Question Why is Buffy so confident she can beat the uber vamp in showtime?

[Icarium]

My interpretation is that Xander chose the space partly because there was room for spectators and partly because Buffy would have plenty of equipment to use. I base that on the fact that this wouldn't be the first time they've used heavy construction materials in place of weapons. And since bringing a bag of weapons would defeat the purpose of the lesson

Why? Slayers don't usually fight with teeth and claws, you know. Not to mention that the Ccoobies regarding the stupid lesson as more important than increasing their chances of survival is incredibly silly.

I don't think the Scoobies are in complete control of the outcome, and I don't think it was meant to be portrayed that way at all. I think they had an Ubervamp coming to their house, a captured warrior that they needed to rescue, and lots of frightened girls who assumed they were about to die and needed to watch someone fight and win. It was desperate, and it was the best they could do in order to try to rectify as many aspects of the situation as possible.

Except we have seen dozen of times that letting Buffy fight with no plan and no weapons is not the best the Scoobies can do, not by a long shot.

But I don't think any of them felt the least bit in control. I think they were being stoic.

And we also know that Willow and Xander are not stoic - at least not when it comes to watching calmly while Buffy seems to be dying. They rush to help Buffy even when that seems suicidal - see for instance Xander against Spike in The harsh Light of the Day or Willow against Faith in This Year's Girl. They either thought Buffy was in complete control (despite their eyes telling them this was not the case) or they were wildly OOC.

Well, when I watch a show, I expect to see character growth. The growth needs to be consistent with who they are as a character, but I never expect somebody to stay exactly the same. Buffy's got a lot more confidence in this scene than she ever had before.

Only if you call being a kamikaze "having confidence", IMO. To me that was the exact opposite of growth. We have always seen that Buffy uses improvisation as a last resort tool - not as the one and only approach to a fight. In Teacher's Pet, I doubt they thought that the she-mantis was that strong but they still took the time to record some bat-noises which came in handy in the fight. In her first meeting with a vampire after being briefed about their nature, Willow is already throwing holy water at them rather than blindly rush and hope for the best. Suddenly in S7 Buffy somehow needs to win by sheer brute force because "that's the lesson"?!? Okay, then in S9 she will probably start flying by waving her arms because the plot will need that to happen

 

[Doppelgang]

The debate raised by this question is by no means an example of over-analysis. It's a simple, good question. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't post on the boards at all. But some of the arguments we've been having have been getting really specific, (ie the Ubervamp should have snapped her neck immediately so how is the scene believable), and that's where I have a problem.

I definitely agree that arguments shouldn't get over-specific, as you can get caught in a sea of infinite possiblities of if this happened then that should happen etc, it's better to stay focused on the main central points of the argument.

Well, when I watch a show, I expect to see character growth. The growth needs to be consistent with who they are as a character, but I never expect somebody to stay exactly the same. Buffy's got a lot more confidence in this scene than she ever had before. That's one of the best things about it, to me. The notion that she would only become more and more emotionally strong after the series of trials she goes through is completely believable and consistent with her characterization.

Yes, but you don't become magically emotionally stronger when you get beaten down a few times, you have to go back and regroup and come up with a new plan, seeking help of others etc.., rushing to stage a spectacle as she did was to add to the stress she would have already been feeling in the situation so didn't quite seem to me quite an appropriate move to make.

My interpretation is that Xander chose the space partly because there was room for spectators and partly because Buffy would have plenty of equipment to use. I base that on the fact that this wouldn't be the first time they've used heavy construction materials in place of weapons. And since bringing a bag of weapons would defeat the purpose of the lesson, this was the best they could do. I can't possibly believe that they would have chosen an open field somewhere with nothing but grass and trees to stage their fight, had it had a place for the potentials to be spectators. The construction materials weren't a coincidence.

The reason they chose the location is because it was all they could think of as a venue for a smackdown. Buffy is always resourceful and will use whatever is there that can be to her advantage, in this case it happened to include construction materials, so in my view I think they were a coincidence and the main reason for them being there was so the potentials could all have a front row view of the fight.

But I don't think any of them felt the least bit in control. I think they were being stoic. They were there in order to help Buffy if she really needed it. But they were going to give her a chance to do what she needed to do. That's brave precisely because they knew they had very little control over the situation.

