Question Why is Buffy so confident she can beat the uber vamp in showtime?

Something else to consider is that self confidence has to be a trait as necessary to a Slayer as superhuman strength and accelerated healing. Buffy might have her doubts about other things, like who she really loves, what she wants to make out of her life, or any number of other things, but about the ability to do her job, she can never have any doubts. Reasonable judgment, certainly, as well an understandable amount of common caution, but in the end, the Slayer HAS to believe that she can meet and overcome any challenge that the demon world can throw at her. Otherwise, they would all run away and hide in a cave somewhere as soon as they found out what they had to do.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
I mean, this says it perfectly
Lyri
Lyri
[No message]
Well, yes, but that is rather irrelevant when what I see on the screen is pure fluke.

So a slayer doing what she was built to do is a fluke? Okay. I guess I'll just disagree here...

Rather weird examples, considering both involve a lot of help from Buffy's friends. If Buffy had rushed towards The Mayor or Glory with no plan and no help she would have been defeated for sure. Or at least her victory would been even more unbelievable than in Showtime.

Nope. Buffy planned the specifics for the attack on Mayor on her own, as soon as she was back from the hospital, and everyone did as they were told. Glory was an example of Scoobies helping to strategize, yes, as I indicated clearly in my post. And again, my point was that there is always a lack of time, so plans are hard to come by, whether they involve Buffy alone or all of the Scoobies is a secondary point.

You can say the same about Innocence or Primeval or The Gift or Triangle or Blood Ties or Killed By Death, etc. Yet, these episodes didn't follow the "Buffy wins because she has to scheme". The showed us the characters had brains, not just superpowers and guts. That's what I really love about BtVS. Stories where the hero wins because he or she is too much of a badass to lose are dime a dozen. Stories where characters regularly use their brains in order to defeat the bad guys are much more rare.

In all of those examples, (except for Primeval), a character thinks of something quickly, and it is enough. In my opinion, they are direct parallels in this way to what happens in Showtime. They support my point. Sometimes there is a concrete idea like the rocket launcher. Sometimes the plan is for Buffy to wail on the Troll. Primeval is the only example there of a well thought out plan and in that way is not comparable to Showtime.
But please don't twist my words, just because I didn't mention brains doesn't mean I don't think there aren't any involved. Of course there are. It takes a lot of brains to do what Buffy did in Showtime; she decides when to go which is very smart and her fight is quite well orchestrated. It isn't fluke and it isn't badass. Badass implies recklessness which Buffy rarely displays. And I agree with you; without brains the show would suck. But quick thinking and lack of careful planning when time is of the essence does not mean brainless. If anything, it means readily available, overabundance of intelligence.
 
But please don't twist my words, just because I didn't mention brains doesn't mean I don't think there aren't any involved.

I never said that you don't think so. I am saying that I don't think there was any thinking involved in Showtime. On the contrary, the writers try to present something suicidally stupid as some sort of brilliant plan (just like in Chosen, by the way). If they had presented it as Buffy being cornered, with no choice but to fight without a plan and without support, I would have accepted her victory a lot more easily.

Nope. Buffy planned the specifics for the attack on Mayor on her own, as soon as she was back from the hospital, and everyone did as they were told. Glory was an example of Scoobies helping to strategize, yes, as I indicated clearly in my post. And again, my point was that there is always a lack of time, so plans are hard to come by, whether they involve Buffy alone or all of the Scoobies is a secondary point.

I really don't think Buffy using or not all resources at her disposal is a secondary point. A general who on a whim decides to go into a fight without air support or proper reconnaissance for no reason other than to show that he can win, even if the same adversary had comprehensively defeated him recently, would probably be fired even if he somehow pulls a miraculous victory.

In all of those examples, (except for Primeval), a character thinks of something quickly, and it is enough. In my opinion, they are direct parallels in this way to what happens in Showtime. They support my point. Sometimes there is a concrete idea like the rocket launcher. Sometimes the plan is for Buffy to wail on the Troll. Primeval is the only example there of a well thought out plan and in that way is not comparable to Showtime.

How exactly is the plan from The Gift not comparable to that of Primeval? If anything, it's more complex and it involves input from Anya, Willow and Xander. But more importantly, lack of time rarely stopped the Scoobies from making proper ones, so saying that they couldn't have done it in Showtime because there was no time is a rather weak argument, IMO.
 
