"Why the Spike hate?" Continued

[StarSlayer]

Here's a problem....if soulless vampires have the capacity to TRULY change, and to love and to renounce their evil ways and to be good "people"...well, then, Buffy has no business killing any of them because that makes them human. And instead she should become "Buffy, the Vampire Rehabilitator" and should get them showers and jobs at Wal-Mart and they should be allowed to be upstanding members of society, unless they choose to remain evil, and then they should go through the legal system. And anytime Buffy kills a vampire or demon without giving them a chance to change, she should go through the legal system too.

See how the world...falls apart? I do think that Spike changed...but not exactly as its being described, or else everything is different and Buffy's whole universe needs to be reevaluated.

You're missing a crucial element though, which will bring the world back to its proper order, lol. Spike wanted to change. No other soulless vampire that Buffy came across wanted to be good.

 

[The Unspoken]

Here's a problem....if soulless vampires have the capacity to TRULY change, and to love and to renounce their evil ways and to be good "people"...well, then, Buffy has no business killing any of them because that makes them human. And instead she should become "Buffy, the Vampire Rehabilitator" and should get them showers and jobs at Wal-Mart and they should be allowed to be upstanding members of society, unless they choose to remain evil, and then they should go through the legal system. And anytime Buffy kills a vampire or demon without giving them a chance to change, she should go through the legal system too.

See how the world...falls apart? I do think that Spike changed...but not exactly as its being described, or else everything is different and Buffy's whole universe needs to be reevaluated.

The circumstances surrounding Spike were exceptional - the chip, his deep love for Buffy and most importantly: Buffy's skillful use of her tongue in various S&M scenario's.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Here's a problem....if soulless vampires have the capacity to TRULY change, and to love and to renounce their evil ways and to be good "people"...well, then, Buffy has no business killing any of them because that makes them human. And instead she should become "Buffy, the Vampire Rehabilitator" and should get them showers and jobs at Wal-Mart and they should be allowed to be upstanding members of society, unless they choose to remain evil, and then they should go through the legal system. And anytime Buffy kills a vampire or demon without giving them a chance to change, she should go through the legal system too.

See how the world...falls apart? I do think that Spike changed...but not exactly as its being described, or else everything is different and Buffy's whole universe needs to be reevaluated.

I don't think the world falls apart 😛

For one, the Buffyverse doesn't operate on the idea of 'innocent until proven guilty', lol, not for vampires. 😉

Anyway, in Spike's case, from Season 5 on, it looks like Spike actually shows the potential to be good. That's when it really looks to be morally wrong to stake him, whereas in Season 4 the Scoobies are mostly just feeling pity for him. (And before that, they were clearly trying to kill each other, save for a brief truce in Becoming.)

The reasoning behind not killing him then is not that he's got potential, but that he acts on that potential. All the other random vamps Buffy kills on patrol have just risen from the grave or worse, they're hunting people. They're clearly not showing any capacity for goodness, nor do they come with government issued violence-inhibiting chips. 😛 There's no reason why Buffy should believe in a possibility for good (or, at least, that they won't physically hurt people), but for Spike, at that point in the series, he starts to prove himself.

 

[fly on the wall]

Okay...but say Buffy bumps into a random vampire in an alley. Perhaps the vampire is about to bite someone....or maybe the vampire is contemplating biting the person but is struggling in a huge existential way and wants to change. How is Buffy supposed to know the difference? How in the world is Buffy to know that a vampire WANTS to change?

The Buffyverse operates on the idea that demons are bad and soulless and must be slayed. Humans can be bad and evil and horrible but it's not Buffy's place to murder them. She's a Slayer, not a killer. Unless, of course, soulless vampires can truly change.

 

[StarSlayer]

Okay...but say Buffy bumps into a random vampire in an alley. Perhaps the vampire is about to bite someone....or maybe the vampire is contemplating biting the person but is struggling in a huge existential way and wants to change. How is Buffy supposed to know the difference? How in the world is Buffy to know that a vampire WANTS to change?

The Buffyverse operates on the idea that demons are bad and soulless and must be slayed. Humans can be bad and evil and horrible but it's not Buffy's place to murder them. She's a Slayer, not a killer. Unless, of course, soulless vampires can truly change.

