Why is Xander with Dawn?

[SavvyScoobie]

I did need to bring up trans kids because I am passionate about that issue specifically because they are children and I think kids are off limits when it comes to sex (obviously) & if they aren’t old enough to consent to sex they aren’t old enough to consent to a sex change. and in defending Dawn and Xander- I want to make it extremely clear that I am passionately for the right of kids to be kids. Dawn however was not a child when she got with Xander. I feel like I have to defend Xander (even though I don’t particularly care for him) & Angel because everyone acts like they are pedo child predators…. As if Buffy & Dawn are helpless, easily influenced children who didn’t consent & the men didn’t truly love them. My uncle was 20 years older than my aunt but when you’re both adults nobody cares nor should they

Again...the trans argument still doesn't make sense. Were talking about pedophelia and creepy behavior, and nowhere did I bring up sex. Be passionate about whatever you want; I'm just here to talk about Buffy. It's still irrelevant because Dawn or Xander aren't even trans. So idk what your talking about

Why is Dawn getting with Xander, (because she's of legal age) fine, but 16 yr old Buffy getting with Angel also fine? One is legal and one is illegal. Unknown fact but your frontal lobe fully matures at 25. Laws have always been stupid, but Angel's and Buffy's ages were like 16 and 26 (a clear violation of laws). You can't use a point and then later contradict yourself.

It doesn't have to be straight up illegal for fans to feel icky about it. It's more of the dynamic they used to have that makes it strange. Because the foundation of this relationship is more brother/sister to me.

Anyways aside from that, in my personal opinion Xander and Dawn are gross no matter how you try to twist it. I don't wanna see Xander get with the girl he used to...babysit. That leaves a gross taste in my mouth eugh....

 

[ILLYRIAN]

There's a load of do-gooders here,
should Spike bother about being with Dawn? He is a vampire and as such he has no inhibitions so there's nothing stopping him.
Of corse(?) if AI was used for both the actors being dead, maybe portray them as proper ghosts? That'd bring Willow deeper into the story.

 

[thetopher]

Xander and Dawn is one of the ....least bad parts of the comics. And its less gross than Buffy getting with her abuser, so there's that.

 

[fauxindigo]

Again...the trans argument still doesn't make sense. Were talking about pedophelia and creepy behavior, and nowhere did I bring up sex. Be passionate about whatever you want; I'm just here to talk about Buffy. It's still irrelevant because Dawn or Xander aren't even trans. So idk what your talking about

Why is Dawn getting with Xander, (because she's of legal age) fine, but 16 yr old Buffy getting with Angel also fine? One is legal and one is illegal. Unknown fact but your frontal lobe fully matures at 25. Laws have always been stupid, but Angel's and Buffy's ages were like 16 and 26 (a clear violation of laws). You can't use a point and then later contradict yourself.

It doesn't have to be straight up illegal for fans to feel icky about it. It's more of the dynamic they used to have that makes it strange. Because the foundation of this relationship is more brother/sister to me.

Anyways aside from that, in my personal opinion Xander and Dawn are gross no matter how you try to twist it. I don't wanna see Xander get with the girl he used to...babysit. That leaves a gross taste in my mouth eugh....

You don’t know what I’m talking about ? We are talking about minors and the issue of trans kids is similar in how we are discussing Dawn essentially being too young to consent to something sexual. Why aren’t you making the connection? I brought up your point as well about the frontal lobe not even fully developing until the mid 20s because people will defend a child transitioning their gender yet have a problem with Xander and Dawn ending up together (even though she’s an adult by that time) bc he used to watch her ? He wasn’t babysitting -she was 14; yes a minor, but not a baby- babysitting makes it sound worse/more predatory than it was. They don’t have to be trans for the comparison to be apt and pedophilia is related to sex & Dawn/Xander relationship is romantic so yes we are in fact talking about sex in this thread. And I looked it up- the age of consent in approximately 30 USA states is 16 years old so again- Buffy was not 11 or 12 years old; I understand it’s a very fine line and is still icky (I’ve always liked older men and always found men( or women for that matter) going after younger people really gross- but sometimes it just happens; my man is 10 years older than me) and I never miss an opportunity to trash Xander but I resent the idea of him and Angel being pedophiles bc I believe they both truly loved Buffy & Dawn & I don’t believe the girls were preyed upon - both relationships were organic and wholesome (even with all the drama Angel(us) brought to Buffy’s life).

