"Why the Spike hate?" Continued

[Zeppo]

Do I want to see you get mad? Is it working? LOL

Oh, I agree both stories are interesting, which is why I specifically said "personally." It just seemed to me that there was fishing for justification that Spike is a better creature than Angel because he fought for his soul when really I think it's irrelevent.

And for Spike, I think that was enough for him not to give a piss about atonement because Buffy forgave him.

Which is all fine and dandy but shows that what he did was for Buffy, no? She forgave him, she told him it was ok, she said move on and then he was fine. To me, that means it was for Buffy, which means him searching for a soul himself shouldn't be placed on such a high pedestal. Daniel's post was comparing Angel with Spike (on something I thought wasn't fair) and if we were going to go there a little I wanted to jump in with what they do with the soul is what mattered.

 

[StarSlayer]

Do I want to see you get mad? Is it working? LOL

See my avatar, lol 😉 😀

Oh, I agree both stories are interesting, which is why I specifically said "personally." It just seemed to me that there was fishing for justification that Spike is a better creature than Angel because he fought for his soul when really I think it's irrelevent.

I think one could make an argument though in Spike's favor. 😉

Which is all fine and dandy but shows that what he did was for Buffy, no? She forgave him, she told him it was ok, she said move on and then he was fine. To me, that means it was for Buffy, which means him searching for a soul himself shouldn't be placed on such a high pedestal. Daniel's post was comparing Angel with Spike (on something I thought wasn't fair) and if we were going to go there a little I wanted to jump in with what they do with the soul is what mattered.

I was referring to when you mentioned Spike didn't give a piss about atonement because I think Spike specifically said that line in "Just Rewards" in AtS s5. And that was after Buffy forgave him. Nevertheless, even before that, in "Seeing Red," when Spike goes back to his crypt, he goes through this whole mental dilemma about how he can't be a monster because of the chip, but he can't be a man (since he has no soul.) Thus, he makes a voluntary decision to get his soul in order to be a better man, especially after what he tried to do and how shocked he was for letting it get that far, and because Buffy said she couldn't love a soulless thing. Agree to disagree? 🙂

---------- Post added at 02:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 AM ----------

Zeppo agrees: NEVA! But you're so gosh darn adorable I'll agree with you. Hahaha!

LMAO 😀 *curtsies*

 

[The Unspoken]

"dunno how it's better, unless you mean morally. However, Spike's reasons were for a girl who's last words to him were, "ask me again why I could never love you." Maybe this is romantic or whatever, I dunno. I don't get it.

Spike got the soul to become 'the man that Buffy deserved'. This would entail fighting against evil. He couldn't (fully) dedicate himself to the fight against evil before he got his soul because he was EVIL.

Main point, though, is that I think what matters more is what is done with said-soul. Angel uses his for redemption by helping victims and never lost sight of that, Spike used it to woo back a girl, saying he didn't "give a piss about atonement."

Spike closed the Hellmouth and joined Angel's team in season 5. While his attitude may not be to your liking, he's very much dedicated to the fight against evil. I personally think Spike's attitude is a coping mechanism. We've seen how immobilizing the guilt is - Angel spent an entire century wallowing in it.

 

[Zeppo]

Yes, Spike is "EVIL." Yet there's still excuses and sympathetic reasoning behind every semi-romantic or seemlingly heroic thing he might've done during that time however, like you said, he couldn't fully commit (to the good)! I'm confused.

It's interesting that Spike decided it was a souled him that Buffy deserved. (If Spike was so un-selfish, he would've let Buffy find her way back to Angel if all he felt she needed was a soulled champion ... Actually, had that happened, Spike would've been one of my favorites. I would totally would admire an action like that in a character.)

With your examples: Closing the Hellmouth and joining Angel's team wasn't something he was asked to do and said "yes" to - he left W&H a few times but couldn't escape the first few times. Don't give him THAT much credit. He started to settle in and decided to stay, awesome. His sacrifice with the amulet was as much for Buffy as it was the world because he could now be "the man she deserved;" because now he could be a hero. He even mentions the heroisism of the death in Just Rewards.

That quote has nothing to do with the attitude, it has everything to do with the point I was making and that point was what matters is what is done with the soul.

Again my point with my post, and my ONLY point - the rest of this text is just support - was it doesn't really matter how they got the soul because that's not what counts in the history books. What matters is how they USE it. Angel was moppey for 100 years as he redeemed himself, one could argue then that a soulled Angel has MORE humanity in him then Spike because he clearly takes it harder. Buffy pats Spikey on the head and tells him she forgives him and it's all gravey for the dude which tells me (not to mention he says it himself that) he doesn't care about redemption. Personally, this is why I don't admire Spike. Again, not to compare the two but I had to mention it. Too much credit being given to this character.

 

[The Unspoken]

Yes, Spike is "EVIL." Yet there's still excuses and sympathetic reasoning behind every semi-romantic or seemlingly heroic thing he might've done during that time however, like you said, he couldn't fully commit (to the good)! I'm confused.

Me too. About this quote, that is.

It's interesting that Spike decided it was a souled him that Buffy deserved. (If Spike was so un-selfish, he would've let Buffy find her way back to Angel if all he felt she needed was a soulled champion ... Actually, had that happened, Spike would've been one of my favorites. I would totally would admire an action like that in a character.)

Of course it was (partly) selfish, but then again, the same can be said for everyone who pursues a relationship with someone they're in love with - including a certain broody vampire (hint: his name begins with an 'A' and he has trouble getting laid). And a big part of why Spike got his soul back was out of remorse over the attempted rape.

With your examples: Closing the Hellmouth and joining Angel's team wasn't something he was asked to do and said "yes" to - he left W&H a few times but couldn't escape the first few times. Don't give him THAT much credit. He started to settle in and decided to stay, awesome.