Doppelgang
Doppelgang
Good point. They seemed to contrive desperation into being something that was planned all along
I never said that you don't think so. I am saying that I don't think there was any thinking involved in Showtime. On the contrary, the writers try to present something suicidally stupid as some sort of brilliant plan (just like in Chosen, by the way). If they had presented it as Buffy being cornered, with no choice but to fight without a plan and without support, I would have accepted her victory a lot more easily.

I think we just view this differently but ultimately agree: I think Buffy was cornered with no choice but to fight without a plan, and that she did have Willow there just in case. So I accept her victory.


A general who on a whim decides to go into a fight without air support or proper reconnaissance for no reason other than to show that he can win, even if the same adversary had comprehensively defeated him recently, would probably be fired even if he somehow pulls a miraculous victory.

But again, this is too much of a literal application to what a regular human would do in the our regular old world. I choose to see it as a strong person with supernatural powers who can and does go against orders because she is born to--and part of her success is believing that she can succeed even when it doesn't seem likely. Buffy for that reason would never belong in a military setting, and that was illustrated quite well in Season 4. I bought it.


How exactly is the plan from The Gift not comparable to that of Primeval? If anything, it's more complex and it involves input from Anya, Willow and Xander. But more importantly, lack of time rarely stopped the Scoobies from making proper ones, so saying that they couldn't have done it in Showtime because there was no time is a rather weak argument, IMO.

I don't think the plan for The Gift was very involved, personally. But more to the point, they had much more to work with than they did in Showtime. They had the dagon sphere which they knew repelled their enemy, they had the buffy bot which was perfect, AND they knew that all they had to do was prevent the ritual from happening at the right time in order to make it obsolete. In Showtime, what did they have? They didn't know of any ways to kill the Turok Han other than to fight it hard using the traditional vampire-slaying method. They had absolutely no other tools or information, and they were down one major player, (your favorite, Spike). I will agree that they could have done more to employ the use of Willow and Xander as they did in The Gift, but I see that as dramatic license for the purpose of augmenting Buffy's solo victory, and though I roll my eyes a little bit at that stuff, I ultimately love it because I think it makes for a great story.
 
But again, this is too much of a literal application to what a regular human would do in the our regular old world. I choose to see it as a strong person with supernatural powers who can and does go against orders because she is born to--and part of her success is believing that she can succeed even when it doesn't seem likely.

Well, then most of S5 is a waste of time since all Buffy would have needed to defeat Glory would have been to get over herself and attack her with what she got. She shouldn't have bothered with a plan at all. 😀 The type of story we see in Showtime works when the opponent isn't really that much stronger than Buffy - like in The Freshman. In such circumstances Buffy doing her best should suffice (but even in The Freshman, the Scoobies rushed to help her instead eating popcorn in the stands).

I don't think the plan for The Gift was very involved, personally. But more to the point, they had much more to work with than they did in Showtime. They had the dagon sphere which they knew repelled their enemy, they had the buffy bot which was perfect, AND they knew that all they had to do was prevent the ritual from happening at the right time in order to make it obsolete. In Showtime, what did they have? They didn't know of any ways to kill the Turok Han other than to fight it hard using the traditional vampire-slaying method. They had absolutely no other tools or information, and they were down one major player, (your favorite, Spike). I will agree that they could have done more to employ the use of Willow and Xander as they did in The Gift, but I see that as dramatic license for the purpose of augmenting Buffy's solo victory, and though I roll my eyes a little bit at that stuff, I ultimately love it because I think it makes for a great story.

What could they have used in Showtime? How about - the rocket launcher we see in Him, help from Riley and his men, help from the English coven that in S6 made Giles strong enough to take on Willow, Olaf's hammer, the spell from Primeval, a random device they thought of for this occasion? Something! Anything!
 
Well, then most of S5 is a waste of time since all Buffy would have needed to defeat Glory would have been to get over herself and attack her with what she got. She shouldn't have bothered with a plan at all. 😀 The type of story we see in Showtime works when the opponent isn't really that much stronger than Buffy - like in The Freshman. In such circumstances Buffy doing her best should suffice (but even in The Freshman, the Scoobies rushed to help her instead eating popcorn in the stands).