But as the Uber Vamp wasn't interested in fighting the slayer to the death, its task was to attack the potentials, I would have thought it should have been trying to do this at the first opportunity, then we would have had a good chance to see how they weren't in control like in season 5 when Buffy has to deal with Glory trying to take Dawn away. Instead the uber vamp just stands around and waits whilst Buffy talks about welcoming them to thunderdome. It was brave certainly, but in an out of character kind of way, and the control they had of the situation was much greater than in her previous fights with the uber vamp almost inexplicably.

What would have been more likely is the uber vamp getting on top in the fight and then going for the potentials and Buffy and the gang having to take drastic measures of some sort, but they seem to avoid this in favour of a Buffy wins because she says so approach. They hadn't resorted to this approach before in BTVS and they avoided it as well later on in the battle with Caleb, but with the ubervamps, its as if they just weren't any good for making a decent storyline around because they didn't speak or have emotions or anything. This, for me, took away from the believability of this middle part of season 7 as I can't go along with the psychological motivations of the main character Buffy and the main villain the Uber Vamp.

The idea that they were being stoical is the closest to a good explanation I've heard but I don't think that tallys with setting up an arena for the potentials to be spectators in. If they had tried to run away somewhere and had just happened to be spectators that would be different, but they planned for them to be spectators which in an extreme situation of stoicism I don't think there would be the time or the motivation for.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Ok guys. It's now 3 on 1 and to be honest, though each one of you makes excellent points every time I try to defend my reasoning, (which, btw, I often agree with individually), I remain unconvinced where the bigger picture is concerned. Since it would be incredibly difficult to address the most recent onslaught of comments one by one, let me try to end this by trying to wrap everything together and addressing as many main points as I can.

1. All, or some of you, take issue with the lack of planning. I insisted, (and still do), that in this case there wasn't time for a great plan. There was Buffy's strength, a good place to fight with lots of things that could be used as weapons, and a powerful witch waiting to jump in and help.
You cite examples in which the Scoobies *did* plan ahead and insist that because they did it then, they can do it now. This situation was unique in that there was a lesson to be taught and a very short amount of time in which to do anything about the Ubervamp who they knew was coming to Buffy's house. Part of that lesson, btw, is that sometimes you don't have time, and you do have to think on your feet.
And by the way, if you think there was a better way to have handled it, please share--I'd love to hear it. I've addressed a couple of ideas on this thread already, stating why they either wouldn't work in my opinion, or would make for boring TV.

2. You insist that the Xander's choice of location had nothing to do with the fact that there was plenty of equipment that an expert like Buffy could use in her favor. I have to disagree--what more can I say? Putting Buffy in an arbitrary space with no weapons would be "suicidal," as you say. That's not what happened here. Why do you insist that it did? Let's give them more credit and say that they picked the site for a reason. I don't see a reason to believe otherwise, as it was always quite clear to me.

3. You think it's ridiculous that Buffy didn't bring traditional weapons with her. First of all, let's just be clear: there were certainly weapons of this kind in the hands of the girls. And as I've said a thousand times, the equipment could, and was, used as weaponry. I'm not making up the reasoning for that, btw. I'm taking it directly from Buffy's quote in Potential in which she explains that a Slayer should be able to defend herself using almost anything. Is that a reference to "improvisational" technique? Yes. Would Buffy have tried it if she didn't have a point to make, unless she was cornered and had no other choice? NO! Did she make her point loud and clear when she defeated the Ubervamp without traditional weapons? I think she did. Was the whole thing a bit of an exaggerated triumph? Yes. Did it make for a great story? Yes.