Everyone copes with their regained soul - and the corresponding guilt - in their own way (of course, there have only been two incidences to date). Spike stumbles and even falls sometimes, but he makes progress. I thought that near the end of season 5 it was established fairly well that he began seeing the fight against evil as a goal in itself.

His sacrifice with the amulet was as much for Buffy as it was the world because he could now be "the man she deserved;" because now he could be a hero. He even mentions the heroisism of the death in Just Rewards.

Saying Spike sacrificed himself in 'Chosen' for selfish reasons is a paradox - you can't benefit from something once you're dead.

That quote has nothing to do with the attitude, it has everything to do with the point I was making and that point was what matters is what is done with the soul.

Uhm...Spike prevents apocalypses and saves lives with his soul.

Again my point with my post, and my ONLY point - the rest of this text is just support - was it doesn't really matter how they got the soul because that's not what counts in the history books. What matters is how they USE it.

But if they don't (voluntarily) get the soul in the first place, they can't use it.

Angel was moppey for 100 years as he redeemed himself, one could argue then that a soulled Angel has MORE humanity in him then Spike because he clearly takes it harder.

It's not a contest. They each take a different journey. Both Spike and Angel's way of dealing with their soul are well within the spectrum of humanity.

Buffy pats Spikey on the head and tells him she forgives him and it's all gravey for the dude which tells me (not to mention he says it himself that) he doesn't care about redemption. Personally, this is why I don't admire Spike. Again, not to compare the two but I had to mention it. Too much credit being given to this character.

I don't think it's so much about credit being given as people being able to relate to the character.


Also, regarding the 'recycling' issue of Spike's storyline - I don't agree with it. I think they're two very different stories and neither is inherently better than the one. Which one resonates with you (more) is subjective and not necessarily the result of one being better than the other.

 

[StarSlayer]

Again my point with my post, and my ONLY point - the rest of this text is just support - was it doesn't really matter how they got the soul because that's not what counts in the history books. What matters is how they USE it. Angel was moppey for 100 years as he redeemed himself, one could argue then that a soulled Angel has MORE humanity in him then Spike because he clearly takes it harder. Buffy pats Spikey on the head and tells him she forgives him and it's all gravey for the dude which tells me (not to mention he says it himself that) he doesn't care about redemption. Personally, this is why I don't admire Spike. Again, not to compare the two but I had to mention it. Too much credit being given to this character.

Angel was mopey until he saw and fell in love with Buffy. That was when he decided he wanted to really change. I know we hate the Angel/Spike comparisons, but it could be said that like Spike, Angel didn't decide to stop moping and eating rats until Buffy came along. For the first part of his soulled life, Angel didn't use his soul well because of all the guilt he felt. It wasn't until Buffy came along that he wanted to use his soul for the greater good. And I don't think it shows Angel had more humanity than Spike simply because he took it harder. I think it just shows that Angel simply didn't have Buffy or anyone around (since he was the first vampire to get his soul) to help him through the process.

Also, I think Buffy forgiving Spike doesn't show that Spike no longer cared about redemption (mainly in s7). The first step was Buffy believing in him and believing he could change. That motivated him throughout the time the First tortured him and tried to convince him that he would never good. If he didn't care about redemption, he would have given in to the First. Also, in "Chosen," when he says, "I mean it. I gotta do this," he knew he had to stay and sacrifice himself to save the world. He wanted that redemption, especially after he just said he could feel his soul and how Buffy believed he was/is a champion. I don't see that as selfish at all. Personally, I see Spike's actions similar to a soldier in battle, who wants to sacrifice himself in order to protect the greater good. It's extremely heroic. 🙂

Spike's journey that we see in AtS s5 is him figuring out his next step. And he ultimately decides that he wants to help Angel in the fight against evil. His motivating reason may not be for atonement anymore, but I think it still says a lot that he wants to help Angel, especially since we know how they both get along so well. 😉

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------

Zalos agrees: Really good point about how Angel didn't move his ass until he met Buffy. So maybe he also got in the fight for the *girl* at first, eh.

Exactly! 🙂 If one argues that Spike action's were selfish and not out of redemption (pre-soul and post-soul), then a similar thing could be said about Angel. He only wanted to be good because he fell in love with Buffy. He didn't want to change on his own. He was inspired by someone else to change. So does that make Angel selfish and not really care about redemption because he initially wanted to change because of Buffy? Hell no! 🙂 So, how come Spike takes the beating that it was selfish? Because he had no soul? As some of us have said, that was his battle between the demon and the man, specifically in s5 and s6. But, his human side eventually won.

I didn't really want to go into the comparisons, but it's how I can get my points across sometimes. 🙂

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

The reason I think Spike doesn't care about atonement is that he makes a divide between his unsouled self and his souled self. After Buffy forgives him, he sees himself as a new, better man. We see in "Never Leave Me" how his deeds as an evil being haunt him. But because he's Spike, he's not much to dwell on the past for too long and eventually dedicates himself to making the world a better place in the present day instead of moping about the past.

Angel's century of despair is also perfectly plausible, but I must say that I simply like Spike's attitude more.

 

[Taaroko]

Exactly! 🙂 If one argues that Spike action's were selfish and not out of redemption (pre-soul and post-soul), then a similar thing could be said about Angel. He only wanted to be good because he fell in love with Buffy. He didn't want to change on his own. He was inspired by someone else to change. So does that make Angel selfish and not really care about redemption because he initially wanted to change because of Buffy? Hell no! 🙂 So, how come Spike takes the beating that it was selfish? Because he had no soul?