 

[SavvyScoobie]

You don’t know what I’m talking about ? We are talking about minors and the issue of trans kids is similar in how we are discussing Dawn essentially being too young to consent to something sexual. Why aren’t you making the connection? I brought up your point as well about the frontal lobe not even fully developing until the mid 20s because people will defend a child transitioning their gender yet have a problem with Xander and Dawn ending up together (even though she’s an adult by that time) bc he used to watch her ? He wasn’t babysitting -she was 14; yes a minor, but not a baby- babysitting makes it sound worse/more predatory than it was. They don’t have to be trans for the comparison to be apt and pedophilia is related to sex & Dawn/Xander relationship is romantic so yes we are in fact talking about sex in this thread. And I looked it up- the age of consent in approximately 30 USA states is 16 years old so again- Buffy was not 11 or 12 years old; I understand it’s a very fine line and is still icky (I’ve always liked older men and always found men( or women for that matter) going after younger people really gross- but sometimes it just happens; my man is 10 years older than me) and I never miss an opportunity to trash Xander but I resent the idea of him and Angel being pedophiles bc I believe they both truly loved Buffy & Dawn & I don’t believe the girls were preyed upon - both relationships were organic and wholesome (even with all the drama Angel(us) brought to Buffy’s life).

Age of consent is 16 for when both parties are minors. Angel was 26 when he turned and Buffy is 16!

Also the trans argument has to do with transitioning at a young age, it's about sex change but not sexual intercourse or relationships. Dawn consenting to a relationship is different than if Dawn would have transitioned at a young age. But I digress, I'm just confused as to why its relevant because I hate the narrative that trans people promote pedophelia. I'm just gonna end that discussion here.

Like older men all you want, but don't be surprised when other people find it icky! It's just my opinion, I found the relationship stupid due to the dynamic change. I'm not trying to make an argument that its illegal or something I'm just saying that in my opinion it's disgusting and doesn't make sense. I don't care if other people like it, because it takes too much effort to change that opinion when pedo behavior is so ingrained into society. I mean we have p*rn categories called 'barely legal'!

It seems like your taking my opinions on Dawn and Xander a lil too personal, try to be secure in your relationship, as long as you're happy idc!

 

[fauxindigo]

Age of consent is 16 for when both parties are minors. Angel was 26 when he turned and Buffy is 16!

Also the trans argument has to do with transitioning at a young age, it's about sex change but not sexual intercourse or relationships. Dawn consenting to a relationship is different than if Dawn would have transitioned at a young age. But I digress, I'm just confused as to why its relevant because I hate the narrative that trans people promote pedophelia. I'm just gonna end that discussion here.

Like older men all you want, but don't be surprised when other people find it icky! It's just my opinion, I found the relationship stupid due to the dynamic change. I'm not trying to make an argument that its illegal or something I'm just saying that in my opinion it's disgusting and doesn't make sense. I don't care if other people like it, because it takes too much effort to change that opinion when pedo behavior is so ingrained into society. I mean we have p*rn categories called 'barely legal'!

It seems like your taking my opinions on Dawn and Xander a lil too personal, try to be secure in your relationship, as long as you're happy idc!