Buffy didn't believe Spike really wanted to change until she saw it, specifically in "Intervention." For her, he was an exception. Nevertheless, one could argue that if she saw a vampire trying to be good and actually believed them, who's to say she wouldn't kill them? Either way, I think it's a rather silly assumption to say Buffy should now suddenly stop and ask all vampires if they want to be good because none of those vampires had a chip to deal with in their heads. Also, if you want to argue that the Buffyverse operates on the idea that demons are bad and soulless and must be slayed, then shouldn't have Buffy killed Clem? But, as we saw, Clem was a rather good demon, lol!

 

[prophecygrrl]

Okay...but say Buffy bumps into a random vampire in an alley. Perhaps the vampire is about to bite someone....or maybe the vampire is contemplating biting the person but is struggling in a huge existential way and wants to change. How is Buffy supposed to know the difference? How in the world is Buffy to know that a vampire WANTS to change?

The Buffyverse operates on the idea that demons are bad and soulless and must be slayed. Humans can be bad and evil and horrible but it's not Buffy's place to murder them. She's a Slayer, not a killer. Unless, of course, soulless vampires can truly change.

Keep in mind, when we argue for Spike's soulless state, we're not arguing for every soulless vampire out there.
Spike from Season 4 on is an anomaly. Not just in how the fandom views him, but literally in the vampire world. With the chip, he's the combination of old vs. new, mystical monster controlled by human technological innovation. He's a first. (Or at least, he's the first chipped vampire that escapes and is able to live relatively comfortably for several years among humans. The other chipped ones in the Initiative are disposed of...) What the Initiative physically changes in him gives him the opportunity to change profoundly. He isn't a normal vampire anymore. He has to change. He has to adapt. His way of doing that, especially after his spectacular failure in collaborating with Adam, is in falling in love with Buffy and trying to be good. I don't believe anyone is arguing that he succeeded in fully changing as a soulless vamp- that, he apparently couldn't do without a soul. He tries to rape Buffy, which is pretty much as evil and regressive as you can get. Like I said before, hence the soul-getting. 😀 I don't think it's until Season 7 that one can say he "truly changed".

ETA: Oh, poo. I realized I forgot to address the scenario you mentioned. Basically, like I said with Spike being all special and stuff 😀, a regular vamp contemplating good vs. evil really wouldn't happen. No chip=no basis for the existential crisis in the first place, no?

 

[fly on the wall]

Well, the Initiative was pretty sketchy and we didn't really ever know for a fact what they were doing. They weren't exactly letting Buffy know, "Yes, we put chips in vampires and release them back into the wild." But how did she know they weren't doing that?

And yes, I agree, Spike was an anomaly, his circumstance was special and unique...but the fact remains, if ONE VAMPIRE could do it (regardless of the reasons) then why couldn't others? I know that the discussion is never about OTHER vampires' soulless states...but I guess that's why I'm asking, why not?

 

[zobothehobo]

Well, the Initiative was pretty sketchy and we didn't really ever know for a fact what they were doing. They weren't exactly letting Buffy know, "Yes, we put chips in vampires and release them back into the wild." But how did she know they weren't doing that?

And yes, I agree, Spike was an anomaly, his circumstance was special and unique...but the fact remains, if ONE VAMPIRE could do it (regardless of the reasons) then why couldn't others? I know that the discussion is never about OTHER vampires' soulless states...but I guess that's why I'm asking, why not?

If we were introduced to another chipped vampire who wanted to be good, or just another chipped vampire in general, I'd give them the same chances Spike got and I'd expect Buffy to do the same

 

[StarSlayer]

And yes, I agree, Spike was an anomaly, his circumstance was special and unique...but the fact remains, if ONE VAMPIRE could do it (regardless of the reasons) then why couldn't others? I know that the discussion is never about OTHER vampires' soulless states...but I guess that's why I'm asking, why not?

