Why do we talk about Spike's AR far more than Faith's?

[Robb Stark]

I got to thinking about this as another thread branched out. The following was a post by [MENTION=11786]Sweet J[/MENTION]:

In a manner of speaking, yes, by the very lack of any sort of comparable fan outrage to both of these events. Both incidences are pretty much shrugged off and there is a general attitude that its not as big a deal The thread counts discussing both are tiny in comparison to how often Spike raping is discussed, the only logical explanation being that as these were Female raping Male cases, they are therefore not as disgusting to many fans.
I find this lack of caring curious to say the least. Especially, in my opinion, that despite the gender reversal, when Faith raped Xander it is actually the far more consistent metaphor for males raping females- that is, rape by the physically stronger partner, and being suffocatingly unable to move because they are stronger. That is real, unimaginably frightening stuff.
Buffy on the other hand was far stronger than Spike, so I never even felt worried about her being capable of rebuffing Spike's advances. Buffy is not in any serious danger, and to me, watching her be set upon is much like how you would feel watching Arnold schwarzenegger being set upon, that is, not being in a gigantic amount of danger when a physically less capable woman or man attempts to force themselves on him.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but I did find it fairly interesting, and I didn't have a response. Why DON'T we talk about Faith's attempted rape nearly to the extent that we do Spike's? I'm not in any way interested in getting into a "which was worse" debate. That's got no answer and people just get choked.

But I do think the thread topic is a fair question. Physically, Xander WAS in far more danger than Buffy was. We discuss frequently about how the show didn't portray what Buffy went through at all and how horrible that is (and it is), but what happens to Xander isn't registered by anyone, beyond a passing comment by Angel, at all, and if anything, Faith pushes things just as far, if not farther, than Spike. Why ISN'T that raised?

So what is it? IS it just because Xander is a guy? I hope not, but I am having difficulty finding a reason. It's not something I've ever really thought about before.

 

[The Bronze]

[U@Robb Stark[/U]

So what is it? IS it just because Xander is a guy?

Yes I think so. The majority of the fanbase and forums appears to be female and I believe this is why there is a descrepency with how the 2 incidents are received and treated.

With Spike/Buffy all that is coming across to the viewers appears to be the visual of the small women and larger man. This strikes very close to home for people who have experienced something similar or it is a genuine real life fear. There then seems to be a need for this to be handled in a way that the viewer would like to see it handled in real life.

With Faith/Xander this is a far more foreign situation. I'd be surprised if many people have any connection to the visual case of smaller female attacks larger male. Similarly I don't think this is a great fear amongst men that it could happen to them. Therefore I think people are much happier to see this dealt with the same way as everything else in the show.

From my perspective I think the show was consistent with how it handled the incidents. I think you have to credit the characters as being more resilient than they perhaps would be in real life. The show doesn't show a great amount of either Buffy or Xander dealing with the aftermath but for me that's because they are both failed attacks. If the characters were deeply traumatised after every failed attack or if we had screen time for each character dealing with the fallout from every attack on them we'd never have anything else. I mean we don't see Buffy dealing with much after affects when she's drugged and almost sacrificed in Reptile Boy either.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Because everyone agrees Faith tried to rape Xander, whereas people try and justify Spikes actions.

 

[Kean]

1. There is no question as to what happened in that bedroom. It is accepted as fact that Faith sexually assaulted Xander and then tried to kill him.

2. We immediately accept that this is wrong and understand Xander did nothing wrong, that anything that went on before with he and Faith has no bearing on the situation in that room.

3. We immediately understand that Faith is a "bad guy." There is no discussion about what could have led her to do this.

4. She is punished within the story. Over the next season every choice Faith has made, and will make, come backs to haunt her and she pays for them all.

 

[white avenger]

Probably because the attempted rape in "Seeing Red" was intended to be, and if all of the controversy and continued, often heated, debate is any indicator, actually is, a much more significant event than Faith's attack on Xander. "Seeing Red" has been explained by Joss and others as being a pivotal point in Spike's development, the catalyst that finally initiated his determination to regain his soul. What happened between Faith and Xander didn't effect her in anything near that degree.