But Buffy and co didn't know what they needed in order to defeat Glory until the last episode of season 5, so the entire season wouldn't have been a waste of time. Also, yeah, technically she just had to keep beating her up with all she had until the it was too late to do the ritual. The other elements were to help facilitate that. And it would have worked, if Doc hadn't appeared.

Buffy has fought way more powerful beings than Sunday and won, without the physical help of the Scoobies. So I don't buy The Freshman as an example.

What could they have used in Showtime? How about - the rocket launcher we see in Him, help from Riley and his men, help from the English coven that in S6 made Giles strong enough to take on Willow, Olaf's hammer, the spell from Primeval, a random device they thought of for this occasion? Something! Anything!

Rocket launcher would have been a good idea, true. Can't argue with its effectiveness, but again, I think Buffy needed to get down and dirty with the vamp in order to inspire the girls. The rocket launcher would have made for boring TV in my opinion--as it is, in Innocence I would find it boring if it wasn't for the fact that Xander brilliantly come up with the idea in context. Using it to blast a vamp wouldn't have been so exciting. (So then the argument becomes about how much disbelief we are willing to suspend for more exciting TV). Riley and his men were difficult to reach, (Buffy didn't even know how to go about it until she was faced with a situation where she absolutely needed them in order to help Spike, which happens episodes later). Again, a team of soldiers and a slayer fighting a vamp wasn't the message she wanted to send. Dangerous and unrealistic in our world, sure. But necessary in Buffy's.
I DO very much agree with you about the Primeval spell though. While I don't think it should have been used in this case simply because, again, Buffy wanted to show them that she could do it alone, it does bother me that they don't ever use it again...like with Glory?? I was thinking about starting a separate rant thread about that.
 
I DO very much agree with you about the Primeval spell though. While I don't think it should have been used in this case simply because, again, Buffy wanted to show them that she could do it alone, it does bother me that they don't ever use it again...like with Glory?? I was thinking about starting a separate rant thread about that.
Perhaps because of the side-effect of offending the spirit of the First Slayer? It did try to kill them in their sleep after all. And Willow may not be able to participate in the later seasons because of the magic!crack she permanently (?) has in her system since 'Wrecked'.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
Good point. But I was always unclear on that: I mean did she literally try to kill them? Because if it was just a series of nightmares, (as presented), I think that's far better than what Glory dished out--I would have risked it
But Buffy and co didn't know what they needed in order to defeat Glory until the last episode of season 5, so the entire season wouldn't have been a waste of time. Also, yeah, technically she just had to keep beating her up with all she had until the it was too late to do the ritual. The other elements were to help facilitate that. And it would have worked, if Doc hadn't appeared.

You misunderstood my example, I think. The fight with Glory happened when it happened precisely because Buffy would not attack Glory until she (or rather Anya and Willow) had found a way to level the playing field. She didn't follow her defeat in No Place Home with a random epiphany and kicking of Glory's ass in the next episode with no proper plan. That's the difference I was trying to point out.

Buffy has fought way more powerful beings than Sunday and won, without the physical help of the Scoobies. So I don't buy The Freshman as an example.

Which enemy managed to defeat Buffy comprehensively and was later defeated without help or even without a plan? Adam? No. Glory. No.
 
That's my view ...

I honestly think that she didn't consider *him* unbeatable. It was really risky, but as others have said, she was forced to do something, FAST! This is also one of my favorite Buffy moments... She didn't ask for any help and just managed to be on top at the end of the fight. 😎

I agree. Maybe she wasn't confident at all, but for the sake of the potentials, she had to "put up or shut up." It was a case of "I will, because I must." It was courage, it was beautiful.
 
You misunderstood my example, I think. The fight with Glory happened when it happened precisely because Buffy would not attack Glory until she (or rather Anya and Willow) had found a way to level the playing field. She didn't follow her defeat in No Place Home with a random epiphany and kicking of Glory's ass in the next episode with no proper plan. That's the difference I was trying to point out.

