William Pratt, William the Bloody, and Spike

[Wishing Oceans]

So, did anyone else notice that Spike often talks in third person and refers to himself as "us"? Examples: "Give us a moment. Got some bones need mending." -Intervention. "Give us a second." - Forever.

Now, it may just be some quirky Spike- thing. Or it could be that he thinks of the three different lives he lived (William Pratt, William the Blood, Spike) as three separate identities.

Random fact: When the scoobies talk about evil Spike, they call him William the Bloody, like in Never Leave Me.

Anyway, back to the separate identities thing. 🙂 When referring to himself as "us" it may be he thinks all of these people are still inside him, making him who he is. After all, in Angel S5 NFA he DID go back to reading poetry again.

As for the third person speaking, it may be as though he likes to refer to himself as who he feels like at the moment. If he's talking about himself as Spike and not as William, then he'll say "let Spike help you", instead of saying something like "let William help you."

Now, a common question is who Spike was talking to when he said in Beneath You "it's what YOU wanted, right?" Some people like to say it was God, but I don't see Spike as a "faith following" kind of person. Perhaps he was talking to William Pratt, his human self? William P. was dead, which would explain his looking up "to the heavens". Also, William, being the sweetheart that he was, wouldn't have wanted himself to go hurting his love, and would've wanted him to get a soul and be able to properly love his lady. 😀

So, why might Spike want to separate his different alter ego's and then combine them together into one guy that's neither truly evil nor truly good? Maybe he's unsure of who he really was. The writers HAVE said that what makes Spike different is when he was turned he still had a bit of humanity in him. But then again, he was still a vampire. Although he was evil, he still loved his "dark princess" and wasn't interested in torture and "artful evil" or something like that. So he still had William's loving nature, but the killing and lack of inhibitions and classy, posh behavior made him into William the Bloody. But he wasn't really either one. Then, when he got his chip and fell in love with the slayer he got an entirely different personality in itself. He was still technically evil, but became softer and more into doing good. But he still wasn't an actual good guy, because he was doing it for mainly selfish purpose, whereas a true hero is noble and does what's right simply for that reason: Because it's the right thing to do. And then he got his soul. The only thing that actually did was make him nicer and a less capable fighter (at least until Get it Done). But until Angel S5 he still wasn't a "true" good guy, or at least not William Pratt worthy. In Angel S5 he's a good guy who has his TLC moments like WP, but he still has the swag, brash, and sarcastic demeanor of William the Bloody. So he's never just one; He's all of them. Which is why he talks in third person, referring to himself as whoever he is at the moment, and why he calls himself "us", all he aspects of his interchangeable personality.

Thoughts?

 

[Lyri]

While I agree about Spike having issues with his identity, and who he is as a person, especially after getting his soul back, the 'us' thing you're talking about is more of an English/UK thing, a form of slang that we use. We say that a lot when we're talking, for example, 'Give us that' or, as Faith says in 'Graduation Day' 'Give us a kiss'.

So, as I said, I do agree with what you said about Spike and his 'quirks' I wouldn't really base a lot on the 'us' thing, unless you look at it like he wants to involve himself more with the lower classes. William was from a higer class of society that Spike likes people to think he's from, and therefore, had William been around today, he never would have used slang like that. You'll notice that Giles rarely, if ever, would use a term like that, and if he ever did, it would have been during his Ripper phase, or its reincarnation.

 

[xaphania]

Definitely interesting theories, but... using 'us' instead of 'me' like that is pretty common in British English.

It's not grammatically correct, but you'll hear it a lot. I've just tried to find some links, or examples, but I'm not having any luck.

But I know I've heard people say things like, "Give us a look," or "Pass us the crisps," when they're simply referring to themselves and not someone else as well.

Maybe some other Brits can confirm this? Cos I'm doubting myself now, at the total lack of info on this. Or perhaps my googling skills are shoddy, lol.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

While I agree about Spike having issues with his identity, and who he is as a person, especially after getting his soul back, the 'us' thing you're talking about is more of an English/UK thing, a form of slang that we use. We say that a lot when we're talking, for example, 'Give us that' or, as Faith says in 'Graduation Day' 'Give us a kiss'.