Because we never saw any other vampire get a chip in their head and then see the results of that. It certainly could be possible (anything is possible in the Buffyverse, right 😉), but IMO it's just a generalization to assume all other soulless vampires could and want to be good because they weren't dealing with a chip in their brains. It's like I was saying before. Every vampire that we saw had their own unique journey, and Spike was one of them. 🙂

 

[prophecygrrl]

Well, the Initiative was pretty sketchy and we didn't really ever know for a fact what they were doing. They weren't exactly letting Buffy know, "Yes, we put chips in vampires and release them back into the wild." But how did she know they weren't doing that?

Meh, I don't think the question is the Initiative's agenda. It's sketchy as heck, yeah, but the chip's role in Spike's characterization doesn't change. Chances of there being another escaped chipped vampire are probably really slim too, considering how security is for the captured demons and how they probably upped security after Spike escaped and they never recaptured him. IDK. Things get a bit fanwanky from there, and I suppose we could fill in the plot holes with whatever we want, if we decide that there are plot holes. Taking from what's in canon though, I don't think Spike's case, even on a very, very slim chance, can work as a cautionary tale against killing soulless vampires, cause again...it's pretty well established the chip and his legitimate desire to change (desire fueled by love for Buffy, hatred for himself, an existential crisis, or all/any of the above, you can decide 🙂) makes him unique.

And yes, I agree, Spike was an anomaly, his circumstance was special and unique...but the fact remains, if ONE VAMPIRE could do it (regardless of the reasons) then why couldn't others? I know that the discussion is never about OTHER vampires' soulless states...but I guess that's why I'm asking, why not?

But the reasons are exactly why this one vampire could do it! 😛 We can't disregard them! 😀
Interestingly, we were actually given another soulless vampire trying to do good. We got Harmony in AtS Season 5! 😀 She had similar negative reinforcement for not doing evil things (if she did, she thought Angel would hurt/fire/kill her, similar to if Spike did something violent, the chip would hurt him), but she couldn't change. Why? We can't be sure, obviously, but there's one crucial difference in their stories. Spike was in love. He was disgusted with his actions later on, and his chip was much more restrictive than Harmony's situation. Spike had a real, powerful motivation to change. Harmony didn't fundamentally desire change. Her choice to be "good" wasn't fueled by love (except maybe for herself 😛), or an existential crisis, or anything actually profound. All in all, Harmony was superficial. There's nothing in the show that suggests she wanted to actually change. And in the end, she didn't. I think it comes down to powerful motivation and capacity for soulless vamps.

ETA: Oh, and just wanted to add that Harmony *did* succeed for a good while as a soulless being. As did Spike, really. Neither of them could be truly good without a soul, as the Buffyverse consistently suggests. Still, difference in their stories was that Spike took it upon himself to get a soul after he realized this, Harmony not so much, lol.

 

[frankie]

So here is my little theory on Spike and how I try and make sense of his good and bad sides.

There was the first slayer, she was giving the essence of a demon which turned her into a more savage and primal slayer than we see with Buffy, over time this power went from slayer to slayer leaving us with the modern slayer. The demon traits for violence/evil lessened and lessened as the power passed. The slayers "soul" holding it at bay and leaving the demonic nature dormant - but the demon is still a a part of the slayer.

For me it's the same with vampires. The first pure vampire demon passed it's essence to a human, killing it, thus removing it's soul, and the demonic nature was active - no soul to hold it at bay. This again became passed on through generations of vampires and lessened leaving a demon that was less viscous and over-kill. My idea of the earliest vampires would have been similar to turok-hans. The demon essence rested in a way and began to use or take on traits and memories of the humans body it took. The human remains a part of the demon - but the soul is the real deciding factor.

We've seen with Angelus and Spike that their kill patterns seem to target family connections, so there is a human response there, Angelus kills his family, Spike his mother. Spike tries to save his mother, he loves Drusilla - there are basic human traits there, the demon just taints them and makes them viscous and dark.

So Spike as a vampire is very much capable of love and affection, but a demon's version of it, which it a twisted version of the human norm. All bloody and dark and scary 😀. The soul isn't there to allow the norm to happen, the demon still runs the show. Enter the chip.
The chip holds the demon at bay in a way. The capacity of love and affection are still there but the demon can't mix that with the violence and death which it thrives on. So it takes a back seat and Spike gets those same feelings for Buffy and the demon can't act on it in the way it normally would. So Spike does develop what I consider to be real feelings for Buffy, because the demon can't do anything about it.