I understand now what your point was. But in the case of Glory, post NPLH, Buffy didn't need to go after her, immediately. She didn't have anything to prove, (which she did in Showtime), and most importantly, Glory was a goddess and the Turok Han, as ruthless and terrible as it was, at the end of the day was a vampire. Until The Gift, Buffy had nothing to go on in terms of beating Glory; all she knew was that she couldn't inflict the least bit of damage upon her. So she had to wait. In the case of the Turok Han, Buffy knew that he'd be tough to handle but that ultimately he was a vampire and that she was the slayer. Add to that the urgency to prove something to the girls, and you get a totally different scenario from season 5.

Which enemy managed to defeat Buffy comprehensively and was later defeated without help or even without a plan? Adam? No. Glory. No.

Judging from the amount of difficulty she appears to have when fighting Olaf, for example, I'd say that he falls into that category. Sure, the others help a bit by distracting him, but you can also argue that the Scoobies helped Buffy in Showtime by helping her set up her Thunderdome arena and ensuring that the vamp would be there, alone.
Zachary Kralik is another example. Sure, Giles comes in and gets the other vamp, but Buffy goes in there all on her own and takes out Kralik with no help and no slayer power. Seems to me to be just as risky as Showtime.
 
Judging from the amount of difficulty she appears to have when fighting Olaf, for example, I'd say that he falls into that category. Sure, the others help a bit by distracting him, but you can also argue that the Scoobies helped Buffy in Showtime by helping her set up her Thunderdome arena and ensuring that the vamp would be there, alone.

Willow pulls Olaf's hammer from his hands by using magic. This alone is a lot more than the help Buffy received from the Scoobies in Showtime.

Zachary Kralik is another example. Sure, Giles comes in and gets the other vamp, but Buffy goes in there all on her own and takes out Kralik with no help and no slayer power. Seems to me to be just as risky as Showtime.

Well, it was risky. And stupid - why she didn't call Faith for help is never made clear. But there was an actual plan - to make Kralik drink holy water, so it was not exactly Buffy winning by just wanting it more. Personally I find the plan from Helpless facepalm-worthy but still it showed that the writers recognized the need for a plan in that situation.
 
Willow pulls Olaf's hammer from his hands by using magic. This alone is a lot more than the help Buffy received from the Scoobies in Showtime.

True but she just happened to be there in order for that to happen---it's not as if Buffy wouldn't have fought Olaf if Willow wasn't there. You're right; it is way more help than Buffy had in Showtime, but I think the parallel is that Willow was there, so she could have done something for Buffy if it was needed.

Well, it was risky. And stupid - why she didn't call Faith for help is never made clear. But there was an actual plan - to make Kralik drink holy water, so it was not exactly Buffy winning by just wanting it more. Personally I find the plan from Helpless facepalm-worthy but still it showed that the writers recognized the need for a plan in that situation.

I thought that she brought the holy water but didn't know exactly how she'd use it until she realized that Kralik took pills. So there was no plan, just quick thinking. In that way it's quite comparable to Showtime. I guess at the end of the day, Showtime makes sense to me because I believe that if a Slayer is smart, resourceful, extremely brave and very strong, solo victory against even a crazed Turok Han is possible. It sounds like you might agree with that statement but don't find the episode to demonstrate smarts or resourcefulness, which means I can't convince you that the victory isn't a fluke. 😀
 
True but she just happened to be there in order for that to happen---it's not as if Buffy wouldn't have fought Olaf if Willow wasn't there. You're right; it is way more help than Buffy had in Showtime, but I think the parallel is that Willow was there, so she could have done something for Buffy if it was needed.
Buffy manages to stay on the platform, and the Turok-Han scales the scaffolding to get to her. He grabs her by the throat, lifting her off the ground and choking her as she struggles against him.

RONA
It's killing her.

MOLLY
We have to do something.

WILLOW
Wait!

In 'Triangle', besides Willow's help, Anya also managed to distract Olaf somewhat, not to mention Xander stalled him and probably prevented him from killing Willow and Anya right away.

I thought that she brought the holy water but didn't know exactly how she'd use it until she realized that Kralik took pills. So there was no plan, just quick thinking. In that way it's quite comparable to Showtime.
She brings a bag full of weapons, crosses AND holy water; in 'Showtime' she fights unarmed, yet ironically, it's a single arrow that turns the battle in her tide. And I'm not sure, but did Kralik threaten to hurt her mother if she didn't come alone? If he didn't, maybe she thought he would?