I’m very secure- that’s why I state my opinions so directly. I met my man when I was 18 and he was 28- if it was 2 years earlier I was 16 and he was 26 literally Buffy & Angels (human) age so I do kind of take it personal; I’m not insulted or not understanding where you’re coming from I’m just giving a different perspective. so obviously it’s a fine line and yes, men that have a thing for specifically younger is creepy and gross but sometimes it just happens for real, with love and there’s nothing wrong with it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

For most of America's history, many people lived in small towns and the lack of opportunity to have a wide selection of potential mates meant that there were a lot of mismatched age relationships. One thing to notice is that Buffy had finally decided in the comics that maybe she should try for a relationship with Xander and that's when she overheard Xander and Dawn planning to be together. It's not as if Buffy didn't have the opportunity before but like Spike said, she needs a bit of monster in her man and that wasn't Xander (other than the fact that he remained a demon magnet). Xander and Dawn had an adult comprehension of what a relationship entailed, so I don't get the idea that anything was exploitive or icky about their relationship. In fact, it looks like it could be one of the more solid relationships in the Jossverse.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

I’m very secure- that’s why I state my opinions so directly. I met my man when I was 18 and he was 28- if it was 2 years earlier I was 16 and he was 26 literally Buffy & Angels (human) age so I do kind of take it personal; I’m not insulted or not understanding where you’re coming from I’m just giving a different perspective. so obviously it’s a fine line and yes, men that have a thing for specifically younger is creepy and gross but sometimes it just happens for real, with love and there’s nothing wrong with it.

So is it creepy or gross or is there nothing wrong with it?

 

[fauxindigo]

So is it creepy or gross or is there nothing wrong with it?

it depends on the people and the situation; it’s case by case. I’ve already stated that on paper yes super old/mature/experienced Angel pursuing 16 year old Buffy can certainly be considered creepy and/or gross but in the context of the story & the characters - it is not creepy or gross & the same goes for Xander/Dawn in my opinion.

 

[Stake fodder]

I think one reason is that in TV series (and book series, too), they want to stick with characters they have that viewers are familiar with, so they fix up two people already on the show. Season 8 is a comic, but it still tracks. We don't have to get familiar with a new character, who would likely have no point except to be Xander's girlfriend. Also, it gives Xander and Dawn a plot thread in the comics.

 

[fauxindigo]

I think one reason is that in TV series (and book series, too), they want to stick with characters they have that viewers are familiar with, so they fix up two people already on the show. Season 8 is a comic, but it still tracks. We don't have to get familiar with a new character, who would likely have no point except to be Xander's girlfriend. Also, it gives Xander and Dawn a plot thread in the comics.

They also have other relationships in season 8 (Xander w/Renee & Dawn w/Kenny- both end badly) so she was even older and had more experience with guys by the time she ended up with Xander

 

[thetopher]

Surely its not just about an age different but about the unequal power dynamics of old and young that often goes along with an age difference (no, not always, but its something people look for).

In most modern contexts one would wonder what reason an older person would have to hang around with a younger person for a substantive period of time; teacher and student perhaps would be the most common but there are others.
So there's the question of 'opportunity' and the motives involved, but the power dynamics are the biggest question. Somebody older and worldlier could, in certain situations, be able to manipulate, persuade or groom a younger person into a sexual relationship, a younger person might be looking for some sort of substitute stabilizing figure in their life- parental- and the show does like playing with Freud- so that can be a factor.

But neither opportunity or power dynamic of Buffy and Angel are shown to be sketchy- to me at least; Angel is in the same line of work for sure, he has been given the offer to help Buffy by positive balancing forces in the world because of his unique condition. That's the reason why.
Power dynamics; Angel is worldly in some matters but not really romantically, he's too socially awkward, so its hard to see his interactions with Buffy as grooming or manipulation...but boy, some people sure try.

As for the power dynamic, its almost always in Buffy's favour; she kicks his ass the first time they meet, she initiates the first kiss, the first date, the first serious romantic overtures, the first (and only) night of intimacy. So....where's the unfair power dynamic involving a predatory manipulative older figure? Well, uh, he gives her his jacket I guess, and a ring one time, maybe a book of poetry? She thinks that's neat. God, he's such a Machiavellian genius at getting Buffy! Or at least that's what his detractors assert

 

[SavvyScoobie]

Surely its not just about an age different but about the unequal power dynamics of old and young that often goes along with an age difference (no, not always, but its something people look for).