And while some here may disagree, trying to determine the reasons for Spike's actions and their consequences is in no way an attempt to justify them.

 

[EffyStonem]

While the show does treat Faith's actions as wrong and condemns her (which it doesn't quite achieve with Spike) I still find it disturbing that, once again, the victim and their trauma is left unexplored and unresolved.

Xander suffers an extremely brutal sexual assault at Faith's hands and yet he bounces back the next episode with no consequences and no thought to what he went through. This is wrong on so many levels and it's quite similar to Buffy's lack of repercussions from her sexual assault.

Joss and Co. never seem to think about the victim when they decide to write sexual assault and that is highly disturbing and suggests a lack of empathy and understanding when it comes to sexual assault. Really, the man should just steer clear of writing any kind of sexual violence as he has no clue how to deal with it sensitively and with thought to the victim as opposed to the perpetrator.

 

[VisionGirl]

I completely disagree that the assault on Xander was ignored because mostly women watch Buffy. In our society as a whole, male sexual assault is minimized & ignored. Personally I feel that it has a lot to do with both homophobia and misogyny.

http://m.sapac.umich.edu/article/53

 

[Blaze]

Personally I feel that it has a lot to do with both homophobia and misogyny.

This confused me, how does Xander's rape have something to do with homophobia or misogyny?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Because everyone agrees Faith tried to rape Xander, whereas people try and justify Spikes actions.

I'm certainly not in that category, but Robb Stark does have a point. Gender roles are meaningless here, ie most men are far physically stronger than women. The end result was Faith attempting to rape someone far weaker than herself; and Spike attempting to rape someone stronger than himself.

Looking at it through the lens of physical strength, Faith raping Xander was probably a lot closer to real life rape.

Xander suffers an extremely brutal sexual assault at Faith's hands and yet he bounces back the next episode with no consequences and no thought to what he went through.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the critique in this case.

It's clearly established that Xander's father was physically abusive, yet he's never given a scene dealing with it despite, what, 200 appearances? His only male friend from childhood was brutally murdered, and Xander never talks about that either.

Xander holds his pain inside, or is a sociopath--I think the former.

 

[SlayerPrincess]

Well when I saw both episodes I actually felt more scared for Xander then I did Buffy. Like others have said we know Xander can't fight off Faith. With the Buffy/Spike scene it was more like "Come on Buffy, I know your hurt but get him off you already."

 

[EffyStonem]

Strength has nothing to do with the Spuffy attempted rape. When someone sexually attacks you a myriad of things can prevent you from being able to fight back even if you are as strong or stronger than your attacker.

Sexual violence is extremely different to normal violence. It's less about the pain, the force and the strength and more about the psychological terror it evokes. Buffy may have been physically stronger than Spike but in a sexually violent situation she would react just like any other victim because she has not encountered that kind of violation before.

Rape victims can and do freeze, lose their strength in the moment, panic and a full list of other things when being attacked and this is what happened to Buffy. She was already injured from an earlier fight and when Spike grabs her she hits the injured part of her back against the tub. This coupled with the shock and trauma induced in the moment of the assault could absolutely rob her of her slayer strength. I don't know why people always insist that she could or should have fought him off or why they question why she was suddenly shown as being "unable to fight Spike off".

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION]

just like any other victim because she has not encountered that kind of violation before

Well, Buffy did. Multiple times actually. Hell, she was raped.

She was already injured from an earlier fight and when Spike grabs her she hits the injured part of her back against the tub.

Far greater injuries did not affected her performance before.

This coupled with the shock and trauma induced in the moment of the assault could absolutely rob her of her slayer strength.

The only thing that can rob her of slayer strength is watcher's injection as seen in "Helpless".

I don't know why people always insist that she could or should have fought him off or why they question why she was suddenly shown as being "unable to fight Spike off".

Because she is the slayer. You make the same mistake as most vampires Buffy faces. You think that Buffy is just a human girl.

 

[EffyStonem]

Well, Buffy did. Multiple times actually. Hell, she was raped.

