Arwen, Eowyn and Faramir
Booth and Brennan(they are made for each other...they
complement each other 😉 )
(I can't remember any more now... i can come back for more though lol)


3. This is a very interesting question. I do believe that we make our fates. I mean we are responsible for our actions. As human beings we have free will to choose. And then we can achieve things of course as far as our personal abilities can take us.But it's not all up to us. Yes I believe in God and the idea of His higher power protecting us,or showing us the way in difficult situations.
I believe that when we face difficult situations there is always a bright light in the darkness and we can find it.


And I have to say my opinion about what I have read. Many people here believe that Bangel was very sudden. That they met and suddenly fell in love and that's it. This show BtvS is obviously centered around the protagonist, Buffy. So it is logical,to me, that we didn't get to know much about Angel. He was gonna get his own show so we learned a lot about him later. And besides whenever Angel and Buffy get together we don't get to know all their conversations.We don't know how much Angel has told Buffy about himself. Buffy and Angel were soulmates and although they face huge obstacles(for one she was a VAMPIRE SLAYER and he was a VAMPIRE despite the fact he was ensouled) they love each other because one is inspiring another.

and spuffy...although i admit that there has been a great evolution to that relationship and they began from hate and they ended up in a friendship/trust relationship IMO they are still the most "all of a sudden" thing in the verse. The "i love you" means IMO i trust you and i love you as a friend.

True love was shown in the beginning of "Chosen".True love,being in love, soulamate love.
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
I like Booth/ Brennan too :)
Kean
Kean
Thanks honey :)
And I have to say my opinion about what I have read. Many people here believe that Bangel was very sudden. That they met and suddenly fell in love and that's it. This show BtvS is obviously centered around the protagonist, Buffy. So it is logical,to me, that we didn't get to know much about Angel. He was gonna get his own show so we learned a lot about him later. And besides whenever Angel and Buffy get together we don't get to know all their conversations.We don't know how much Angel has told Buffy about himself. Buffy and Angel were soulmates and although they face huge obstacles(for one she was a VAMPIRE SLAYER and he was a VAMPIRE despite the fact he was ensouled) they love each other because one is inspiring another.

... I'm very confused. :tongue2: I think that what you mean is, though on screen it seemed as though Buffy and Angel met, then a week later fell in love even though they barely had any conversations, and she knew like, nothing about Angel, but really they probably had lots of bonding moments that we just didn't see? If so, I see where you're coming from, but I think it's a bit of a stretch. 😀 Buffy herself said in Halloween that she really didn't know anything about Angel.

and spuffy...although i admit that there has been a great evolution to that relationship and they began from hate and they ended up in a friendship/trust relationship IMO they are still the most "all of a sudden" thing in the verse. The "i love you" means IMO i trust you and i love you as a friend.

Not to sound rude of course, but I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion...? All of the writers have said that Spike and Buffy have ALWAYS had sexual chemistry. We have had hundreds of hints telling us that Spike was in love with Buffy before even he realized it, like when he would call her cute or gorgeous, or in Who Are You when he was about to kiss her. In the beginning of S6, we saw Buffy coming to hang out with Spike because being round her friends reminded her of all they had done to her. Once Giles left, it was natural she would go to Spike for comfort, seeing as she said herself in Life Serial that "the only person I can stand to be around is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!" Their friendship in S7 was also to be expected, since Spike was now pretty much part of the gang, and living with her. Buffy's declaration of love at the end was ALSO to be expected, because how could she not love him? He had earned her love and trust easily, as shown in Touched when he gave her the strength and energy she needed. Also, throughout S7, they were a team. They always went patrolling and fighting together, and she told him she believed in him. It was totally to be expected. 😀


True love was shown in the beginning of "Chosen".True
love,being in love, soulamate love.

I disagree. 😀 I saw that as more of a friend thing than a lover thing, seeing as she basically told him that their love was over. She was still a young girls, and young girls SHOULDN'T settle down with a "true love". She's not ready yet.
 
M
Misty
Wow, great points.
I think Buffy fell in love with Angel before she even knew that he was a vampire. Although she seemed a little pissed off with him...you know him appearing to her only when there was danger.But she was attracted to him and not just because he was handsome. I know she was young and reasonably immature but the love they shared with Angel was of course a mature thing. And I don't wanna mention all the times that her love for him was more than a flirt/high school thing.

In the beginning she didn't know many things about him...which in my opinion is because of Angel. I mean maybe he wasn't too proud of his past, so he didn't say a lot about himself to her. But that's the thing about soulmate love.She loved him just the way he is. She didn't know a lot about him but maybe she could see his soul. Like he saw her heart the day she was called to be a Slayer.