4. Some of you imply that I'm confusing blatant suicidal tendencies with emotional growth. What can I say? I watched Buffy's confidence develop on screen before me throughout the course of those 7 seasons, and I see incredible strength. I think, given the fact that it is her calling to be on the front lines all of the time, and given the fact that she accepts this and her overall mission as a Slayer, one could argue that there is something reckless in that. Lots of the positions she is put in are extremely dangerous, and even when a plan is well thought out, (by Scooby standards), there is never very much about which to be certain. Take Graduation Day for example. I mean, come on, let's think about that plan for a sec. "You guys, go tell all of the class of '99 that monsters are real and that they will need to fight for their lives against vampires and a giant snake demon, even though most of them have never so much as taken karate in their lives. Quickly. Then, I'm gonna appeal to the Mayor/snake/demon's human side in order to lure him into the school so we can blow it up. Oh, yeah, I can't actually guarantee that when the Mayor becomes a snake he'll still understand language or have any semblance of emotion or memory from when he was human, but I'm betting that he will. And I'm betting that you'll all be strong enough to defend yourselves with a bunch of weapons you've barely even held before, let alone used effectively. Now go!" I mean, NOTHING about that plan, as I see it, was a sure bet. Something to really hang your hat on. But she's the slayer, and she's got to do SOMETHING. Does that make her suicidal? No. It makes her a hero.
And that's what I took away from Showtime. By the time we reach this episode, Buffy has really grown. She believed in herself very much in Graduation, but even more so now. When she stood in that dining room with bruises all over her face and (possible) internal bleeding and said "there is only one thing on this Earth more powerful than evil. And that's us," I believed that she believed it.
She was enough because she had to be. She didn't know what was coming next but it was sure to be worse than one Ubervamp. If she couldn't take him out with all the skills and all the guts she'd developed over the years, (and oh yeah, a lot of cinderblocks and a powerful witch), then they probably weren't going to stand a chance.

 

[Icarium]

And that's what I took away from Showtime. By the time we reach this episode, Buffy has really grown. She believed in herself very much in Graduation, but even more so now. When she stood in that dining room with bruises all over her face and (possible) internal bleeding and said "there is only one thing on this Earth more powerful than evil. And that's us," I believed that she believed it.

And I believed that the doctor in Normal Again who said Buffy was delusional might really have been onto something, even if he was part of a delusion himself. 🙂 This probably has to do a lot with my opinion about the episode (or the whole season for that matter).

Seriously, we seem to be going in circles, so I will just finish by repeating that Buffy winning because she had to is not the story I cared for at all. Reminds me of Joss admitting that there was no good reason for making the Turok hans so much weaker in Chosen but he had to do it becuase otherwise they would have won.

 

[randiann]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought buffy winn because she has to was about 7 seasons of the show.... Shes the heroine, that's what she does: defeat the bad guy.


I have no qualms with showtime. I enjoyed it. Buffy wins; happens in most episodes one way or another.
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[caitaintdead]

Why is Buffy so confident in fighting vampires and winning after being stabbed in Fool For Love?

Why is Willow so confident in her magical abilities throughout Season 6 after disasters such as Something Blue?

Why is Giles still confident in his knowledge and ability to research after making errors such as in Prophecy Girl?

 

[Doppelgang]

Aren't those questions for a separate thread 😕

 

[caitaintdead]

Aren't those questions for a separate thread 😕

They were questions designed to heighten what is being discussed. Mainly, why do people and characters have confidence in themselves when they don't really know if they can do something.

 

[Doppelgang]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought buffy winn because she has to was about 7 seasons of the show.... Shes the heroine, that's what she does: defeat the bad guy.


I have no qualms with showtime. I enjoyed it. Buffy wins; happens in most episodes one way or another.
Posted via Mobile Device

That misses the point that sparked this particular debate. Namely that in showtime she seemed to win in a manner too obviously contrived by the writers of the episode for that specific circumstance. When she struggles to match previous bad guys she has to go back and think and try something different, such as getting the help of the scoobies, finding a special weapon, finding a weakness of the bad guy etc.. In this case she specifically avoids help from the scoobies, doesn't look for an alternate plan, just goes in and fights the ubervamp on the same terms in which it had beaten her so easily in the last two fights, and expects to win so obviously as to be able to put on a show for the potentials in the process. I think it's just not psychologically credible for her to act like this, considering how different her response was to not being able to beat Glory, Adam etc.