So, as I said, I do agree with what you said about Spike and his 'quirks' I wouldn't really base a lot on the 'us' thing, unless you look at it like he wants to involve himself more with the lower classes. William was from a higer class of society that Spike likes people to think he's from, and therefore, had William been around today, he never would have used slang like that. You'll notice that Giles rarely, if ever, would use a term like that, and if he ever did, it would have been during his Ripper phase, or its reincarnation.

Haha really? THAT'S interesting, never heard of slang like that before. 😀

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

Yeah its british(irish use it too) stuff. For example, 'give us a minute' or 'give us a smoke'. Us just means Me. 🙂

 

[Kean]

Yeah its british(irish use it too) stuff. For example, 'give us a minute' or 'give us a smoke'. Us just means Me. 🙂

Exactly, it's not unlike the Royal "We".

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So, did anyone else notice that Spike often talks in third person and refers to himself as "us"? Examples: "Give us a moment. Got some bones need mending." -Intervention. "Give us a second." - Forever.

Interesting idea! I don't think I've ever noticed this.

Now, it may just be some quirky Spike- thing. Or it could be that he thinks of the three different lives he lived (William Pratt, William the Blood, Spike) as three separate identities.

So, this might be a stupid question, but by William Pratt, you're referring to Spike's human self, yes?

This is a fantastic theory, Oriana...Spike thinking of himself as separate identities at different points in his life. After all, we see Angel/Angelus as two distinctly separate entities, it seems logical that we should treat Spike in a similar way.

Random fact: When the scoobies talk about evil Spike, they call him William the Bloody, like in Never Leave Me.

True. Yet, they always refer to Angel as "Angel", right? Even when Angelus is present? Interesting.

Anyway, back to the separate identities thing. 🙂 When referring to himself as "us" it may be he thinks all of these people are still inside him, making him who he is. After all, in Angel S5 NFA he DID go back to reading poetry again.

This totally makes sense. I believe that everything we are and were, everyone we have met, and everything we have done has a hand in the person are. Spike's time as Human and his time pre-soul as a demon (William the Bloody) are a part of him, despite the fact that we feel he's transcended those previous roles. Perhaps we're yet to see what Spike will become. God knows he's always changing on us.

As for the third person speaking, it may be as though he likes to refer to himself as who he feels like at the moment. If he's talking about himself as Spike and not as William, then he'll say "let Spike help you", instead of saying something like "let William help you."

Perhaps. Again, interesting observation.

Now, a common question is who Spike was talking to when he said in Beneath You "it's what YOU wanted, right?" Some people like to say it was God, but I don't see Spike as a "faith following" kind of person. Perhaps he was talking to William Pratt, his human self? William P. was dead, which would explain his looking up "to the heavens". Also, William, being the sweetheart that he was, wouldn't have wanted himself to go hurting his love, and would've wanted him to get a soul and be able to properly love his lady. 😀

Interesting! This reminds me of that thread I started a while back regarding that line in 'Beneath You.' I think he was talking to God, I have decided. But it makes as much sense that he could be talking to his former self.

So, why might Spike want to separate his different alter ego's and then combine them together into one guy that's neither truly evil nor truly good?

At this point, perhaps to further differentiate himself with his former self? He is ashamed and regretful in regards to what he's done in the past, that's clear.

Maybe he's unsure of who he really was. The writers HAVE said that what makes Spike different is when he was turned he still had a bit of humanity in him. But then again, he was still a vampire. Although he was evil, he still loved his "dark princess" and wasn't interested in torture and "artful evil" or something like that. So he still had William's loving nature, but the killing and lack of inhibitions and classy, posh behavior made him into William the Bloody. But he wasn't really either one. Then, when he got his chip and fell in love with the slayer he got an entirely different personality in itself. He was still technically evil, but became softer and more into doing good. But he still wasn't an actual good guy, because he was doing it for mainly selfish purpose, whereas a true hero is noble and does what's right simply for that reason: Because it's the right thing to do. And then he got his soul. The only thing that actually did was make him nicer and a less capable fighter (at least until Get it Done). But until Angel S5 he still wasn't a "true" good guy, or at least not William Pratt worthy. In Angel S5 he's a good guy who has his TLC moments like WP, but he still has the swag, brash, and sarcastic demeanor of William the Bloody. So he's never just one; He's all of them. Which is why he talks in third person, referring to himself as whoever he is at the moment, and why he calls himself "us", all he aspects of his interchangeable personality.