I guess at the end of the day, Showtime makes sense to me because I believe that if a Slayer is smart, resourceful, extremely brave and very strong, solo victory against even a crazed Turok Han is possible. It sounds like you might agree with that statement but don't find the episode to demonstrate smarts or resourcefulness, which means I can't convince you that the victory isn't a fluke. 😀
Buffy wasn't smart or resourceful in 'Showtime'. She was, however, extremely brave and very strong, but then again, she's that throughout the entire show. And before, it didn't have to come at the expense of her smarts or resourcefulness (unless she was emotionally distraught, like when she couldn't bring herself to kill Angelus right away).
 
Last edited:
Buffy manages to stay on the platform, and the Turok-Han scales the scaffolding to get to her. He grabs her by the throat, lifting her off the ground and choking her as she struggles against him.

RONA
It's killing her.

MOLLY
We have to do something.

WILLOW
Wait!

In 'Triangle', besides Willow's help, Anya also managed to distract Olaf somewhat, not to mention Xander stalled him and probably prevented him from killing Willow and Anya right away.

I remain unconvinced. Willow said "wait," not "do absolutely nothing." Buffy had been choked by quite a few vamps in her time and yes, this one was stronger, but Willow didn't think she needed help yet. She's the slayer.
You're missing my "bottom line" point about Triangle and every other difficult fight Buffy's been in as it compares to Showtime. (I've mentioned it a lot in this thread). Buffy needed to prove to the potentials that she could win, alone. So while the other Scoobies were there just in case, their intervention needed to be delayed.

She brings a bag full of weapons, crosses AND holy water; in 'Showtime' she fights unarmed, yet ironically, it's a single arrow that turns the battle in her tide. And I'm not sure, but did Kralik threaten to hurt her mother if she didn't come alone? If he didn't, maybe she thought he would?

Well, in Showtime, the location of the fight is completely planned to give her an advantage. A powerless person may need an entire bag of weapons and holy water to stand a chance, but a powerful slayer just needs an environment that she can use to her advantage. As she says in Potential, "anything is a weapon in the hands of a slayer if you know how to use it." That's what is demonstrated in Showtime, and that's why I find it to be a parallel with a powerless, weapon-toting Buffy in Helpless. (The arrow is ridiculous and completely takes away from the point of the scene, IMO. It's definitely an eye-roll moment--can't say much else about it).

Buffy wasn't smart or resourceful in 'Showtime'. She was, however, extremely brave and very strong, but then again, she's that throughout the entire show. And before, it didn't have to come at the expense of her smarts or resourcefulness (unless she was emotionally distraught, like when she couldn't bring herself to kill Angelus right away).

As I stated above, I think she's resourceful in Showtime. Earlier in this thread I argued that she is both resourceful and smart in the episode; my examples involved her timing, the nature of her demonstration (including its set-up and execution). I don't think her bravery or strength came at the expense of either characteristic.
And if you don't think anything she did in Showtime was smart, that's fine; it certainly wasn't rocket science. But if we want to get really picky, I'd argue that the planning and tactics used throughout the show are hardly brilliant; I often find them to be clever and "smart," sure, based on the information the characters are working with. But timing is always a factor and it isn't always possible to get too analytical. And as long as we're on that train of thought, how "smart" is it for Buffy to ever patrol alone in the graveyards, in spite of her strength? If more than ten vamps rose around the same time, (which is not impossible in her world), and fought her simultaneously, I'd say she'd be in a pretty tough spot. But if that's where the argument takes us, we're no longer enjoying the show.
 
I remain unconvinced. Willow said "wait," not "do absolutely nothing." Buffy had been choked by quite a few vamps in her time and yes, this one was stronger, but Willow didn't think she needed help yet. She's the slayer.
But in other situations - unless it's apparent the danger is minimal - the Scoobies typically rush to her aid. In 'Triangle', as soon as Willow finds an opportunity to cast the spell without being beaten to a bloody pulp by Olaf, she does so. Nothing would've prevented the Ubervamp from simply snapping Buffy's neck in 'Showtime', for example.