In most modern contexts one would wonder what reason an older person would have to hang around with a younger person for a substantive period of time; teacher and student perhaps would be the most common but there are others.
So there's the question of 'opportunity' and the motives involved, but the power dynamics are the biggest question. Somebody older and worldlier could, in certain situations, be able to manipulate, persuade or groom a younger person into a sexual relationship, a younger person might be looking for some sort of substitute stabilizing figure in their life- parental- and the show does like playing with Freud- so that can be a factor.

But neither opportunity or power dynamic of Buffy and Angel are shown to be sketchy- to me at least; Angel is in the same line of work for sure, he has been given the offer to help Buffy by positive balancing forces in the world because of his unique condition. That's the reason why.
Power dynamics; Angel is worldly in some matters but not really romantically, he's too socially awkward, so its hard to see his interactions with Buffy as grooming or manipulation...but boy, some people sure try.

As for the power dynamic, its almost always in Buffy's favour; she kicks his ass the first time they meet, she initiates the first kiss, the first date, the first serious romantic overtures, the first (and only) night of intimacy. So....where's the unfair power dynamic involving a predatory manipulative older figure? Well, uh, he gives her his jacket I guess, and a ring one time, maybe a book of poetry? She thinks that's neat. God, he's such a Machiavellian genius at getting Buffy! Or at least that's what his detractors assert

He sucks at social situations yes, but he's still weirdly possessive (red flag). Him and Buffy's early relationship consist of Buffy trying to make him jealous and Angel getting mad and disappearing for a couple of days. Then they make up and the cycle repeats blah blah blah.

He was given the opportunity to help Buffy yes, but that didn't mean he had to go and date her. 😂

And the show added that weird detail of 'I've been watching you since you were 15', obviously I'm gonna feel uncomfortable when I watch that shit. It didn't even further the plot smh

Physically Buffy was strong yes, but she's never really been fine mentally. Being physically strong does not mean you are exempt from predatory behavior. Spike is horrible to her in 'Seeing Red' but she's still physically strong enough to fight him off. And this whole 'but she can fight him off if worse comes to worse' doesn't make any sense because these situations shouldn't have happened in the first place. But it's the 90s, and most people's concerns were that he was a vampire, and not that he turned at 26 and that Buffy is 16. Yikes. And what I can't get over is that he did this all with a soul. He's like the Drake of BTVS.

Not to that mention that Buffy's daddy issues never help out during her relationships. Mentally she was very vulnerable and had no idea what she was doing. Daddy issues plus parentification. And in my personal experience people with daddy issues tend to go for older men and fall victim to predatory relationship dynamics a lot more. And its very harmful to say 'well she was more physically powerful'. But she was still 16, and she very clearly acted like it too.

Buffy is usually a sound voice of a reason in the show...except when it comes to Angel. She drops everything, makes selfish decisions, etc.

Also when they have their first time after Buffy turns 18, like dude were you waiting for her to be legal? If I was in Angel's shoes not in a million years would I do this.

But I get it, the older fans tend to be more Bangel (this was more normalized). The younger fans tend to go for Spuffy (enemies to lovers trope). But in my opinion, Angel is a hard watch.

 

[thetopher]

He sucks at social situations yes, but he's still weirdly possessive (red flag). Him and Buffy's early relationship consist of Buffy trying to make him jealous and Angel getting mad and disappearing for a couple of days. Then they make up and the cycle repeats blah blah blah.

How is he 'weirdly possessive'? What, he gets jealous? Not that weird, but he doesn't demand that Buffy stop seeing Owen is something because who the hell is he?

btw Buffy gets jealous too- over Drusilla- and gets pissy with Angel. They both are 'weirdly possessive' I guess lol.

The rest of your description is so inaccurate that I actually can't comment on it, like Buffy actively tries to make Angel jealous 1 time and its marked as uncharacteristic for her behavior their relationship, there is no cycle to repeat lol.