Also, if the show was just about Buffy winning as is suggested then why does she die in season 5 and in season 1 temporarily? The show may well have ended with season 5 then it would have been a completely different way of ending it. I don't think the heroine is there to always win, the heroine is there to do good and do the right thing and to do her best to defeat the bad guys, but that doesn't mean always winning. What did Buffy win in season 6 finale? What did Buffy win in Season 5 finale? What did Buffy win in season 4 finale? In season 2? Even season 3 they beat the mayor but at a great cost. As Angel left and a former friend Faith was left in a coma. None of these things were just one-dimensional about who wins and who loses and was what made them realistic storylines, and is what Showtime drifted away from towards the one-dimensional approach of being just about who wins and who loses.

If Buffy had just been like that the whole way through it would not have been half the show that it in fact was and is. But anyway, in regards to parts of season 7, this has been all established to be a case of Joss Whedon being tired out having too much on at the same time as other people have pointed out to me, and so it was difficult to keep the same level of depth and realism going for all the projects he was involved in at this time. I can fully understand this, yet it's interesting to speculate as a result of this how and where things could or should have been done a bit differently to be more realistic or entertaining in season 7.

---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

They were questions designed to heighten what is being discussed. Mainly, why do people and characters have confidence in themselves when they don't really know if they can do something.

I still think that might be suited to another thread, given this section is about season 7 specifically, and is not questioning the usual confidence Buffy and other characters have in themselves, but just the specific confidence Buffy had to defeat a bad guy (The uber vamp) who had beaten her previously, using the exact same methods that had gotten her beaten so badly in their previous fights

 

[The Unspoken]

Why is Buffy so confident in fighting vampires and winning after being stabbed in Fool For Love?

It's called a fluke. Might as well claim a fender bender is proof that someone should have their driving license revoked. And do we see such a thing ever happen again in the show?

Why is Willow so confident in her magical abilities throughout Season 6 after disasters such as Something Blue?

'Something Blue'...isn't that the episode where Willow alters the very fabric of reality simply by wishing it? If anything, that should only increase her confidence in her magical abilities, while also driving her to be more cautious, which she is for seasons 4 and 5.
Also, the magic mishaps in season 6 happen because Willow uses magic gratuitously and without much judgment, whereas the disaster in 'Something Blue' is a direct result of her being emotionally distraught, i.e. a fluke.

Why is Giles still confident in his knowledge and ability to research after making errors such as in Prophecy Girl?

Because they usually deal with hard facts rather than cryptic prophecies? And it's actually Buffy who erred in this episode and went to face the Master against Giles' wishes, thus making the prophecy a self-fulfilling one.

 

[randiann]

That misses the point that sparked this particular debate. Namely that in showtime she seemed to win in a manner too obviously contrived by the writers of the episode for that specific circumstance. When she struggles to match previous bad guys she has to go back and think and try something different, such as getting the help of the scoobies, finding a special weapon, finding a weakness of the bad guy etc.. In this case she specifically avoids help from the scoobies, doesn't look for an alternate plan, just goes in and fights the ubervamp on the same terms in which it had beaten her so easily in the last two fights, and expects to win so obviously as to be able to put on a show for the potentials in the process. I think it's just not psychologically credible for her to act like this, considering how different her response was to not being able to beat Glory, Adam etc Also, if the show was just about Buffy winning as is suggested then why does she die in season 5 and in season 1 temporarily?

I think you missed my point in making this statement. I wasn't providing an in depth analysis of the show, rather a very short statement summarizing the essence of 99.99% of buffy's fights. She beats the bad guy. At any cost, including the cost of her own life. Plus, the fight with the uber vamp is not the season finale, so to compare it to such is a bit silly in my opinion.

I don't see what the big deal in buffy winning a fight is. She is the slayer. She says several times throughout the series that in the end, the slayer is the one to make the hard choices and fight the big fight. What is so wrong with her winning when one: she was expecting the attack (unlike before), and two: she knows what strengths and weaknesses her event has. Those are two vital bits of info she didn't have in the previous fight. Couple that with her picking the site she did (cause really could have picked a football field or school auditorium and had the seating she wanted and less availability if weapons, instead she was smart) and I don't see the problem in her winning.

If you don't like the ep, just skip it and get over it.