You're missing my "bottom line" point about Triangle and every other difficult fight Buffy's been in as it compares to Showtime. (I've mentioned it a lot in this thread). Buffy needed to prove to the potentials that she could win, alone. So while the other Scoobies were there just in case, their intervention needed to be delayed.
And you're missing my 'bottom line' point, which I've mentioned before as well. Inspiring.the Potentials and getting them to accept Buffy's leadership would've been better accomplished by good-decision making rather than a display of brute strength and pure luck.

Well, in Showtime, the location of the fight is completely planned to give her an advantage.
Really? Because from what I saw, Buffy didn't use the location to her advantage until she was literally knocked against whatever object was there. For example, only when she was punched face first into some cement blocks, did she use them. And the tide of the battle was turned around by...a crossbow arrow, something that wasn't part of the location to begin with. I would've been more impressed if Buffy had just carried some barb wire with her to begin with.

A powerless person may need an entire bag of weapons and holy water to stand a chance,
Even if the person is powerful, it sure doesn't hurt to have weapons, so why not just bring them along? Why take risks when it's not necessary?

but a powerful slayer just needs an environment that she can use to her advantage. As she says in Potential, "anything is a weapon in the hands of a slayer if you know how to use it." That's what is demonstrated in Showtime, and that's why I find it to be a parallel with a powerless, weapon-toting Buffy in Helpless.
Well, in that sense, the demonstration in 'Showtime' doesn't work at all, since there are plenty of advantages, but she uses them poorly, and she literally needs an external source (the arrow) to turn things around.

(The arrow is ridiculous and completely takes away from the point of the scene, IMO. It's definitely an eye-roll moment--can't say much else about it).
The arrow further confirms the point of the scene, at least for me: that Buffy's demonstration in 'Showtime' wasn't a sensible course of action at all.

As I stated above, I think she's resourceful in Showtime. Earlier in this thread I argued that she is both resourceful and smart in the episode; my examples involved her timing, the nature of her demonstration (including its set-up and execution). I don't think her bravery or strength came at the expense of either characteristic.
And if you don't think anything she did in Showtime was smart, that's fine; it certainly wasn't rocket science. But if we want to get really picky, I'd argue that the planning and tactics used throughout the show are hardly brilliant; I often find them to be clever and "smart," sure, based on the information the characters are working with. But timing is always a factor and it isn't always possible to get too analytical. And as long as we're on that train of thought, how "smart" is it for Buffy to ever patrol alone in the graveyards, in spite of her strength? If more than ten vamps rose around the same time, (which is not impossible in her world), and fought her simultaneously, I'd say she'd be in a pretty tough spot. But if that's where the argument takes us, we're no longer enjoying the show.
Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes, incredibly so. Buffy's patrols at least are based years of practice of fighting the same foes and empirical experience, like how many of them she tends to encounter, the strength of newly risen vampires and the (relative) ease at which she can kill them. Contrast that with the Ubervamp, and the fact that her only two encounters with the creature had ended with her being beaten to a bloody pulp.
 
Last edited:
But in other situations - unless it's apparent the danger is minimal - the Scoobies typically rush to her aid. In 'Triangle', as soon as Willow finds an opportunity to cast the spell without being beaten to a bloody pulp by Olaf, she does so. Nothing would've prevented the Ubervamp from simply snapping Buffy's neck in 'Showtime', for example.

They typically rush to her aid. True. But they don't always have to. And you're right, the Ubervamp could have snapped her neck. The fact that he doesn't is dramatic license in a sense; it's a way for the writers to hit the audience over the head with the fact that Buffy is in the fight of her life but that she can still pull through--ultimately the point of her staging the fight in the first place in front of the potentials. This happens a lot on Buffy. The writers stretch what we know to be possible based on the parameters they've established. You can dismiss it, but it's makes for good entertainment; it's not a documentary.

And you're missing my 'bottom line' point, which I've mentioned before as well. Inspiring.the Potentials and getting them to accept Buffy's leadership would've been better accomplished by good-decision making rather than a display of brute strength and pure luck.

What else can I say? I don't see it as pure luck, and I clearly can't be convinced that it is. I thought their decisions were good enough based on the information they had. I didn't see much brute strength at all (for a slayer who is already quite "brute" and I assume you are referring to a level of strength outside of her natural abilities). If Buffy was going simply "brute strength," she'd have been able to simply stake him in spite of his impenetrable chest.
And out of curiosity, what would you consider a "good decision" in Showtime, given the Scoobies' information and resources, or lack thereof?