I think when it eventually can when Buffy "comes back wrong". It begins that twisted version of love again but it's still on a leash. It can hurt Buffy but no one else. So the demon is lacking the motivation to completely be let loose, it can kill Buffy, turn her - but that's all it gets, so it let's the Spike/William part of it's self some freedom again. He falls for Buffy, and gets that twisted, darkness it craves because Buffy isn't herself. So for me Spike/William loved Buffy before her death. The demon loves her after she comes back wrong. When Buffy stops the relationship, the demon cuts loose again, tries to get that twisted love by hurting her but Buffy fights back, holds it at bay and Spike/William sees the girl he loved.
So what does the demon do. It can hurt and kill only one girl in the world. if it does. It's dead, it can't hurt the scoobies so they'll kill it for hurting their friend. So it gives up, basically and lets Spike/William do what he wants, and that is to get a soul. And that twisted sick little part of itself enjoys the fact that Buffy will have to deal with that.

So that's my little or quite long theory. 😀

The soul is not an infallible thing though. A chip can allow a vampire to love care and protect. A soul can allow Warren to kill. The case with Spike was that if the soul was there the demon would have been kept at bay, but it wasn't so it could still hurt Buffy. And it did. The demon was too strong, the chip wasn't enough. The demon is a part of the slayer, the human is a part of the vampire. The soul seems to be what can stop the demon taking complete control.

Part of me thinks that the essence that created the slayer is the one that created the vampires. That's why the soul is so pivotal in making a distinction. Maybe that's why she's called the vampire slayer and not the demon slayer. The capacity for good might exist within other demons without a soul, or maybe they have a soul. Clem seems to be good. Vampires seem to be the ones where a soul is definitely a necessity to fall into the good category. A chip helps but it doesn't seal the deal. 😀

 

[Taaroko]

Okay, gonna back up fly on the wall more substantially now.

Other types of demons, while indeed a much more complex ethical issue, are irrelevant. The term "demon" is really used too broadly. Some are clearly good or benign and must therefore have some type of soul, though obviously it wouldn't be a human one. Others range from crafty, sadistic fiends to barely intelligent monsters. Sometimes the difference isn't readily apparent, as Angel was unfortunate enough to discover the hard way in "Judgement".

But soulless vampires are the issue here, and there is no such gray area with this type of demon. There can't be, not even for one of them. Otherwise, as we've said over and over, Buffy wouldn't be able to get away with her "slay first, ask questions never" policy. There can't be a possibility for a soulless demon to redeem itself. They are always irredeemably evil at their core, because their core is this type of demon. They lose all inherent goodness the moment their souls leave their bodies. The only "humanity" remaining is memory, neutral abilities and skills, and selfish human vice.

Regardless of his exceptional circumstances, Spike does not get to be a special exception, because you cannot assume that he would be the only one who doesn't fit the pattern (or wouldn't fit, given the chance). If he doesn't fit the pattern, then the pattern is a lie, and Buffy shouldn't be slaying vampires on the assumption that they're irredeemably evil. Fortunately, they are. Just because one of them is occasionally helpful, disturbingly obsessed with her, and unwillingly prevented from hurting humans, it does not make him less irredeemably evil. As Giles said, "A vampire isn't a person at all. It may have the movements, the memories, even the personality of the person it took over, but it's still a demon at the core. There is no halfway."

The chip isn't a substitute for a soul. It doesn't even come close. Just because some creatures with souls choose to commit crimes, it doesn't mean they couldn't have chosen differently. That is why we are able to subject them to justice, because they had the ability to choose better, but didn't. Soulless vampires don't have that ability.