 

[Carrrrgh]

I don't think Buffy was that confident she was going to win but she was confident she was going to give it her best shot and prove to the girls that she is strong. I think it was more of a personal fight for Buffy to also prove to herself that "she can". I personally believe that She, Willow and Xander had a plan worked out where if something was going wrong, they would intervene and help her. Fortunately that did not happen and Buffy won on her own terms in what I think is an important fight in the season. It showed us that Buffy can beat anything if she just knows her enemies well enough to find their weak spots.

IMO this fight was more symbolic rather than literally about her fighting the ubervamp. It was symbolic in the sense that it's sort of bringing back the old Buffy that had all this confidence and never doubted herself. It was nice to see the old Buffy back after she won this fight.

 

[The Unspoken]

She beats the bad guy. At any cost, including the cost of her own life.

I don't see what the big deal in buffy winning a fight is. She is the slayer. She says several times throughout the series that in the end, the slayer is the one to make the hard choices and fight the big fight.

It's these kind of fallacious arguments that I and others were responding to. Saying Buffy wins simply because 'she's the Slayer' and because 'she has to' (the episode itself is guilty of this as well) is an appeal to authority, and not an actual explanation for Buffy's victory. The characters themselves don't know that the show is named after Buffy, and that she will therefore always (eventually) prevail. Yet, Buffy's entire 'strategy' in this episode basically exists of 'I win, because I'm the Slayer'.

Buffy doesn't utilize her surroundings all that well. For example, she's literally smacked face first into some cement blocks before she uses them. It takes an arbitrary, external factor (the arrow from Kennedy's crossbow) for Buffy to turn the battle in her tide and she doesn't seem to have given any thought as how to kill the 'stake-proof' Ubervamp safe for a last-minute grab for some barb wire that was conveniently lying around.

 

[zobothehobo]

She does win because she's the slayer. At this point, she had no other option. it was kill or be killed. The only way Buffy was able to win that fight is that she believed "I'm going to kill, not be killed." Confidence goes a long way. She was so confident she was going to kill that ubervamp because she had to be. There was no other alternative. She is the slayer, therefore, she wins. If that's what had to go through her mind to get her to win and if that's what the potentials needed to see to get them to at least half shut up... that's what had to happen. And it's what did happen.

 

[Icarium]

Saying Buffy wins simply because 'she's the Slayer' and because 'she has to' (the episode itself is guilty of this as well) is an appeal to authority, and not an actual explanation for Buffy's victory. The characters themselves don't know that the show is named after Buffy, and that she will therefore always (eventually) prevail. Yet, Buffy's entire 'strategy' in this episode basically exists of 'I win, because I'm the Slayer'.

Word. A sentence even. 🙂 I just don't like it when the characters are rewarded for being complete idiots and that's pretty much S7 in a nutshell - Buffy comes up with an incredibly stupid plan which somehow works because the writers say so. Rinse and repeat. Not only is this very boring but it also seems very condescending to the viewers. Like the writers couldn't be bothered to think of anything else and had Buffy winning just because she was the heroine.

If that's what had to go through her mind to get her to win and if that's what the potentials needed to see to get them to at least half shut up... that's what had to happen. And it's what did happen.

I didn't know Buffy had a reality-bending skills. Although, this would explain a lot of S7...

 

[Doppelgang]

I think you missed my point in making this statement. I wasn't providing an in depth analysis of the show, rather a very short statement summarizing the essence of 99.99% of buffy's fights. She beats the bad guy. At any cost, including the cost of her own life. Plus, the fight with the uber vamp is not the season finale, so to compare it to such is a bit silly in my opinion.

I don't see what the big deal in buffy winning a fight is. She is the slayer. She says several times throughout the series that in the end, the slayer is the one to make the hard choices and fight the big fight. What is so wrong with her winning when one: she was expecting the attack (unlike before), and two: she knows what strengths and weaknesses her event has. Those are two vital bits of info she didn't have in the previous fight. Couple that with her picking the site she did (cause really could have picked a football field or school auditorium and had the seating she wanted and less availability if weapons, instead she was smart) and I don't see the problem in her winning.

If you don't like the ep, just skip it and get over it.

I just want a debate about it rather than a shouting match of people just asserting things without looking over the arguments people have already made in this thread, thats all.