The difference is that Angel changed before she had even met him, and never had any expectation that they would actually be together. Even when it became clear that his feelings were reciprocated, he still didn't seize the opportunity to have a relationship with her (which, given his track record both as Liam and as Angelus, would have been extremely easy for him to do if he'd tried); she always set the pace, and he always cautioned against letting it go farther (or continue at all).

I wouldn't normally compare Angel to soulless Spike, because it isn't a fair comparison and I don't judge either character, when ensouled, for what he did without a soul, but you're the one who brought it up. Whatever soulless Spike does is done in order to *make* her change her opinion of him so that they can be together, and he always makes sure she knows what he's doing "for her". Then, once he has a soul, he goes back to Sunnydale and eventually tells Buffy that he got it to be the man she deserves.

Angel, on the other hand, never feels he deserves anything but her contempt and hatred, but he still changes because she gives him hope, something he has never had before under his curse, and he wants to protect her from the evil he knows is in the world (because he used to be part of that evil, knows how it thinks, and knows it'll be targeting her). It isn't that he wants to be good because he's fallen in love with her, it's that he never realized before that he could even *be* good. He always believed he was nothing but a monster, a belief which was reinforced by pretty much everything: the Romani man standing over him when he was first cursed, his memories (and his are photographic, which Spike's might not be), his vampiric nature, and everyone he tried to reach out to in those hundred years. That he managed not to be evil when evil was all he thought he could be is quite impressive enough for me.

Then Whistler tells him that he can be more; he can become someone to be counted. He sees Buffy, is willing to try, and succeeds. She falls in love with the man he became because of her, without any knowledge that it was because of her (until he tells her in "Helpless" to prove that he doesn't just love her because she's the Slayer). After S2, he doesn't push to renew their relationship (he even asks how things are with her and Scott, not trying to sabotage it, just hoping to hear that she's happy) because now he feels even less worthy of her than he did before. The relationship kind of just happens anyway because despite what he expects, she still doesn't hold Angelus against him and is able to love him for him.

So, yeah, compared to that, Spike's efforts pre-soul don't really impress me at all, but I never expected them to, since he's still soulless. The bad things he does throughout his attempts to prove to Buffy that he's changed for her (which he hasn't really) never surprise me even when they disgust/disturb/anger me, because he's soulless, so it's only to be expected. Then, once he has a soul, he's still too keen on making sure she knows he's changing for her (even though the change is genuine now) for me to be terribly impressed. Not until "Chosen", when he says "No you don't, but thanks for saying it." But then his behavior in the beginning of Angel S5 spoils that.

 

[StarSlayer]

The difference is that Angel changed before she had even met him, and never had any expectation that they would actually be together.

My point was not that Angel changed before he actually met Buffy. My point was that some people say since Spike wanted to change after being inspired by Buffy (even post-soul), it still made him selfish (for whatever reasons they think). But, if that's the case, then a similar thing could be said about Angel because he too was inspired by Buffy. IMO, it's again that double standard which I hate.

Whatever soulless Spike does is done in order to *make* her change her opinion of him so that they can be together, and he always makes sure she knows what he's doing "for her". Then, once he has a soul, he goes back to Sunnydale and eventually tells Buffy that he got it to be the man she deserves.

Pre-Intervention, I agree. There were times when Spike wanted Buffy to know of his good deeds and that he could change. That was how he thought Buffy could love him. However, post-Intervention, it was completely different. And although he still loved her, he knew Buffy would never love him back. "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man and that's..." But, he still chose to be good and help her in her fight against Glory, and even the Scoobies after she died. And I don't see how it's so selfish if someone says that they want to be good and do good for another person. I don't see how it's so selfish that Spike says he wanted to become the man Buffy deserves. I cannot wrap my head around that idea.

He always believed he was nothing but a monster, a belief which was reinforced by pretty much everything: the Romani man standing over him when he was first cursed, his memories (and his are photographic, which Spike's might not be), his vampiric nature, and everyone he tried to reach out to in those hundred years. That he managed not to be evil when evil was all he thought he could be is quite impressive enough for me.

I hate the comparisons too, but the exact same thing can be said about Spike. He always believed he was nothing but a monster, an evil soulless thing, and that belief was always reinforced by Buffy and even Xander at times. He wanted to be good and he didn't realize he had the ability to be good until Buffy recognized it in "Intervention." Even when Spike got his soul, he was still seen as a monster by Xander, Giles, Wood, and even Dawn. But, Buffy knew he changed for the better. She saw that he changed, she saw his penance. "He can be a good man, Giles. I feel it." That Spike managed to risk everything, face the monster inside him, fight back, and become a better man is quite impressive for me. 🙂 That doesn't diminish Angel's story. It's just different and I love them both.

 

[Taaroko]

My point was not that Angel changed before he actually met Buffy. My point was that some people say since Spike wanted to change after being inspired by Buffy (even post-soul), it still made him selfish (for whatever reasons they think). But, if that's the case, then a similar thing could be said about Angel because he too was inspired by Buffy. IMO, it's again that double standard which I hate.

Being inspired to change for the better by the feelings you have for someone isn't a bad thing. It's never a bad thing to be inspired to change for the better, no matter what the inspiration is. I just don't think that's exactly how it worked for Spike (in part because I don't believe it was within his ability to actually change without a soul in the first place, nor do I believe it was within his ability to feel more than infatuation, obsession, and lust for her). He tried to change his behavior because he wanted her to love him and, at least while soulless, expected her to because of what he was doing. (And there were lots of other perks he could get for doing good things.) Angel may have wanted her to love him back (I mean, nobody *wants* their love to be unrequited, after all; that's ridiculous), but he never expected her to--he never expected anything at all except that he might be able to help her, and he never made displays of how much he had changed because of her. He *really* changed, turned his life completely around, *really* loved her, and expected nothing in return for any of it. The only reward he entertained any hope of getting was personal catharsis, and that was enough. Angel's approach was very humble and earnest, whereas Spike's (pre-soul, at least) was arrogant and presumptuous.

Even after Spike has his soul, fair comparison between his approach and Angel's is difficult, because Angel had no personal baggage with Buffy, but Spike has five years' worth of it. Because of that baggage, it would of course be much more important to Spike to let Buffy know how much he has changed, but it's still a little baffling to me that he'd have the nerve to inflict his company on her at all in "Beneath You" when he knows she's not going to be remotely happy to see him. After that, he won't take care of himself (even though he's perfectly capable of doing so), so she ends up feeling like that's her job, and then in "Sleeper" he accuses Buffy of being jealous when she asks about the woman he was talking to the night before. All in all, not especially gracious or considerate of him. In S3, Buffy was always the one who went to Angel until the Angelus baggage was well behind them, and he was legitimately physically weakened to the point of needing help taking care of himself. He accepted her help gratefully, but wanted to get well enough that she didn't have to do that for him anymore.

 

[StarSlayer]

Being inspired to change for the better by the feelings you have for someone isn't a bad thing. It's never a bad thing to be inspired to change for the better, no matter what the inspiration is. I just don't think that's exactly how it worked for Spike (in part because I don't believe it was within his ability to actually change without a soul in the first place, nor do I believe it was within his ability to feel more than infatuation, obsession, and lust for her).

And again. This goes back to what a lot of us were saying before. 🙂 We do think Spike had the ability to love without a soul and have the ability to change. But, the harsh truth was he couldn't completely be good because he needed his soul.

He tried to change his behavior because he wanted her to love him and, at least while soulless, expected her to because of what he was doing.

As I said, pre-Intervention yes. Post-Intervention though it was completely different.

Angel's approach was very humble and earnest, whereas Spike's (pre-soul, at least) was arrogant and presumptuous.

In s5, at the very end of "Fool for Love," when Spike asked Buffy if there was anything wrong and if there was anything he could do, he simply sat down next to her and tried to comfort her. Did he ask for anything in return there? In s6, at the end of "After Life," Spike simply listened to Buffy when she explained how she was in heaven and how life was hard now. Did he ask for anything in return here too? In "Flooded," Spike again simply sat down next to Buffy and listened to her, not asking for anything in return. I could go on and on with examples, but my point is that Spike's approach even when soulless, specifically post-Intervention, was not as selfish, arrogant, and presumptuous as some think (at least in my eyes).

Because of that baggage, it would of course be much more important to Spike to let Buffy know how much he has changed, but it's still a little baffling to me that he'd have the nerve to inflict his company on her at all in "Beneath You" when he knows she's not going to be remotely happy to see him. After that, he won't take care of himself (even though he's perfectly capable of doing so), so she ends up feeling like that's her job, and then in "Sleeper" he accuses Buffy of being jealous when she asks about the woman he was talking to the night before. All in all, not especially gracious or considerate of him.

Buffy was the one who found Spike in the basement, and her reaction wasn't, "Get the hell out of my face." She was calm, surprised, and even concerned after she saw the scars on Spike's chest. Spike then thought he could change and help Buffy, so he left the basement. However, as I mentioned before, it didn't work because he still felt guilty over everything, so he went back to the basement. Spike also didn't like being a burden for Buffy. We first saw evidence of that in "Him," when Buffy wants Spike to stay with Xander. Spike even wanted to leave town, but Buffy wanted him to stay. And what's he going to do? Say no, especially when Buffy is facing her biggest battle yet? And when Buffy seems to offer a slight glimmer of hope between them? "I'm not ready for you to not be here." Hehe...please. 😛 And in "Sleeper," Buffy was the one who questioned Spike about the woman. Spike was trying to figure out where this all was coming from. So, it's only natural for him to believe Buffy is jealous. Angel was jealous when Buffy was seeing Riley. Does that make him inconsiderate as well? Not in the slightest.

 

[Zeppo]

Of course it was (partly) selfish, but then again, the same can be said for everyone who pursues a relationship with someone they're in love with - including a certain broody vampire (hint: his name begins with an 'A' and he has trouble getting laid). And a big part of why Spike got his soul back was out of remorse over the attempted rape.

My issue is that with great power comes great responsibility. What you're saying is right and it is the point I was trying to make initially; trying not to weight one more than the other. However, it was done above and I was trying to counter it and show that it wasn't fair by giving my reasons for it. I would argue that Angel is a little less selfish than Spike ever was when it came to Buffy but I'm not going to go into that.

Everyone copes with their regained soul - and the corresponding guilt - in their own way (of course, there have only been two incidences to date). Spike stumbles and even falls sometimes, but he makes progress. I thought that near the end of season 5 it was established fairly well that he began seeing the fight against evil as a goal in itself.

Again, that's fair. Just don't weight his soul-getting over someone like Angel's as "better."

Saying Spike sacrificed himself in 'Chosen' for selfish reasons is a paradox - you can't benefit from something once you're dead.

Yes, you can. You leave a legacy, a name. He mentions something about it in Just Rewards, how he went out a hero. He gains solice in his own death. Nothing wrong with that.

Uhm...Spike prevents apocalypses and saves lives with his soul.

Yeah but it's not done out of atonement. I guess it's my opinion only if I don't think that's a good enough reason to give him props for what he's doing with a soul. I can't compare 100 years with a soul to 2 years with one which is why I feel lots of credit gets given to Spike. I recognize this may not be the feelings of you or anyone else, only saying that's where I am coming from.

But if they don't (voluntarily) get the soul in the first place, they can't use it.

Your middle-class neighbor wins a million dollars and gives half to charity. Your equally classed neighbor across the street earns the same amount in extra profit through a small personal business, giving none of it away. It doesn't matter where the money came from, does it? No one also said what had to be done with it, either. Yet who is more nobel here? (This is an example of how I see it, you may disagree with the vision or the metaphor but I'll debate my argument just not the metaphor. I hate debating metaphors haha.)

It's not a contest. They each take a different journey. Both Spike and Angel's way of dealing with their soul are well within the spectrum of humanity.

I agree it's not. So why was things being weighed as "better?" You didn't make the initial post that I responded to but you came in and replied so I guess this isn't directed at you more so to understand as a whole what I'm saying.

I don't think it's so much about credit being given as people being able to relate to the character.

In some cases I would agree, in others I wouldn't.

Also, regarding the 'recycling' issue of Spike's storyline - I don't agree with it. I think they're two very different stories and neither is inherently better than the one. Which one resonates with you (more) is subjective and not necessarily the result of one being better than the other.

My point again, said in your words. Just because someone thought the way Spike got his sould was better doesn't mean I did and I thought it was irrelevent anyway.

Angel was mopey until he saw and fell in love with Buffy. That was when he decided he wanted to really change. I know we hate the Angel/Spike comparisons, but it could be said that like Spike, Angel didn't decide to stop moping and eating rats until Buffy came along.

I'm positive he was still redeeming himself during that time - saving puppies, for instance - so what if he moped around? He felt he deserved to mope around, Spike felt he deserved to still wear Nikki Wood's coat. Also, Angel never had a soulled vampire as a role model to figure out what to do with a soul, Spike did.

Also, I think Buffy forgiving Spike doesn't show that Spike no longer cared about redemption (mainly in s7). The first step was Buffy believing in him and believing he could change. That motivated him throughout the time the First tortured him and tried to convince him that he would never good. If he didn't care about redemption, he would have given in to the First.

I can't agree with this for personal reasons which I would like to expain and recognize that they not represent anyone else's here: I have issue with Spike feeling better by Buffy giving him forgiveness - the only forgiveness she had to give was for what happened in the bathroom, which appears to be all he was worried about because he accepted it and yes, got over his own moping. If he was upset about all the other crimes he committed he never would've worn that coat again. He couldn't have given into the First because he had a conscience now, not to mention all the torture he suffered at its hands. Who wants to be friends with something who does that to you?

Buffy forgiving Angel for what he did, say, in season 2, would not be enough for him to just feel better which I - maybe no one else agrees - shows it's not about a girl. I'll explain a little bit about this at the end cause I just realized something ...

Also, in "Chosen," when he says, "I mean it. I gotta do this," he knew he had to stay and sacrifice himself to save the world. He wanted that redemption, especially after he just said he could feel his soul and how Buffy believed he was/is a champion. I don't see that as selfish at all. Personally, I see Spike's actions similar to a soldier in battle, who wants to sacrifice himself in order to protect the greater good. It's extremely heroic.

Absolutely agree. It was for the world. And for Buffy. And for himself. Selfish is the wrong word but I dunno how else to say it; maybe that his intentions always include Buffy where as his soulled counterpart is only making up for the wrongs he committed, not to show a lover what a good boy he can be.

My point was not that Angel changed before he actually met Buffy. My point was that some people say since Spike wanted to change after being inspired by Buffy (even post-soul), it still made him selfish (for whatever reasons they think). But, if that's the case, then a similar thing could be said about Angel because he too was inspired by Buffy. IMO, it's again that double standard which I hate.

I get your point, cause you're very articulate as always, my rational StarSlayer, you. 😛 Going again with the Spiderman analogy ("With great power comes great responsibility"): He sought out his "great power" (his soul) and I think people like myself feel like he fell short on the responsibility aspect of the great power. But I guess it's hard to compare 2 years of a soul to 100, which is what we are all doing on both sides and it's making everyone's arguments suck and go in circles.

Back to what I realized, I want to be honest:

I cannot think of Spike without comparing him to Angel. Angel was first, Angel had the soul first, Angel had Buffy first, Angel accepted the mission first. I bought into him and his views and vision, I was seeing things the way he saw them. He is the Buffy to Spike's Rona: he has more experience in the area, yet the latter believes they know better. Again, I feel he gets more credit than he deserves, not that he doesn't deserve any. I am biased, I like Angel. Maybe I see things through his eyes more than I think but I try really hard to see things as they actually are and to me, what I've said in the threads is how I see them. How Angel sees them. Bangel was the romance, Spike was the enemy, and sometimes Willow was with a girl. That was how I saw the show and Spike really shook it up, taking on the male lead role while being EVIL. Call me one of the typical white-boy-Angel-type good guys but I don't like the bad guys. Maybe I shouldn't reply here anymore because of this as it's not a comparison between the two, although everyone has their own bias they base their replies on.

And like I said in the first thread I accept Spike and admire some of the things he did but as Angel (the good guy) had these things first and I thought he handled them way better, I can't like Spike (the bad guy). (I think that sentence is as articulate as I have and can make it.)

 

[prophecygrrl]

The_Royal_anna is pretty much the queen of ship meta. I was reading one of her pieces the other day and one part really struck me (and I think, also, relevant to this discussion 😛) In response to the question of whether Spike getting his soul was selfish, there's one part of that debate that I don't think we've really covered: Buffy's reaction and *her* feelings on the subject. Here, I think the_royal_anna says it so much better than I can:

Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul. Of course it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still hang over her. Until now. Because suddenly this is how much she is worth "“ she is worth a soul. She is worth a vampire going out and getting a soul for her, all for her, and yes, it matters to her. She is the Slayer and she can do anything and everything but she cannot earn back that soul, that damn soul that was lost at her hands and regained only for her to destroy it again, sending it to straight to Hell. But this time, this vampire takes it out of her hands. She cannot earn back that soul but he can. And what Buffy is only just starting to understand is what he can do for her is as much hers as what she can do for herself, that this gift of a soul is part of who he is, and who she is, and who they are.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel accepted the mission first.

Angel had to accept the mission because when he was a soulless vampire he was truly a monster. Spike was never as bad as Angel was, the Watcher Diaries attest to that fact. Spike built his reputation on lies and boasting, even the truth came out about his name Spike, which was not about how he killed his victims but about tolerating his poetry. If it had not been for others influences- Angel, his mother, Dru etc Spike would not have ever been seen in a bad light. They made him bad. Don't blame Spike, blame the people around him. So yeah, Angel accepted the mission first because he needed it, whereas Spike did not. Spike was not a bad vampire, he just fell in with the wrong crowd.

 

[StarSlayer]

I'm positive he was still redeeming himself during that time - saving puppies, for instance - so what if he moped around? He felt he deserved to mope around, Spike felt he deserved to still wear Nikki Wood's coat. Also, Angel never had a soulled vampire as a role model to figure out what to do with a soul, Spike did.

I've said my thoughts on the jacket J 😉. Besides, the jacket was destroyed in TGIQ. He got a new one. It was the same look, but the value of it was gone, as it should be because he was no longer evil. Angel got a pretty cool leather coat out of the deal too! 😀

Absolutely agree. It was for the world. And for Buffy. And for himself. Selfish is the wrong word but I dunno how else to say it; maybe that his intentions always include Buffy where as his soulled counterpart is only making up for the wrongs he committed, not to show a lover what a good boy he can be.

Of course it was for all those things and I don't see how that's in any way selfish. It goes back to what a lot of people were saying before about the whole "selfish" aspect.

I get your point, cause you're very articulate as always, my rational StarSlayer, you. 😛 Going again with the Spiderman analogy ("With great power comes great responsibility"): He sought out his "great power" (his soul) and I think people like myself feel like he fell short on the responsibility aspect of the great power. But I guess it's hard to compare 2 years of a soul to 100, which is what we are all doing on both sides and it's making everyone's arguments suck and go in circles.

Why can't I help but think of "Rent" right now? "How do you measure, measure a year?" LOL 😀 Maybe it's quality not quantity. I always felt Spike took responsibility for what he did when he got his soul back. He was just simply fortunate to have Buffy help him get through it quicker. Maybe Angel was jealous of that? It kind of seemed that way in "Destiny" IMO. Since Spike spent 3 weeks moping in a basement, while he spent 100 years moping.

I cannot think of Spike without comparing him to Angel. Angel was first, Angel had the soul first, Angel had Buffy first, Angel accepted the mission first. I bought into him and his views and vision, I was seeing things the way he saw them. He is the Buffy to Spike's Rona: he has more experience in the area, yet the latter believes they know better. Again, I feel he gets more credit than he deserves, not that he doesn't deserve any. I am biased, I like Angel. Maybe I see things through his eyes more than I think but I try really hard to see things as they actually are and to me, what I've said in the threads is how I see them. How Angel sees them. Bangel was the romance, Spike was the enemy, and sometimes Willow was with a girl. That was how I saw the show and Spike really shook it up, taking on the male lead role while being EVIL. Call me one of the typical white-boy-Angel-type good guys but I don't like the bad guys. Maybe I shouldn't reply here anymore because of this as it's not a comparison between the two, although everyone has their own bias they base their replies on.

And I respect your opinions on it, although I disagree with some points. 🙂 But, you know I love Angel too (except Bangel). 😉

 

[Taaroko]

And again. This goes back to what a lot of us were saying before. 🙂 We do think Spike had the ability to love without a soul and have the ability to change. But, the harsh truth was he couldn't completely be good because he needed his soul.

As I said, pre-Intervention yes. Post-Intervention though it was completely different.

Oh, right, because expecting her to love him and trying to force her to when she defies that expectation is not at all what he does in season six. "Intervention" made him think he had a shot and led to even worse behavior. But what else can you expect from someone without a soul?

In s5, at the very end of "Fool for Love," when Spike asked Buffy if there was anything wrong and if there was anything he could do, he simply sat down next to her and tried to comfort her.

So what? He wants her alive more than he wants her dead, if only by a small and unstable margin at this point. More than that, he wants her not to hate him. Being comforting isn't exactly counterproductive there.

In s6, at the end of "After Life," Spike simply listened to Buffy when she explained how she was in heaven and how life was hard now. Did he ask for anything in return here too? In "Flooded," Spike again simply sat down next to Buffy and listened to her, not asking for anything in return.

He just learned that she resents most of her original support group, and now she's confiding in him because he's one of the only options left. He doesn't need to ask for anything, because now he's getting it. Later, he tries to keep her from her friends because the farther she is from them (emotionally), the more vulnerable she is to him. He might not be being arrogant and presumptuous as much here, but that's because being cunning works better.

And in "Sleeper," Buffy was the one who questioned Spike about the woman. Spike was trying to figure out where this all was coming from. So, it's only natural for him to believe Buffy is jealous. Angel was jealous when Buffy was seeing Riley. Does that make him inconsiderate as well? Not in the slightest.

Angel being jealous of Riley isn't comparable. Spike was accusing *Buffy* of being jealous (even though she wasn't, and jealousy was entirely beside the point). Angel never accused Buffy of being jealous, even when she actually was jealous of Faith. Both Angel and Spike get jealous, but Spike's the one who suggests locking her in a box to keep her away from other men.

Angel had to accept the mission because when he was a soulless vampire he was truly a monster. Spike was never as bad as Angel was, the Watcher Diaries attest to that fact. Spike built his reputation on lies and boasting, even the truth came out about his name Spike, which was not about how he killed his victims but about tolerating his poetry. If it had not been for others influences- Angel, his mother, Dru etc Spike would not have ever been seen in a bad light. They made him bad. Don't blame Spike, blame the people around him. So yeah, Angel accepted the mission first because he needed it, whereas Spike did not. Spike was not a bad vampire, he just fell in with the wrong crowd.

...

Uh. What? I don't even--I'm sorry, but this is a joke, right? You're joking? You don't seriously believe that Spike was only ever evil because of peer pressure?

 

[prophecygrrl]

Oh, right, because expecting her to love him and trying to force her to when she defies that expectation is not at all what he does in season six. "Intervention" made him think he had a shot and led to even worse behavior. But what else can you expect from someone without a soul?



So what? He wants her alive more than he wants her dead, if only by a small and unstable margin at this point. More than that, he wants her not to hate him. Being comforting isn't exactly counterproductive there.



He just learned that she resents most of her original support group, and now she's confiding in him because he's one of the only options left. He doesn't need to ask for anything, because now he's getting it. Later, he tries to keep her from her friends because the farther she is from them (emotionally), the more vulnerable she is to him. He might not be being arrogant and presumptuous as much here, but that's because being cunning works better.

Hee. I never thought I'd say this, but I think you're giving Spike far too much credit here. Spike is the least cunning bastard on the planet. He does things rashly, he reacts on instinct and emotion, and he wears his heart on his sleeve like a true sucker. (All of this is why a lot of us love him, actually 😉) I think his responses to seeing Buffy hurt are genuine. The guy really doesn't have it in him to be anything else in those situations. He is love's bitch, after all. Not the other way around.

 

[StarSlayer]

Oh, right, because expecting her to love him and trying to force her to when she defies that expectation is not at all what he does in season six. "Intervention" made him think he had a shot and led to even worse behavior. But what else can you expect from someone without a soul?

Helping Buffy and the Scoobies escape from Glory, trying to rescue Dawn, protecting Dawn after Buffy died, and helping the Scoobies after Buffy died are considered more worse than say his behavior of sneaking into Buffy's room to smell her clothes and his behavior in "Crush?" But, yeah. I see your point. "Intervention" led to even worse behavior. 🙄 Season 6 is whole other issue with so many other factors that I really don't want to get into because I feel like we're getting into a shipping war now, which I like to avoid. 😉

So what? He wants her alive more than he wants her dead, if only by a small and unstable margin at this point. More than that, he wants her not to hate him. Being comforting isn't exactly counterproductive there.

Spike was willing and ready to kill Buffy at the end of "Fool for Love." And he certainly could have done so. She was vulnerable from crying and no one was around to help. However, something happened that made Spike change his mind and comfort her instead, and I don't believe for a second it was because he wanted her to not hate him, particularly at this point. We'll agree to disagree. 🙂

He just learned that she resents most of her original support group, and now she's confiding in him because he's one of the only options left. He doesn't need to ask for anything, because now he's getting it. Later, he tries to keep her from her friends because the farther she is from them (emotionally), the more vulnerable she is to him. He might not be being arrogant and presumptuous as much here, but that's because being cunning works better.

Buffy didn't have to confide anything in Spike. He didn't even ask her what happened at the beginning when he first saw her, when she came to his crypt, or at the end of the episode. He simply said at the end of the episode that if she needed anything or if there was anything he could do, he would help. He didn't judge her or question her. As such, Buffy felt comfortable enough to say what was on her mind.

And Spike doesn't try to keep Buffy from her friends when Buffy is the one who retreats to the darkness to be with him. Like I said, I feel like we're getting into a shipping war here, so we'll again agree to disagree.

Angel being jealous of Riley isn't comparable. Spike was accusing *Buffy* of being jealous (even though she wasn't, and jealousy was entirely beside the point). Angel never accused Buffy of being jealous, even when she actually was jealous of Faith. Both Angel and Spike get jealous, but Spike's the one who suggests locking her in a box to keep her away from other men.

Of course it's not comparable to a Bangel, lol. 😛 And if you want to bring up TGIQ, who had spies on Buffy? Angel. Who considered Spike's scenario (although it seriously was written to be a joke)? Angel. The "locking Buffy away in a box" was a playful scene between Angel and Spike, where both of them wanted to keep Buffy away from other men.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Again my point with my post, and my ONLY point - the rest of this text is just support - was it doesn't really matter how they got the soul because that's not what counts in the history books. What matters is how they USE it. Angel was moppey for 100 years as he redeemed himself, one could argue then that a soulled Angel has MORE humanity in him then Spike because he clearly takes it harder. Buffy pats Spikey on the head and tells him she forgives him and it's all gravey for the dude which tells me (not to mention he says it himself that) he doesn't care about redemption. Personally, this is why I don't admire Spike. Again, not to compare the two but I had to mention it. Too much credit being given to this character.

Just wanting to say that personally, that's why I DO admire Spike and can't seem to care about the Bad Hair Dude.

He *really* changed, turned his life completely around, *really* loved her, and expected nothing in return for any of it. The only reward he entertained any hope of getting was personal catharsis, and that was enough. Angel's approach was very humble and earnest, whereas Spike's (pre-soul, at least) was arrogant and presumptuous.

Can't tell you how much I disagree here... I see neither that real change nor the love, and wanting catharsis to be dispensed by someone else is just pathetic. In that comparison, souled BHD and chipped-but-unsouled Spike pretty much come out on equal ground for me.

 

[Miss Kitty]

Angel's approach was very humble and earnest, whereas Spike's (pre-soul, at least) was arrogant and presumptuous.

This sentence inspired me 😛 . I'm not good at words in English, so I'll just do this, because the show speaks better than me. I want to show that Spike is all about *nuance*. That his actions weren't arrogant, presumptuous or even selfish all the time as you like to believe.


~*~*~

SPIKE: There's no demon in there. That's just a family legend, am I right? (Mr. Maclay looks angry) Just a bit of spin to keep the ladies in line. (smirks) Oh, you're a piece of work. I like you.
TARA: (softly, to Willow) I'm not a demon.
WILLOW: (smiling) You're not a demon.
TARA: He hurt my nose.
WILLOW: Aw.
SPIKE: (still rubbing his forehead) Yeah, you're welcome. (Stalks off)

- - "Family", 5x06


~*~*~

SPIKE : Is there something I can do?

- - "Fool for love", 5x07.


~*~*~

BUFFYBOT: I fell down and got confused. Willow fixed me. She's gay.
SPIKE: Will fixed you? I thought they'd melt you into scrap.
(...)
BUFFYBOT: Why did you let that Glory hurt you?
SPIKE: She wanted to know who the key was.
BUFFYBOT: Oh, well, I can tell her, and then you'll-(turns to leave)
SPIKE: No! (coughs as she turns back) You can't ever. Glory never finds out.
BUFFYBOT: Why?
SPIKE: (quietly) 'Cause Buffy ... the other, not so pleasant Buffy ... anything happened to Dawn, it'd destroy her. I couldn't live, her bein' in that much pain. Let Glory kill me first. Nearly bloody did.
(...)
BUFFY: What you did, for me, and Dawn ... that was real. I won't forget it.

- - "Intervention", 5x18

~*~*~

SPIKE: Mm-hmm.
BUFFY: What?
SPIKE: You - so you're saying that a ... powerful and mightily pissed-off witch ... was plannin' on going and spillin' herself a few pints of god blood until you, what, "explained"?
BUFFY: You think she'd ... no. I told Willow it would be like suicide.
SPIKE: I'd do it. (looks down at the ground) Right person. Person I loved. (looks at Buffy) I'd do it.

- - "Though love", 5x19.


~*~*~

SPIKE: I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man. And that's...

- - "The Gift", 5x22.

~*~*~

SPIKE: You don't come near the girl, Doc.
DOC: I don't smell a soul anywhere on you. Why do you even care?
SPIKE: I made a promise to a lady.

- - "The Gift", 5x22.

~*~*~

BUFFYBOT: Sorry I questioned you, Spike. (Spike looks surprised) You know I admire your brain almost as much as your washboard abs. (big smile)

Spike looks pained.

SPIKE: (quietly to Willow) I told you to make her stop doing that.
WILLOW: I did. I mean, I thought I got all that stuff out of the program.

We see that Willow has the bot hooked up to a laptop computer.

SPIKE: Well, you've got her opened up, fix it.
WILLOW: (typing) Sure. I mean, I have a lot of work here, but I'll see what I can do.

(...)
We see Spike opening the front door. He grabs his coat and leaves.

BUFFYBOT: Did I say something wrong?
WILLOW: (typing) No, it's not your fault.
BUFFYBOT: (pensive) I think Spike stopped liking me.
WILLOW: That's not true, he-he thinks you're swell.
BUFFYBOT: Then how come he never looks at me any more? Even when he's talking to me.

Beat. The bot seems anxious for Willow to explain.

WILLOW: (nervous) He just gets cranky, the way vampires do.

- - "Bargainning", 6x01

~*~*~

SPIKE: Buff? ... Slayer? Are you okay?

She isn't, but she composes herself and nods at him.

BUFFY: I'm here. I'm good.
SPIKE: (walks back to her) Buffy, if you're in ... if you're in pain ... or if you need anything... or if I can do anything for you...
BUFFY: (looks down at her lap) You can't.
SPIKE: Well, I haven't been to a hell dimension just of late, but I do know a thing or two about torment.

- - "Afterlife", 6x03

~*~*~

BUFFY: I don't know. I just, I feel like I'm spending all of my time trying to be okay, so they don't worry. It's exhausting. And then, I...

She trails off, makes a frustrated gesture and then clenches her hand into a fist.

SPIKE: And that makes 'em worry even more.

Buffy looks at him, doesn't reply. Spike walks the rest of the way up onto the porch, comes to stand next to her.

SPIKE: You want me to take them out? Give me a hell of a headache, but I could probably thin the herd a little.

After a moment Buffy smiles a little. Spike looks pleased.

SPIKE: Knew I could get a grin.

- - "Flooded", 6x04.

~*~*~

SPIKE: Let me rest in peace
Let me get some sleep
Let me take my love and bury it
In a hole six foot deep
I can lay my body down [advancing on Buffy]
But I can't find my sweet release
So let me rest in peace!

- - OMWF, 6x07


~*~*~

SPIKE : Life's not a song
Life isn't bliss
Life is just this
It's living
You'll get along
The pain that you feel
You only can heal
By living
You have to go one living
So one of us is living.

- - OMWF, 6x07.



At these moments, I see someone humble and earnest, in despite of the fact that he has no soul. I'm not saying that he always acted right, I'm saying that he was *nuanced*. And I really wish a recognition of this. Because it's too easy to have a selective memory...

You said that Angel's approach was humble and earnest, and please, look closer to Spike in season 7. If you want to compare Angel and Spike, take in count the vampires when they're both enssouled...

By the way...

BUFFY
Oh, my God. Are you 12?

ANGEL
I'm getting the brush off for Captain Peroxide. It doesn't necessarily bring out the champion in me.

Yeah, his approach is very humble 😛



****

Oh and credit of the transcript : http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season6.php