Why everyone hates this season

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From what I have been recently reading - fans at the time didn't react well to Riley because she had just split with Angel in s3, so they couldn't really get on board with him so soon.

I actually thought they had good chemistry and were a good couple. I may be one of the few who thinks so..

That was the excuse given at the time by JW and the writers but that conveniently ignored all non Bangel Shippers that were not fans either.
The reality was they thought they'd found the holy grail in Riley and Whedon's ego was to big to admit he wasn't
 
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Yeah, Walsh's departure has never had a good explanation. I mean, middle aged actresses with Emmy nominations are not the type to ask for releases in the middle of the season, then come back to play zombie Walsh.

Joss realizing the Army plot really didn't have legs sort of works. I mean, it's basically treading water between Adam's escape and the finale. Magic v. Technology sounds pretty cool, but in truth, what the heck even is it?

It doesn't get brought up a lot, but Buffy was pretty chase in season 3, to go getting sexed all the time in season 4. I suspect whiplash may have been at play.
 
Whedon and the rest wanted Buffy to be the "typical college girl" (in their minds) rather than Buffy. Which meant dumbing her down, and I think ignoring previous experiences with colleges (though there is the plausible argument that Parker--and in this case Riley, for me if I accept this--is rebound guy than real romance, and makes me pity Buffy, and pity Riley even more, in addition to the "obligation" I describe below).


I can't find it so I must not be remembering the quote right (or the transcript is censored somehow). Buffy talks about how perfect Riley is, but just doesn't feel right, while Willow says something "run while you still can." The entire thing came off to me, probably unintentional by the writers, that they were trying to convince her to be with him, because once again, she is nothing without a love interest. Something terribly wrong with you if you're not with a guy, if you're not careful, you'll turn into Faith.

Plus, her abandonment issues were again underscored around this time, which imbues Buffy's "need" for a boyfriend seem like desperation and pain more than actual love and desire (even genuinely finding Riley hot, as opposed to genuinely growing close to him, wouldn't be enough to erase that in my mind).

It felt to me that Buffy didn't WANT to be with a guy but felt OBLIGATED to...and Willow also bought into that (subconsciously). That ruins it for me.

Not the character (I like him more than most--and ironically, he seemed more observant and caring of Willow during her heartbreak than Willow's own friends), but the ship.



Also, Riley punching Parker loses some of it's appeal when I realize that Parker felt safe enough to say that around Riley and the others are surprised when Riley punches him, implying that if he did not know Buffy (or been someone else he wasn't familiar with), he'd been fine with it, at least not worth the trouble of making a scene. Just a little detail, but there are plenty of others like it.
 
Whedon and the rest wanted Buffy to be the "typical college girl" (in their minds) rather than Buffy. Which meant dumbing her down, and I think ignoring previous experiences with colleges (though there is the plausible argument that Parker--and in this case Riley, for me if I accept this--is rebound guy than real romance, and makes me pity Buffy, and pity Riley even more, in addition to the "obligation" I describe below).


I can't find it so I must not be remembering the quote right (or the transcript is censored somehow). Buffy talks about how perfect Riley is, but just doesn't feel right, while Willow says something "run while you still can." The entire thing came off to me, probably unintentional by the writers, that they were trying to convince her to be with him, because once again, she is nothing without a love interest. Something terribly wrong with you if you're not with a guy, if you're not careful, you'll turn into Faith.

Plus, her abandonment issues were again underscored around this time, which imbues Buffy's "need" for a boyfriend seem like desperation and pain more than actual love and desire (even genuinely finding Riley hot, as opposed to genuinely growing close to him, wouldn't be enough to erase that in my mind).

It felt to me that Buffy didn't WANT to be with a guy but felt OBLIGATED to...and Willow also bought into that (subconsciously). That ruins it for me.

Not the character (I like him more than most--and ironically, he seemed more observant and caring of Willow during her heartbreak than Willow's own friends), but the ship.