Well, there is a reason why I call him my little Vampire Chameleon; he's constantly changing and re-evaluating himself. That's what keeps him moving in the right direction of self-improvement and self-realization.

Oriana, you're very smart. 🙂 I like your theory about him being unsure of who he was/is. Like I said earlier, perhaps he is still finding that out. Maybe he had to get to a place where he was no longer in the shadow of a woman he loves in order to really do some soul-searching and for lack of a better term, "find" himself.

Perhaps the real Spike Champion is yet to come. I have a feeling he'll surprise us yet!

Edit: So maybe it is just a slang thing.

I still really like your theories, though.

 

[Kelsey]

So, did anyone else notice that Spike often talks in third person and refers to himself as "us"? Examples: "Give us a moment. Got some bones need mending." -Intervention. "Give us a second." - Forever.

It's definitely slang, as the others have mentioned. I always found it adorable just the same, though!

Now, it may just be some quirky Spike- thing. Or it could be that he thinks of the three different lives he lived (William Pratt, William the Blood, Spike) as three separate identities.

It may not tie into him saying "us," but it's an excellent theory. Sort of in the way Angel isn't his human counterpart Liam or his demon counterpart Angelus, but an entirely separate entity. William Pratt, William the Bloody, and Spike were always talking in Spike's head, like he said in Beneath You. The soul restored his humanity more fully, but it was there from the start. I always thought William's loving nature was also what gave Spike his humanity, even if a bit of the human William wasn't left behind. He was a fool for love from the very beginning, and that trait carried over into his vampire self, as human traits often do. That made him able to love more deeply and truly than most vampires can, and it helped him keep his humanity. Love has always been Spike's savior.

Now, a common question is who Spike was talking to when he said in Beneath You "it's what YOU wanted, right?" Some people like to say it was God, but I don't see Spike as a "faith following" kind of person. Perhaps he was talking to William Pratt, his human self? William P. was dead, which would explain his looking up "to the heavens". Also, William, being the sweetheart that he was, wouldn't have wanted himself to go hurting his love, and would've wanted him to get a soul and be able to properly love his lady. 😀

Hmm, again, interesting theory! At first I thought he was talking to The First, but that just doesn't make any sense. Unless perhaps The First was still in Buffy's shape, and was lingering around? In which case, maybe he said "It's what you wanted!" to Buffy the first time, and to The-First-As-Buffy the second time. He had no idea why ghosts were haunting him in the basement, so perhaps his insanity made him confused as to who actually was Buffy.

So he still had William's loving nature, but the killing and lack of inhibitions and classy, posh behavior made him into William the Bloody. But he wasn't really either one. Then, when he got his chip and fell in love with the slayer he got an entirely different personality in itself. He was still technically evil, but became softer and more into doing good. But he still wasn't an actual good guy, because he was doing it for mainly selfish purpose, whereas a true hero is noble and does what's right simply for that reason: Because it's the right thing to do. And then he got his soul. The only thing that actually did was make him nicer and a less capable fighter (at least until Get it Done). But until Angel S5 he still wasn't a "true" good guy, or at least not William Pratt worthy. In Angel S5 he's a good guy who has his TLC moments like WP, but he still has the swag, brash, and sarcastic demeanor of William the Bloody. So he's never just one; He's all of them. Which is why he talks in third person, referring to himself as whoever he is at the moment, and why he calls himself "us", all he aspects of his interchangeable personality.

I don't quite agree with all you said here about Spike and the definition of a hero, but I think that's more personal perception than anything, so I won't argue it! But I agree that he had three very distinct personalities, and that they all combined to create a very complex individual who was neither entirely good nor entirely evil. He was basically a lot like the average person. Monsters always represent real human dilemmas on BtVS, and I think Spike definitely did. He was all about being at war with himself; feeling one thing and wanting to do another, thinking he should act this way but really wanting to be entirely different. He was constantly conflicted, and it was just brilliant to watch.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's definitely slang, as the others have mentioned. I always found it adorable just the same, though!



It may not tie into him saying "us," but it's an excellent theory. Sort of in the way Angel isn't his human counterpart Liam or his demon counterpart Angelus, but an entirely separate entity. William Pratt, William the Bloody, and Spike were always talking in Spike's head, like he said in Beneath You. The soul restored his humanity more fully, but it was there from the start. I always thought William's loving nature was also what gave Spike his humanity, even if a bit of the human William wasn't left behind. He was a fool for love from the very beginning, and that trait carried over into his vampire self, as human traits often do. That made him able to love more deeply and truly than most vampires can, and it helped him keep his humanity. Love has always been Spike's savior.