There's been some good arguments put forward as to what a good explanation for Buffy's mind-set may be by Gum Gnome33 on here, earlier in the thread. I don't comlpletely go along with it, but its alot better than the argument that she wins because she must win as the slayer, thats no good for explaining her motivation as a mortal being facing the tough circumstances she faced of the uber vamp. Her motivation can't be realistically explained in the 3rd person like that, it just doesn't work.

As for getting over it, I'd stopped looking at this thread a week or so ago and I've moved on in my season 7 rewatch, and started to see something a bit more realistic and positive in the potentials storyline in the episode potential, with Dawn thinking she may be a potential. My response was only because you clearly hadn't looked over arguments already made in this thread, so maybe you have something to get over

 

[randiann]

Nope, nothing for me to get over. My whole point of that first post I made was to very simply boil down the plot of most buffy eps, and to take the yone of the thread down a notch. Theres a difference been debating and fighting, and when you feel passionately about a mindset it's easy for that line to be blurred. Believe me, this is a line I know well, and there's more than a few people here that'll tell you that.

As for the get over it remark, all that was meant was if the ep bothers you this badly, then skip it. It's not as if it's the turning point that all of season 7 hinges on. Its what I do with eps like beer bad that I can't stand.

 

[Doppelgang]

There is a thin line between debating and fighting, and thats what gave the debate on here a bit of an interest. There weren't any personal attacks and insults, just a debate about the question title of the thread. No one got hurt by it as far as I know, and there were some interesting things for me to learn from it. Yes its not good when it looks like its 3 against 1, but Gun Gnome33 defended her side of the argument very well and pretty much had the last say in that argument, with us just having to agree to disagree.

It's never going to be one of my favourite episodes, but it's still an important one, as I liked all the tension that built up to it, the turok han arising under the control of the first, capturing Spike and beating Buffy in a fight, the potentials appearing and being worried about what they'd got themselves into coming to sunnydale. Alot of this tension was released in this episode so I have to struggle through it, it's not like it was a just a filler episode. As a result it was interesting to discuss a few qualms I had with the episode. The end result of the episode did not concern me so much as the means by which they got there, so I can comfortably move on from where it leaves off in the future eps. I'll just have to think of it as a blip in the writing, that could have been corrected and allowed for but was simply missed. We're all human and make mistakes after all.

 

[caitaintdead]

I just don't understand what the big problem is with believing in what you can do. To me the episode was about having the confidence and strength to face your battles head on. Show to the potentials that just because you get beaten once doesn't mean you can't get back up and do it again.

Last season my football team lost against a team 1-0. The next time we faced them we did not revise our tactics, simply went in knowing we had to win. Our tactics work most of the time, and us losing wasn't due to us being terrible at what we do, or going in without a plan. We faced them, knowing we had to win, and knowing we had to be first to the ball every time, and simply want it more. We beat them 4-0.

Confidence in yourself is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[The Unspoken]

I just don't understand what the big problem is with believing in what you can do. To me the episode was about having the confidence and strength to face your battles head on. Show to the potentials that just because you get beaten once doesn't mean you can't get back up and do it again.

There are limits to what even Buffy can do. In previous episodes, these limits were compensated by good planning and help from her friends. That's not the case here. While Buffy's abilities fluctuate somewhat depending on her confidence, she can't simply 'will' herself to defeat an extremely powerful enemy, it doesn't work like that. Hilariously enough, this episode proves that: it takes an arbitrary, external factor (the arrow from Kennedy's crossbow) to turn the battle in Buffy's tide and for her to win.

Last season my football team lost against a team 1-0. The next time we faced them we did not revise our tactics, simply went in knowing we had to win. Our tactics work most of the time, and us losing wasn't due to us being terrible at what we do, or going in without a plan. We faced them, knowing we had to win, and knowing we had to be first to the ball every time, and simply want it more. We beat them 4-0.

That's a horrible analogy. Having confidence in winning a sport is a matter entirely different. Feel free to correct me, but as far as I know, football doesn't involve the other players constantly trying to snap your neck or rip your throat out. And a football game consists of dozens of players, a referee, etc.: it's by its very nature far more arbitrary and manipulable than the fight in this episode.

Confidence in yourself is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Not when it comes at the expense of the common sense and basic competence that can be expected from even the most mentally challenged of people.