You don't sound rude honey, don't worry 🙂. That is just my opinion. And i do believe that writers sometimes express weird opinions.Anyway...I never said that spuffy isn't a relationship of trust and deep understandment(in season 7 of course) but for me it was too sudden. I never thought that Spike was meant to be with Buffy. I think it all began with the chip...but that is just my opinion. A lot of factors should be considered when it comes to the spuffy relationship.


You think that Buffy was saying goodbye to Angel in "Chosen"? IMO she was giving him hope but she just asked him to wait. Wait until she is mature enough to settle down. That is not rejecting. The kiss they exchanged can not be characterised as "friendly".
Angel and Buffy could be friends but they ALWAYS would want much more... we saw that in season 3.Angel was ready to wear the pendant and sacrifice himself for her sake. She couldn't bear to see him dying for a second time.

And Buffy loves Spike.Yes.She does.That means he earned her trust. Trust is always a problem with Buffy's relationships. But this is not lovers' love in my opinion. In my mind...Buffy can trust Spike,she depends on him. He was there for her when noone understood her and noone knew what she going through after she came back from Heaven. I admire that. It's true friends' love.
 
Not to sound rude of course, but I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion...? All of the writers have said that Spike and Buffy have ALWAYS had sexual chemistry. We have had hundreds of hints telling us that Spike was in love with Buffy before even he realized it, like when he would call her cute or gorgeous, or in Who Are You when he was about to kiss her. In the beginning of S6, we saw Buffy coming to hang out with Spike because being round her friends reminded her of all they had done to her. Once Giles left, it was natural she would go to Spike for comfort, seeing as she said herself in Life Serial that "the only person I can stand to be around is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!" Their friendship in S7 was also to be expected, since Spike was now pretty much part of the gang, and living with her. Buffy's declaration of love at the end was ALSO to be expected, because how could she not love him? He had earned her love and trust easily, as shown in Touched when he gave her the strength and energy she needed. Also, throughout S7, they were a team. They always went patrolling and fighting together, and she told him she believed in him. It was totally to be expected. 😀

The fact there was sexual chemistry there doesn't necessarily mean that some people can't see this as being 'sudden'. Sexual chemistry and flirting does not always mean love/relationship.

And again for me, the writers saying it was there doesn't really ever make any difference to me. My big issue with the whole relationship is that I just went *sigh* 'Wow, you're recycling that story again, Joss?' and I still think I feel a bit disappointed to be honest. (I've just realised I got the threads confused and thought this was the Spuffy one! My bad.)

I disagree. 😀 I saw that as more of a friend thing than a lover thing, seeing as she basically told him that their love was over. She was still a young girls, and young girls SHOULDN'T settle down with a "true love". She's not ready yet.

Have to disagree here, wholeheartedly. I'm a young girl (well I'm not old) and I am perfectly capable, just as Buffy was, of making a decision to do that for myself. It's not up to anybody else to say she was ready yet or not. Sorry, but cynicism about younger people being in love or knowing the meaning of love really gets to me considering I've had to put up with it for the last five years 😉

**************

And even though Bangel totally works for me I wanted to answer the questions anyway! (sw)

1. Yup, I really like Angel's character. I love him for the way he deals with the fact he is pretty constantly conflicted. He's determined, loyal and true. He makes mistakes, sure, but he's not afraid to make them and that makes a true hero to me. He's selfless and he's looks far too sexy sitting by a fire reading a book...*swoon* 😉

2. Other 'ships? Lucas/Peyton; quite possibly my favourite relationship ever. I just can't get enough of it. In some ways it reminds me of B/A - Lucas and Peyton got over so much and so much crap got in their way but they always found each other again. They were young when they fell in love and that feeling never left them and that's sure as hell something I can relate too. And much like Buffy and Angel, I'm in love with them as individuals as well as together.

Syd/Vaughn in Alias. Kinda the same reasons as above really. And Vaughn is TOTALLY hot. Oh wait, so is Lucas, oh and Angel (hmm I see a pattern here...😛)

Ryan/Marissa - totally tragic but after everything that happened to them, there was always something there, it never really died. And they never got that 'happy ending' but it doesn't mean he loves her any less.

3. I like this question about fate. It's kind of a yes and no for me really. I don't think I met my partner by chance. Honestly, I think something intervened there, I think we're meant for each other, even if it ends up only being in friendship if that's the way the cookie crumbles but meeting him wasn't an accident. BUT I don't think that our whole relationship is fated and has already been mapped out. I think we were fated to meet, but our future (together and as individuals) is our own.

Nothing like a bit of cheesy rambling to wile away a Monday afternoon! 😀
 
Kean
Kean
I simply cannot give you enough karma for this post :)
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