Wow, what great comments, Kelsey. People always refer to the fact that Spike is 'loves bitch' is a negative light, like that he's a toy or a puppet to love - but I have always seen it differently. To me, there's nothing wrong with love being the catalyst for self-improvement, or as you put it, as a 'savior.' Love made Spike a better man. I love that. Buffy made Spike a better man and in turn, his love gave her the strength to continue to fight, to love again, and to embrace not hate the darkness inside of her.

Hmm, again, interesting theory! At first I thought he was talking to The First, but that just doesn't make any sense. Unless perhaps The First was still in Buffy's shape, and was lingering around? In which case, maybe he said "It's what you wanted!" to Buffy the first time, and to The-First-As-Buffy the second time. He had no idea why ghosts were haunting him in the basement, so perhaps his insanity made him confused as to who actually was Buffy.

You should check out my thread on this: Episode Discussion Beneath You- The First, Spike's insanity, and Christian symbolism in the Buffyverse - Buffy-Boards
I'd love your input.

I don't quite agree with all you said here about Spike and the definition of a hero, but I think that's more personal perception than anything, so I won't argue it! But I agree that he had three very distinct personalities, and that they all combined to create a very complex individual who was neither entirely good nor entirely evil. He was basically a lot like the average person. Monsters always represent real human dilemmas on BtVS, and I think Spike definitely did. He was all about being at war with himself; feeling one thing and wanting to do another, thinking he should act this way but really wanting to be entirely different. He was constantly conflicted, and it was just brilliant to watch.

I specifically like what you've said that I hi-lighted, and I agree. Spike was in my opinion (as Faith was) Buffy's foil, and as you say, he represented everything she feared and fought over in herself. He was in many ways her counterpart, as Joss said.

 

[Kelsey]

Wow, what great comments, Kelsey. People always refer to the fact that Spike is 'loves bitch' is a negative light, like that he's a toy or a puppet to love - but I have always seen it differently. To me, there's nothing wrong with love being the catalyst for self-improvement, or as you put it, as a 'savior.' Love made Spike a better man. I love that. Buffy made Spike a better man and in turn, his love gave her the strength to continue to fight, to love again, and to embrace not hate the darkness inside of her.

I agree! I've always been a little baffled by the idea that Spike's actions were selfish because he was in love. The things he did to win Buffy were selfish, but the sacrifices he made for her certainly weren't. There were times when he specifically helped people only to impress Buffy, and I do agree that this doesn't make him good or a true hero. But to nearly let Glory kill him, to march into battle at Buffy's side and protect Dawn and the others after Buffy was dead and gone? Yes, those were motivated by love, but why on earth do they mean less because of it? They weren't a selfish ploy to win her; they were real.

Like you said, love made Spike a better man. I haven't ever seen the problem with love being his catalyst. Yes, there are other heroes on the show who help because it is simply the right thing to do, and I love them for it. But I have to say, Spike's journey is more interesting. This was a man changing every single thing about himself because he wanted to give the girl he loved everything she deserved.

You should check out my thread on this: Episode Discussion Beneath You- The First, Spike's insanity, and Christian symbolism in the Buffyverse - Buffy-Boards
I'd love your input.

Checking it out now, thanks!

I specifically like what you've said that I hi-lighted, and I agree. Spike was in my opinion (as Faith was) Buffy's foil, and as you say, he represented everything she feared and fought over in herself. He was in many ways her counterpart, as Joss said.

I agree! He made her see the ugly things about herself, and then through loving her, he made her see that those things were okay.

 

[white avenger]

This is probably a stupid question, but when did we establish that William's official last name was Pratt? (Because that just ruined a story that I've been working on)

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

Yeah, where did Pratt come from? I never heard that before.

 

[xaphania]

It was in a comic, as far as I know. It's not canon, but it's been taken up by a large portion of fandom as his surname.

That said, I don't think it would matter if you gave him a different surname in a fic.

 

[ubi4soft]

In Spike - Asylum there's a jar (?) containing pigs blood labeled 'Pratt, William - Vampire'

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Yeah, canonically, William never had a last name.