Um, when? Aside from Xander's Hyena-attack which didn't seem to get too far nor be that violent (if violent at all), Buffy hasn't experienced sexual assault.

Far greater injuries did not affected her performance before.

Maybe not when she is engaging in normal violence. As I said before, sexual violence is different.

The only thing that can rob her of slayer strength is watcher's injection as seen in "Helpless".

I meant that in the moment her powers could plausibly disappear due to the psychological trauma brought on in the moment of the attack.

Because she is the slayer. You make the same mistake as most vampires Buffy faces. You think that Buffy is just a human girl.

Buffy is a human girl albeit one with enhanced abilities but she is still human. You make the mistake of thinking that because of her slayer powers she is somehow immune to normal human reactions.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION]

Um, when? Aside from Xander's Hyena-attack which didn't seem to get too far nor be that violent (if violent at all), Buffy hasn't experienced sexual assault.

She has in "Go Fish". Multiple times in that one episode.

Maybe not when she is engaging in normal violence. As I said before, sexual violence is different.

So when it's normal violence Buffy just shrugs her injuries, like a beating from a hell god or a sharp object through her insides but when it's sexual violence, that one time in the entire show, she does not?

It does not make any sense.

I meant that in the moment her powers could plausibly disappear due to the psychological trauma brought on in the moment of the attack.

Buffy goes through a lot of psychological trauma, just as bad as a rape attempt. It never affects her powers, or her performance, or her strength, like when she dispatches a vampire in "The Body" next to her mother's corpse, or blows up The Judge in "Innocence", or tries to stop Willow after being shot.

Buffy is a human girl albeit one with enhanced abilities but she is still human.

Here's what Buffy has to say about that:

You're all gonna die. But you knew that already. 'Cause that's the cool reward for being human. Big dessert at the end of the meal.

As in not me, OK? I don't get, Buffy fully accepts that she's not a human but some fans just cannot. What's going on in here? The show is called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer", Buffy's The Slayer, we know how it works, heart and soul of a pure demon and so on, it's been thoroughly explained. What's with the denial? She becomes suddenly, what, harder to identify with?

You make the mistake of thinking that because of her slayer powers she is somehow immune to normal human reactions.

So she was what, shocked and terrified by Spike? We're talking about Spike here, right? I think that's garbage, seriously.

 

[EffyStonem]

She has in "Go Fish". Multiple times in that one episode.

No, the coach threatens to let the monsters rape her but they barely get near her before she fights them off and escapes. She is not raped in that scene.

So when it's normal violence Buffy just shrugs her injuries, like a beating from a hell god or a sharp object through her insides but when it's sexual violence, that one time in the entire show, she does not? It does not make any sense.

Sexual violence can paralyze victims. It can make them go catatonic. It can induce panic attacks and physical reactions. So yes, it is does make sense that the one time Buffy experienced brutal sexual violence her strength would betray her.

Buffy goes through a lot of psychological trauma, just as bad as a rape attempt. It never affects her powers, or her performance, or her strength, like when she dispatches a vampire in "The Body" next to her mother's corpse, or blows up The Judge in "Innocence", or tries to stop Willow after being shot.

You've picked some poor choices. Buffy is powerless during the sexual assault because she is being victimised and violated. In the instances you mentioned Buffy is not being victimised, she is in situations she is used to as the slayer. Of course she would deal with them better than someone trying to rape her.

So she was what, shocked and terrified by Spike? We're talking about Spike here, right? I think that's garbage, seriously.

Um, of course she was shocked and terrified by Spike. He was violently, aggressivley and brutally trying to force himself on her. Regardless of whether they know and care for their attacker or not, sexual assault victims are going to be shocked and terrified because of what is happening to them.

 

[Sweet J]

Because everyone agrees Faith tried to rape Xander, whereas people try and justify Spikes actions.

Everyone agrees that both Faith & Spike crossed the line. I've never read any argument that tried to justify Spikes actions, that even suggests what he did was "right".