Spike's chip is a shock collar. All it does is indiscriminately punish him for harming humans, not even making exceptions for when it wouldn't be evil to do so, like for self-defense or to protect someone else. He is allowed no choice in the matter, and clearly hates it. Any love he claims to feel is the imaginary creation of his romanticizing tendencies. He proves time and time again, both with Drusilla and later with Buffy, that the "love" he feels is all about him. He tries to change them or forcibly persuade them if they are unwilling to reciprocate. Getting his soul is just one more way of trying to *make* Buffy love him. It isn't to redeem himself, it's to escape blame. He wants a free pass for everything he did to hurt her, and he wants to nullify what he considers to be the only factor in her inability to love him (his soullessness). It is a reckless, foolish, and selfish action, no matter how positive the outcome proves to be, and it's even a little cruel, because it denies her the option of hating him for what he did to her (or tried to do).

He succeeds, and that's exactly what happens. Once he has a soul, he *should* get a free pass, because the soul had nothing to do with any of that, and the soul is what really matters. Nothing he did before he got it counts on his balance sheet now, but he and Buffy still have to deal with the fact that it all happened. The only problem is that the Spike Buffy needs to deal with so that she can properly get past it all doesn't exist anymore, and she's left feeling obligated to take responsibility for the Spike who exists now.

Until he gets his soul, his best bet for survival is relying on the Scoobies' ill-founded (and completely contrived) tolerance of him. By venting his urge to kill on demons, he makes himself an enemy to them. Only the protection of the Scoobies and the Slayer keeps him from getting in serious trouble with the demonic community. He has no choice but to stay in the Scoobies' good books, even when Buffy is gone. Selfish motives can be found at the root of everything he does, even if the effect benefits someone besides him. Everything he does to "prove himself" to Buffy is not done selflessly, but out of the erroneous expectation that he should and will receive a reward for it--which would include anything from not getting staked, to being allowed to be (sort of) included in the group, to Buffy admitting having feelings that he's so convinced are really there.

Fortunately, once he has a soul, this is no longer a problem, because that's what having a soul means. His selfish motivations can finally be replaced with pure ones. Not that they all are, because the ability of soulful beings to be selfless does not diminish their ability to be selfish.

It's much easier to sympathize with something soulless when it wears a human face, which is just as true of the audience as of the other characters. The Scoobies don't kill him while he has a chip because the writers wanted to keep him around because they are (grudgingly) extending mercy, something that only their souls allow them to extend. It isn't a logical decision. The logical (and also safer, smarter, and more ethical) decision would be for them to realize that he's much easier to get rid of if he can't fight back, so stake him before he can find a way to get the chip out. They couldn't bring themselves to kill vamp Willow either, and she wasn't even remotely harmless. They couldn't have known she would be staked seconds after returning to her world; for all they knew, she could have ended up killing thousands of people there, but still they let her go. Like her, Spike was able to prey upon their sympathies by seeming helpless and pitiable--and, eventually, helpful. He even did it in "Becoming" and "Lovers Walk"; Buffy let him go, even though she must have known that he would go right back to killing people once he left town. And then she lets him go again in "The Harsh Light of Day". Keeping him alive never has anything to do with believing he is capable of changing.

And I don't think your theory about vampires works, frankie. The turok-han were never human to begin with. They could easily have the exact amount of demon in them as human-based vampires (which is enough demon that Angel's was able to destroy a powerful demon like Eyghon via inner battle within seconds), but they don't have any of the memories, neutral skills and abilities, or selfish human vices that flavor what human-based vampires become. All they have is bloodlust and a desire to kill, plus the strength and senses to make them really good at it.

We don't know what kind of demon's essence the Shadow Men used to create the first Slayer. It wasn't necessarily a vampire demon. Even if it was, the effect of inhabiting a living, breathing, soulful human being on such a demon would be very profound. Bloodlust would be rendered unnecessary, because humans make their own blood. Lust for the kill would be directed against other demons, already the natural enemies of the human. It wasn't necessarily tamed naturally over time. The Shadow Men's descendants (or perhaps the Guardians, who seemed to care a whole lot more about the well-being of the Slayer herself) may have used magic to fine-tune it until they had the human/demon combination that worked best. (Trial and error: as crucial to dodgy magic as it is to science.) And in any case, it isn't until Buffy gets resurrected that Spike can physically hurt her while his chip still works, so whatever demonic quality is the source of her power (if it's still even demonic at all) isn't significant enough to register with it.