Also, Riley punching Parker loses some of it's appeal when I realize that Parker felt safe enough to say that around Riley and the others are surprised when Riley punches him, implying that if he did not know Buffy (or been someone else he wasn't familiar with), he'd been fine with it, at least not worth the trouble of making a scene. Just a little detail, but there are plenty of others like it.

Your thinking of Something Blue, the speech was in that. The crux of that episode and the Writer intention was to show why Buffy should be over Bad boys and go for nice safe Riley.

The whole Parker thing seemed out of character for Parker too. It was done to make Riley look good and sympathetic.

For the Angel/Riley fight, Doug Petrie there were huge debates among the writers over who should win that fight. It was eventually given to Angel but only because he had his own show.

Like I said I really never understood the Writer love of the Riley character. It was weird it really was
 
I like season four a lot. Despite (because of?) the poor arc, there are a lot of episodes that are simply fun to watch on their own.

You've got a couple of great one-shot villains in Sunday and the Gentleman, as well as the lighter episodes, plus Faith's great two-parter.

You've even got the low-rated "Beer Bad" which I like - and I have no idea why that is rated so low; I mean, Cave Slayer? - and the similarly poorly rated, yet I like it, "Where the Wild Things Are". Which has Giles. Crooning. Simply jaw-dropping.

croon.PNG
 
That was the excuse given at the time by JW and the writers but that conveniently ignored all non Bangel Shippers that were not fans either.
The reality was they thought they'd found the holy grail in Riley and Whedon's ego was to big to admit he wasn't
I started watching the show in S5 so I'm unaware of the feedback happening at the time - so was he universally hated by fans?

I suppose coupled with Buffy moving on to college and the dynamic changing with Xander sort of splintering off, Cordy's gone, it was a lot for fans to take in.
 
Your thinking of Something Blue, the speech was in that. The crux of that episode and the Writer intention was to show why Buffy should be over Bad boys and go for nice safe Riley.

The whole Parker thing seemed out of character for Parker too. It was done to make Riley look good and sympathetic.

For the Angel/Riley fight, Doug Petrie there were huge debates among the writers over who should win that fight. It was eventually given to Angel but only because he had his own show.

Like I said I really never understood the Writer love of the Riley character. It was weird it really was
I question whether the parker thing is out of character. Yes, he SEEMS nice. That's how he does it. IT was painfully obvious to me that he charms his way into bed for a once and done. Saying he's nice so wouldn't act that way ignores that he's nice SO he can act that way.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Parker is a predator.
I question whether the parker thing is out of character. Yes, he SEEMS nice. That's how he does it. IT was painfully obvious to me that he charms his way into bed for a once and done. Saying he's nice so wouldn't act that way ignores that he's nice SO he can act that way.

Yes I know Parker is not a nice guy. But how he is not a nice guy is different from just random frat boy language
 
If perhaps Buffy and Riley just had a slayer/soldier alliance, rather than being forced together as a chemistryless couple, and we had something a bit more interesting than Adam, the season wouldn't have been too bad. As for Parker, to be fair, I don't think we were supposed to like him anyway.

I didn't mind 'Beer Bad' myself - though I wouldn't rate it high. I hated 'Superstar' far more, and, while any storyline revolving around Faith is going to be nothing short of 'magnificient' I hated the fact that the scoobies didn't question why Buffy was talking and acting like her in 'Who are you?'. They noticed her acting strangely in both 'When she was bad' and 'Living conditions', afterall...

And, yes, as a couple of you have mentioned, they should have done more with Sunday! She was too good to be a one-episode villain.
 
I'll give this to Parker. He comes pretty close to the dark side of Joss. Like, instead of just making him a jock, or a frat boy, or any of the thousands of college tropes, they go the pseudo intellectual route. And frankly, Buffy knew how to deal with the first two, every High School in America has the first two. But the clever sociopath who learned enough in a philosophy survey course to seduce a co-ed is a uniquely college monster, although usually, they don't go after girls who look like Buffy.
 