I think you might be jumping to concluding that people who describe the context of such incidents are attempting to "justify" them. This is not so, for example, in the less discussed incident - Faith was a borderline nihilist psychotic driven to that edge from being wrapped with guilt of accidentally killing someone, an accident which set her on a fast spiralling path to self destruction, unable to face her demons. This is where she was at when she nearly raped and killed Xander, she didn't care, as what would 1 more body matter? She just wanted to get away from feeling the guilt for a while.
This would not be regarded as trying to "justify" what she did. Just describing the context, what viewers are led to understand of her state of mind at that time. In a lot of ways I think we all feel sorry for Faith, being incapable of washing the blood away. Like the story of Lady Macbeth in some ways, not intending to end up doing what she did, but she did it any way.

I hope you would generally agree with my stab at assessing Faith's state of mind above, if not, I'm always intrigued to find out what other fans feel when watching the show, and would enjoy hearing what everyone else felt was her state of mind.
However writing the context is not me trying to justify Faith's actions. Just describing the back story, it in no way takes away from how wrong her attempted sexual assault and murder of Xander is, or how heinous the crimes she later commits are, she was later a mini "big bad" for a time. In saying that however, Faith's still one of my favorite characters. Now when someone sums up the context that led up to Spike's attempted rape, they're branded as someone trying to "justify" it...Why?

1. There is no question as to what happened in that bedroom. It is accepted as fact that Faith sexually assaulted Xander and then tried to kill him.

I'm not up on all the arguments made, but can you point me to a post made that suggests Spike didn't sexually assault Buffy?

2. We immediately accept that this is wrong and understand Xander did nothing wrong, that anything that went on before with he and Faith has no bearing on the situation in that room.

Again, who is saying what Spike did wasn't wrong?
Secondly, what went on before with Xander and Faith did have a bearing on the situation in the room, she wanted to think he was there for sex again and was outraged that he essentially rejected her advances.

3. We immediately understand that Faith is a "bad guy." There is no discussion about what could have led her to do this.

I don't think that is accurate, in fact, Faith is rightly painted as a victim herself in a lot of ways, and my reply to Black Eye Guy above explains how I felt watching Faith and what could have led her to do that. She is not painted as a random dark alley "bad guy".

Spike is far closer to the "bad guy" trope during Seeing Red, as he has killed for at least 100 years and is a vampire without a soul, a species which is the primary antagonist of the entire show.

4. She is punished within the story. Over the next season every choice Faith has made, and will make, come backs to haunt her and she pays for them all.

[/QUOTE]
Over the next season she gets a new apartment, playstation and a father figure, the only time she is really punished is when she poisons Angel, an entirely different crime, and the motivation for punishing Faith here is simply that Buffy needs to feed Slayer blood to Angel.
Of course when she wakes up after being punished for poisoning Angel, and she goes on another killing spree, her conscience, and the law, eventually catches up to Faith and she spends a few years in prison for crimes unrelated to sexual assault.

On the other hand Spike sees what he did hurt someone, and ultimately his vampiric demon soul gets pulled out of its vessel and sent back to hell. The demon in Spikeus, akin to angelus, is punished. It's sent to jail metaphorically.

Probably because the attempted rape in "Seeing Red" was intended to be, and if all of the controversy and continued, often heated, debate is any indicator, actually is, a much more significant event than Faith's attack on Xander. "Seeing Red" has been explained by Joss and others as being a pivotal point in Spike's development, the catalyst that finally initiated his determination to regain his soul. What happened between Faith and Xander didn't effect her in anything near that degree.

And while some here may disagree, trying to determine the reasons for Spike's actions and their consequences is in no way an attempt to justify them.

I'm not denying that Spike's rape on Buffy isn't more pivotal from a character development stand point, it is, but that was my point. I was talking more about the thread count on the outrage that the Spike&Buffy rape created in this community. Why was that rape portrayed as having the power to create a pivotal change in a characters development whereas the Faith&Xander rape creates practically zero changes in either character.

I'm in full agreement about your "justify" point, we're on the same wavelength there dude.

While the show does treat Faith's actions as wrong and condemns her (which it doesn't quite achieve with Spike) I still find it disturbing that, once again, the victim and their trauma is left unexplored and unresolved.