He was given the opportunity to help Buffy yes, but that didn't mean he had to go and date her.

And that's your framing, but the show is all 'Buffy dates Angel', in fact she dates other people besides Angel, she decides, she sets the pace, she has agency.

Should Angel had said 'nah, we shouldn't date'? Well he tried... but he has sucky willpower, that's a valid criticism of the coupling I guess.

And the show added that weird detail of 'I've been watching you since you were 15', obviously I'm gonna feel uncomfortable when I watch that shit. It didn't even further the plot smh

Of course it furthers the plot, it explains that Angel was sent by 'the forces of good' specifically to aid Buffy, he is there for a reason beyond his own choice. This becomes incredibly relevant the next season and over on his own show, it is the first inkling we get that outside forces consider Angel himself to be important!!

That particular revelation is not about Buffy or their relationship, but about Angel and his 'Becoming'....well, okay it is about why Angel felt connection to Buffy beyond and physical attraction. He had something 'thrust upon him' that he did not want (vampirism and then the curse) and then he is there to witness Buffy having the same thing- a burden- being thrust upon her as her world starts to crumble.

Basically the scene is very good from a character/storytelling perspective, but sure, ew gross, whatever.

Physically Buffy was strong yes, but she's never really been fine mentally. Being physically strong does not mean you are exempt from predatory behavior.

I never brought up physical strength, what I mean by 'power dynamics' is social hierarchy or emotional strength/fortitude; i.e does Angel use his position improperly or uses psychological pressure to force an emotionally immature Buffy to do stuff she doesn't want to do.
No and no.

But Spuffy? Oh, that's all kinds of toxic, red flags and unfair power dynamics, consent issues all over the place. People just say 'oh she's a proper adult now so those things don't matter/matter less', like adults can't be in abusive relationships with older guys...

Not to that mention that Buffy's daddy issues never help out during her relationships.

There's not much evidence that she had 'daddy issues' in regards to Angel, she has daddy issues in regards to Giles and projecting that role onto him, she has serious abandonment issues when it comes to her love life. She has other issues that wrap around her whole slayer/Buffy persona but that's another thing entirely.

Buffy is usually a sound voice of a reason in the show...except when it comes to Angel.

Except when it comes to her romantic interests. Buffy makes bad choices regarding ALL the guys she's involved in, not just Angel. I wouldn't call you out on this but you're the one who brought up Spike so.... learn to spot the pattern?

Also when they have their first time after Buffy turns 18, like dude were you waiting for her to be legal?

So is it about the age difference or Buffy's legal age of consent?
Please know that many people live in civilized counties/other places in the US where 17 (or even 16) is entirely legal and so Buffy's age is an irrelevant factor. Besides using legal standards on a show that often depicts our heroes flouting the law seems a bit weird. Buffy assaults people and B&E's all the time, Willow hacks into places she doesn't belong, Giles enables them all, its a little strange to clutch pearls when it comes to legalities between 17 and 18?

Y'know, Buffy has an alcoholic drink at 16! That's illegal, and 5 years before she is even ready to make such a choice! God, that's so irresponsible of her! She broke the law and so did Angel, for shame.

But I get it, the older fans tend to be more Bangel (this was more normalized). The younger fans tend to go for Spuffy (enemies to lovers trope).

Well I am neither. I don't care for Bangel either way but I HATE Spuffy, plus the enemies to lovers trope is everywhere nowadays. So tiresome, boring and toxic.

 

[Kendar]

Age of consent is 16 for when both parties are minors. Angel was 26 when he turned and Buffy is 16!

California's age of consent is 18, and there is no legal Romeo/Juliet exception or exception if both are under age. Buffy's encounter with Angel would be illegal even if he was actually 17.

Having said that, prosecutorial discretion is a thing. UNOFFICIALLY it's a rare DA who will pursue the charges if the two were similar age and it was otherwise consensual.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

We have this discussion every couple of months. It can't be resolved, it's based on subjective criteria.