Really? Because from what I saw, Buffy didn't use the location to her advantage until she was literally knocked against whatever object was there. For example, only when she was punched face first into some cement blocks, did she use them. And the tide of the battle was turned around by...a crossbow arrow, something that wasn't part of the location to begin with. I would've been more impressed if Buffy had just carried some barb wire with her to begin with.

I thought this particular example was in reference to the argument that she was not prepared when she went into battle. I think that by choosing a location which she could have used to her advantage, she was. Again, I agree that it's slightly ridiculous that she waited to use the equipment until later in the fight. And I maintain that it was the writers' attempt to illustrate a point, if poorly executed.


Even if the person is powerful, it sure doesn't hurt to have weapons, so why not just bring them along? Why take risks when it's not necessary

Again, the attempted analogy here, (brought to us by the Scoobies) is "Potential slayers with weapons can be as effective as Buffy without weapons." Or something along those lines. It isn't airtight and it doesn't add up perfectly, (obviously), but the inspirational message is there.

Well, in that sense, the demonstration in 'Showtime' doesn't work at all, since there are plenty of advantages, but she uses them poorly, and she literally needs an external source (the arrow) to turn things around.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that she uses them poorly, but she certainly waits to do so. See above re: (sometimes overabundant) use of dramatic license.


The arrow further confirms the point of the scene, at least for me: that Buffy's demonstration in 'Showtime' wasn't a sensible course of action at all.

You know how I see the arrow now, honestly? As silly as it is, I think it's their way of saying, "See? Buffy wasn't reckless--she intentionally brought the others along with weapons so that if need be, they could help." And it totally undermines everything else they tried to set up in the scene. No argument there. But that's the frustrating thing about delving too deep into these types of scenes; the writers often contradict themselves and one can find herself with a less than airtight argument on their behalf.

Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes, incredibly so. Buffy's patrols at least are based on empirical experience, like how many of them she tends to encounter, the strength of newly risen vampires and the (relative) ease at which she can kill them. Contrast that with the Ubervamp, and the fact that her only two encounters with the creature had ended with her being beaten to a bloody pulp.

I'd say it's slightly more than improbable. The fact that it hasn't happened before tells us that the odds are low, but the fact that it's quite easy for a whole bunch of people to be vamped on a given night and rise at the same time at a later point would be enough to make me wonder if tonight was the night there might just be too many vamps to handle alone. Hey, it took only one vampire to stab her with her own stake when when she was in excellent physical shape.
As for the Turok Han: she sets up the fight, herself. The fact that he's beaten her down twice before is chalked up to her own reasoning that in the past, she hadn't been ready, both physically and emotionally. That she had forgotten she's the thing monsters have nightmares about and having just remembered why, wants to show the potentials. Should that translate to a victory, in the show? I guess we'll never agree on that.
As I said way back in an earlier post, the outcome that follows this realization is obviously unrealistic in our world. We can either choose to accept it as a metaphor for what does go on in our lives and regard Buffy as an inspirational figure for fearlessly meeting the challenges in hers, or we can over analyze it until the entire show is really quite meaningless.
 
Last edited:
I don't think the debate raised by this question is a problem of over-analysing it to the point of meaninglessness, I think the difficulty is about being honest with yourself about why you have such confidence in certain interpretations of events in BTVS. I know that what happened happened and we can't change how things went in the series, but you can still question the quality of the explanations for certain things.

We're not expected to have scientific explanations for seemingly physically impossible things like in sci-fi, but we are expected to have consistent psychological traits in characters. For me, and based on other posts on here, I don't think Buffy's confidence quite tallies with her past psychological make-up. It only adds up if its viewed as a final, desperate action, but then why do they portray it as if Buffy and the scoobies are in complete control of the outcome? At other times we see Buffy with fighting talk when she's in a tough position, and that would make sense, but the line welcome to thunderdome is the line of a spectator not a participator, and I'd have thought all Buffy's energy would need to be directed into the fight after having got defeated so badly by it previously.