I didn't like Buffy asking Parker if she did something wrong - that bugs me everytime. I wanted her to beat the crap out of him.
 
I didn't like Buffy asking Parker if she did something wrong - that bugs me everytime. I wanted her to beat the crap out of him.
Hopefully, Cave Slayer concussed him.
Post automatically merged:

@TheXandyman Should I mention I actually thought that...
 
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TheXandyman
TheXandyman
Seeing Anya on your signature made me imagine Anya saying it.

'Maybe he'll die of a brain haemorrage!' *sees the look on everyone's faces* 'What...?'
Basically:



- In hindsight the replacement of Cordelia and Angel with stand-ins was fine; probably the safest option in a season that was changing so many things up and doing crossover stuff.
However Anya and Spike are much, much more morally murky than the characters they replaced; one is a former vengeance demon and the other is a soulless monster. They are both former antagonists of our heroes and so intergrating them into the show took some deft writing.
Many feel that these two 'joining' the group (and the justifications for that) makes the Scoobies much more morally suspect...which would get more apparent as the show went on.

I understand that from an outside perspective.

However, Cordelia was an annoying narcist mean-girl, so those replacements are for the better.
 
However, Cordelia was an annoying narcist mean-girl, so those replacements are for the better.

Cordelia might've been a narcissist mean girl but she had also murdered zero amount of people. Also she was funnier, hotter and more useful than Anya. 4 for 4 as far as I'm concerned.
 
Oz. The departure of almost everyone's favourite redhaired wisecracking axeman werewolf lovegod was a deeply sad event. Granted, it gave Allyson Hannigan a chance to deepen her portrayal of Willow and display her acting range, but I wish Seth had decided to stay in the role. Although I suspect that might have meant that in an alternate Season 6, it might have been Oz that got killed in Seeing Red as a consequence of Warren's riccochet shot.
 
I also bought that Buffy would fall for Parker's slick charms, just like she fell for that guy from Reptile Boy, it seems to be her blind spot; she can'tell real sincerity from fake. Explains a lot of her romantic choices tbh.

The actress who played Maggie Walsh said it was Joss who told her he was killing her off not that she decided to leave. I guess he felt Adam was a better Villain since Buffy could fight him without being a bully.

Overall in general I felt that the writers struggled with any Big Bad villain that Buffy couldn't punch; Walsh devolved into cyber-Adam, the Trio kept on running away until Buffy had to brawl with Dark Willow or her summoned creatures, The First was depicted as relatively useless without Turok-Han's or Caleb.

Buffy is basically a super-hero, but often superheroes can has interesting fights/conflicts against a villain who is nothing like them in terms of power, so the hero has to think around the problem.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
The First was such a bad choice as a big bad because it became clear that the writers did not have the slightest clue about how Buffy could deal with it. Which is why she didn't.
I also bought that Buffy would fall for Parker's slick charms, just like she fell for that guy from Reptile Boy, it seems to be her blind spot; she can'tell real sincerity from fake. Explains a lot of her romantic choices tbh.



Overall in general I felt that the writers struggled with any Big Bad villain that Buffy couldn't punch; Walsh devolved into cyber-Adam, the Trio kept on running away until Buffy had to brawl with Dark Willow or her summoned creatures, The First was depicted as relatively useless without Turok-Han's or Caleb.

Buffy is basically a super-hero, but often superheroes can has interesting fights/conflicts against a villain who is nothing like them in terms of power, so the hero has to think around the problem.

Not just non punch ones.
Glory literally sat around doing nothing until the end of the season for well reasons .
The Mayors plan made no sense with even a seconds thought other than Joss thinking it will be cool having Buffy fight a Phallic monster.

Wolfram and Hart were basically a glorified mystery box
 
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