Xander suffers an extremely brutal sexual assault at Faith's hands and yet he bounces back the next episode with no consequences and no thought to what he went through. This is wrong on so many levels and it's quite similar to Buffy's lack of repercussions from her sexual assault.

Joss and Co. never seem to think about the victim when they decide to write sexual assault and that is highly disturbing and suggests a lack of empathy and understanding when it comes to sexual assault. Really, the man should just steer clear of writing any kind of sexual violence as he has no clue how to deal with it sensitively and with thought to the victim as opposed to the perpetrator.

I generally agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraph here Effy!

As for the episode "Go Fish", I think it is alluded to that the star swimmer Cameron Walker did attempt to get frisky with Buffy after she said no in the car, and for his advances the buffster broke his nose.

In sum, I know it is hard to forget that Xander's a guy, and guys can pretty confidently take care of most women. I just ask those to imagine that the genders were reversed between what happened with Faith and Xander in that motel room in season 3 and afterwards, and you'll hopefully see where I'm coming from, that it is a far more disturbing and realistic attempted rape/murder scene.

---------- Post added at 02:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 AM ----------

I forget to mention that before Faith's conscience catches up with her for killing people, she essentially strikes again and rapes Riley Finn. This is rape as he was not consenting to having relations, with metaphorically, some random woman he didn't know who got plastic surgery to impersonate his girlfriend.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Everyone agrees that both Faith & Spike crossed the line. I've never read any argument that tried to justify Spikes actions, that even suggests what he did was "right".

I think you might be jumping to concluding that people who describe the context of such incidents are attempting to "justify" them.

Now when someone sums up the context that led up to Spike's attempted rape, they're branded as someone trying to "justify" it...Why?

No I think your jumping to conclusions thinking that fans explaining the motives behind Spikes motives. The reason a lot of people try and explain his actions is to make Spike less bad, to take away some of what he did. People often explain his motives or pass some of the blame to Buffy.

Your argument for Faith is nothing like most of the arguments in Spikes favor, the argument was well balanced, made sense and wasn't coming from a place were you may not think Faith was right, but your still on her side. Actually compare how your argument is worded to many of the Spikes ones, I see a massive difference.

I'm not up on all the arguments made, but can you point me to a post made that suggests Spike didn't sexually assault Buffy?

Yep - Here, We're not just saying people try and justify it becasue we like a good debate, we've been on here many years and have seen the argument approached from every angle, and often it's from a place of trying to justify.

 

[whitewolf]

Because everyone agrees Faith tried to rape Xander, whereas people try and justify Spikes actions.

Please tell me they don't? I've seen one person on these forums try to do it and that person was (rightly) attacked so much for that opinion that they left. I was hoping that was the only time I'd see people defending Spike for his actions in this case.

 

[Zeppelin92]

Cultural Bias. Its always the cultural bias. lol.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------

Also I don't really consider Faith's thing with Xander was an AR. She was flat out trying to kill him in an overtly sexual position just because she was digging the power trip. She was more interested in killing Xander than actually raping him in my opinion.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Interesting! I can honestly say in all my years in the fandom I have never come across this debate.

I don't think Faith raped Xander. She initiated it, sure but Xander was willing.

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

Strength has nothing to do with the Spuffy attempted rape. When someone sexually attacks you a myriad of things can prevent you from being able to fight back even if you are as strong or stronger than your attacker.

Sexual violence is extremely different to normal violence. It's less about the pain, the force and the strength and more about the psychological terror it evokes. Buffy may have been physically stronger than Spike but in a sexually violent situation she would react just like any other victim because she has not encountered that kind of violation before.

Rape victims can and do freeze, lose their strength in the moment, panic and a full list of other things when being attacked and this is what happened to Buffy. She was already injured from an earlier fight and when Spike grabs her she hits the injured part of her back against the tub. This coupled with the shock and trauma induced in the moment of the assault could absolutely rob her of her slayer strength. I don't know why people always insist that she could or should have fought him off or why they question why she was suddenly shown as being "unable to fight Spike off".

This is a great point. Also, she arguably trusted Spike at that point, and think she was shocked.