Well, in Showtime, the location of the fight is completely planned to give her an advantage.

The location was chosen by Xander so the potentials could be spectators whilst Buffy fought it, it wasn't chosen based on it giving Buffy any advantage over the ubervamp in the fight itself
 
Last edited:
It only adds up if its viewed as a final, desperate action, but then why do they portray it as if Buffy and the scoobies are in complete control of the outcome?

I think you managed to say it one sentence what I was trying to explain in half a dozen long posts. Thank you! The writers want to have it both ways - Buffy is desperate but she is somehow also in complete control, that's why there are spectators who don't do anything. And I hate it when writers do that.
 
I don't think the debate raised by this question is a problem of over-analysing it to the point of meaninglessness, I think the difficulty is about being honest with yourself about why you have such confidence in certain interpretations of events in BTVS. I know that what happened happened and we can't change how things went in the series, but you can still question the quality of the explanations for certain things.

The debate raised by this question is by no means an example of over-analysis. It's a simple, good question. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't post on the boards at all. But some of the arguments we've been having have been getting really specific, (ie the Ubervamp should have snapped her neck immediately so how is the scene believable), and that's where I have a problem.

We're not expected to have scientific explanations for seemingly physically impossible things like in sci-fi, but we are expected to have consistent psychological traits in characters. For me, and based on other posts on here, I don't think Buffy's confidence quite tallies with her past psychological make-up. It only adds up if its viewed as a final, desperate action, but then why do they portray it as if Buffy and the scoobies are in complete control of the outcome? At other times we see Buffy with fighting talk when she's in a tough position, and that would make sense, but the line welcome to thunderdome is the line of a spectator not a participator, and I'd have thought all Buffy's energy would need to be directed into the fight after having got defeated so badly by it previously.

Well, when I watch a show, I expect to see character growth. The growth needs to be consistent with who they are as a character, but I never expect somebody to stay exactly the same. Buffy's got a lot more confidence in this scene than she ever had before. That's one of the best things about it, to me. The notion that she would only become more and more emotionally strong after the series of trials she goes through is completely believable and consistent with her characterization.[/QUOTE]

The location was chosen by Xander so the potentials could be spectators whilst Buffy fought it, it wasn't chosen based on it giving Buffy any advantage over the ubervamp in the fight itself

My interpretation is that Xander chose the space partly because there was room for spectators and partly because Buffy would have plenty of equipment to use. I base that on the fact that this wouldn't be the first time they've used heavy construction materials in place of weapons. And since bringing a bag of weapons would defeat the purpose of the lesson, this was the best they could do. I can't possibly believe that they would have chosen an open field somewhere with nothing but grass and trees to stage their fight, had it had a place for the potentials to be spectators. The construction materials weren't a coincidence.

I don't think the Scoobies are in complete control of the outcome, and I don't think it was meant to be portrayed that way at all. I think they had an Ubervamp coming to their house, a captured warrior that they needed to rescue, and lots of frightened girls who assumed they were about to die and needed to watch someone fight and win. It was desperate, and it was the best they could do in order to try to rectify as many aspects of the situation as possible. But I don't think any of them felt the least bit in control. I think they were being stoic. They were there in order to help Buffy if she really needed it. But they were going to give her a chance to do what she needed to do. That's brave precisely because they knew they had very little control over the situation.
 
The debate raised by this question is by no means an example of over-analysis. It's a simple, good question. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't post on the boards at all. But some of the arguments we've been having have been getting really specific, (ie the Ubervamp should have snapped her neck immediately so how is the scene believable), and that's where I have a problem.
I didn't mean the scene wasn't believable because the Ubervamp didn't snap Buffy's neck right away. I found it problematic because Buffy and the Scoobies were taking so many risks against a new and powerful enemy, and the scene was set up both as a lesson and an actual 'epic' fight.

Well, when I watch a show, I expect to see character growth. The growth needs to be consistent with who they are as a character, but I never expect somebody to stay exactly the same. Buffy's got a lot more confidence in this scene than she ever had before.
Well, that's what's problematic (as well). This victory may have bolstered Buffy's confidence, but the fight plays out the way it does precisely because Buffy apparently had so much confidence to begin with - so much so that she chose to rely on (mostly) brute strength.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom