"Why the Spike hate?" Continued

[Kana]

I hadn't had a chance to look at this. My computer is still being fixed so I'm actually at work typing this.

I think there's an important distinction which has to be made. I don't think that it was what you meant here, but as we are talking about Spike's changes, I want to take this opportunity for pointing out this 🙂 : Spike didn't wanted changing who he is (I mean, he remains Spike, with his sarcasm, his same ways of being...) but he wanted to change his *nature*. He didn't change who he is but *what* he is. He's constantly struggling with his nature. He's in rebellion against the vampire in him.

I think it's a bit of both. I think the demon and personal identity are linked when it comes to vampires. Spike in the beginning of Season 7 wasn't just remorseful, he was less 'Spikey' and part of the reason is because Buffy rejected the who or what he was before. Spike becomes the old Spike again, when Buffy tells him to be. The jacket was part of who he was, not just the demon, so the identity issues (not unlike Angel and Angelus) come into a play.

But he didn't adapt his personality to Buffy or everyone else. He remains *Spike* : frank, sarcastic, rebel... What he tried to change, it's the evil inside him.

Well he did. He changed in before and after Get It Done. His whole relish the kill thing was part of his personality, a part he changed to please Buffy. He only changed back when Buffy told him to.

So yep, Spike changed for Buffy (it was one of his most importants motivations) but what he changed was his nature, not his personality. He's Spike and he remains Spike. I just wanted to point out this.

A bit of both. As I said, with vampires both soulled and soulless, identity and humanity are complicated issues. Spike was linking his moral identity to his nature. If Spike simply said "I want to be a soulled vampire!" it wouldn't hold much weight as "I want to be the sort of person Buffy deserves." As LadyLivinia said, simply having soul wouldn't hold much significance, it's about being what Buffy would consider a 'better man' which is linked to identity and personality.

And on another hand, I think that we all change for one reason. We all evolve because of our experiences, our meetings, the persons who are a part of our life at some point... It's always connected to the environment and people around us. If one of this person makes you want to be better, I find it really great. And even more when we know that it comes from a soulless vampire. When you don't have a soul, a total conscience of what makes something good or bad, the only thing in which you can believe is the person you love. At this point, it was normal that his love for Buffy was his motive for changing.

It's not an insult to Spike at all and I agree, there is nothing innoble about his intentions. My only 'thing' is that I prefer Angel's journey because I doubt I'd change my moral identity for love. This comes to down to personality and identification, not who's actually better.

He can't believe in anything as long as he doesn't have all the arms which makes a man a human. BUT, in the case of Spike, he has something in which he can believe : his love for a woman. That's why he follows this way.

I think Spike has always believed in love more than morality in general. Even as an evil vampire he never gave much thought about the nature of evil either. In this way, what I like about him is his consistency. As Marsters once said Spike could be moved towards villainy or heroism, all in the name of love. I think, after he got a soul that changed though. He was moved to heroism because of a belief in good.

Season 7 puts Spike in another perspective, because at this point, after recovering his soul, he has a complete ability for really chosing and believing in something by himself. It was maybe too soon in season 7 because the context was complicated and the recovery of his soul was recent, but at this point, he was able to make choices by himself. And it continues in ATS.

Agreed. If I'm really picky, although Spike was on a journey of discovery eversince the chip, I think his redemption (although i'm not really so much about redemption for soulled vampires as such) really started after he got his soul. He was able to get a gripe on his moral identity irrespective of Buffy.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I didn't say soulful beings can only be good, I said only soulful beings can be good.

Says who? You? Because I don't buy it. I don't see the soul as a measure of moral compass. And as much as I love the series, I have never agreed with Whedon using the soul as a measure of moral compass for all beings - supernatural or otherwise. It strikes me as one-dimensional characterization and unrealistic.

 

[Taaroko]

Says who? You? Because I don't buy it. I don't see the soul as a measure of moral compass. And as much as I love the series, I have never agreed with Whedon using the soul as a measure of moral compass for all beings - supernatural or otherwise. It strikes me as one-dimensional characterization and unrealistic.

Uh, yeah, says me. Hence using "I" a lot throughout my post. What I said is all based on my opinion, and you don't have to buy it. I never said it was fact--it's all only what seems most logical to me. You just seemed to be misunderstanding what I said before, so I was clarifying. Also, you yourself just said that Joss used the soul as a measure of moral compass for all beings, so how can you say I'm wrong within the context of the show? Not that I think the soul is only a moral compass, but I do think that the moral compass is part of the soul (and only the soul). I don't entirely agree with Joss about what the soul is either; I mean, he's an atheist and I'm very religious, so we're unlikely to agree on that sort of thing in real life anyway, but within the show(s), I think his presentation of the soul works.

 

[Kana]

Yeah, I think this is the problem. I don't believe in a mystical ball of conscience in real life, but it clearly serves a purpose in the Verse. The best way to try and reconcile it, is likening the soul to a sort of biological altruism, that is designed to benefit humans. Vampires being a different species lack this and undergo a psycholgical and physiological change. Virtually all humans who are turned go through this.

Despite the talks of "It's all gray" I think it's fair to say Spike redemption really started after he got a soul, because the preceeding changes were more to do with finding is identity rather than actually seeing anything morally wrong with his past lifestyle. This better explains how he is so at home his past crimes, even joking about killing humans in front of Buffy (I wasn't too impressed that Buffy almost found that funny, but that's another issue). His journey wasn't what I'd call a conscious journey into the light, then again, at first neither was Angel's. They were both subject to circumstance, used them to become the champions they are now (Angel's wonkiness notwithstanding).

The balance, I find is to not overglorify him (as some, but not all Spike fans do) or chastise him too much. I'll admit I don't always like his 'style' of handling things but I do admire how he tends to live in the now and face outwards rather navel-gaze. I admire it but still relate more to Angel.