 

[StarSlayer]

^Taaroko, I disagree with a lot of your opinions on the matter, but I respect them. 🙂 I think when it comes to the Buffyverse, there can be gray areas. 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You depict Spike's motives for getting his soul back as sick and disgusting (as befitting a being devoid of a soul), yet you insist this makes the premise of the show - and the Slayer's duty - problematic.

 

[Taaroko]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You depict Spike's motives for getting his soul back as sick and disgusting (as befitting a being devoid of a soul), yet you insist this makes the premise of the show - and the Slayer's duty - problematic.

No I'm not. I'm saying that what contradicts the premise of the show and makes the Slayer's duty problematic is allowing Spike to be an exception to the rule that soulless beings cannot truly change for the better. The only way the show works is if there are no exceptions to this rule, and Spike's motives while soulless were always selfish in some way.

 

[StarSlayer]

No I'm not. I'm saying that what contradicts the premise of the show and makes the Slayer's duty problematic is allowing Spike to be an exception to the rule that soulless beings cannot truly change for the better.

And I again ask how that in any way contradicts the premises of the show or makes Buffy's duties problematic? Spike had a chip so he no longer was a threat to the human race. Buffy saw it as an opportunity to learn more about the demon world from an inside source (even if she had to pay Spike for information) and thus, become a better slayer. If Spike was then willing to fight demons, whether it be for getting his violent fix or because he loves Buffy, it still was helping Buffy in her fight against evil.

 

[Taaroko]

And I again ask how that in any way contradicts the premises of the show or makes Buffy's duties problematic? Spike had a chip so he no longer was a threat to the human race. Buffy saw it as an opportunity to learn more about the demon world from an inside source (even if she had to pay Spike for information) and thus, become a better slayer. If Spike was then willing to fight demons, whether it be for getting his violent fix or because he loves Buffy, it still was helping Buffy in her fight against evil.

That still doesn't contradict my point. Just because Spike is *useful* to Buffy, it doesn't mean he's less irredeemably evil than he was before he had a chip. He just has fewer ways to express that evil and isn't currently a danger to the people she's supposed to protect. She chose to explore his potential usefulness rather than eliminate the risk he presented by existing. It doesn't contradict the show for Buffy to make use of Spike, it contradicts the show for him to be capable of changing for the better while he doesn't have a soul.

 

[StarSlayer]

That still doesn't contradict my point. Just because Spike is *useful* to Buffy, it doesn't mean he's less irredeemably evil than he was before he had a chip. He just has fewer ways to express that evil and isn't currently a danger to the people she's supposed to protect. She chose to explore his potential usefulness rather than eliminate the risk he presented by existing. It doesn't contradict the show for Buffy to make use of Spike, it contradicts the show for him to be capable of changing for the better while he doesn't have a soul.

You mentioned that Spike being the exception makes Buffy's duties problematic, which I disagreed with as I discussed in my previous post (posts for that matter). And as I've stated before (here and the other thread), I don't think it contradicts the show for Spike to be capable of changing for the better while he doesn't have a soul. Instead, IMO, it explores the mythology more. But I respect your opinions on the matter. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And I again ask how that makes Buffy's duties problematic?

Buffy THE VAMPIRE SLAYER... Spike, Angel.. vampires. If she was the vampire shagger there would be little problem.

 

[The Unspoken]

That still doesn't contradict my point. Just because Spike is *useful* to Buffy, it doesn't mean he's less irredeemably evil than he was before he had a chip. He just has fewer ways to express that evil and isn't currently a danger to the people she's supposed to protect. She chose to explore his potential usefulness rather than eliminate the risk he presented by existing. It doesn't contradict the show for Buffy to make use of Spike, it contradicts the show for him to be capable of changing for the better while he doesn't have a soul.

But if the chip is required to cultivate Spike into desiring a soul, and since there are no (more) chipped vampires in existence, it doesn't contradict the premise of the show at all.

By 'cultivate' I don't necessarily mean any psychological effect but rather the circumstances under which Spike would be prompted to seek out a soul. Like say...banging Buffy on a regular basis.