Wiping memories - was Angel wrong?

[bespangeled]

Season 5 - Angel unilaterally decided to have all memories of Connor erased from his crew.

Since so much of the series dealt with the Connor and the fallout his kidnapping and return, were memories made up for his people? How did the lack of memory, or substitution of different memories affect the other characters - particularly Wesley?

More important, why wipe the minds of his friends? W&H still knew about Connor - what did he expect his friends to do, and why did he feel he couldn't trust them?

Did Angel have the right to make this deal with the devil? He was trying to save his son, who had definitely gotten a raw deal. He was also trying to save himself from the pain of living with his son's death. Could the store situation be solved in some other way - with magic, technology, or something else from W&H?

Angel made the decision to trade the memories of four friends for the life of his son - was he right? Did he have the right?

 

[Blaze]

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think he had the right. No one has the right to violate the autonomy of someone else in my opinion.

Here my issue is not as much for Connor. Because as a minor, and as Angel's son, a point could be made that as a parent, Angel could make a decision for Connor if it was in his best interest without Connor's consent (much like children do not choose whether to receive medical treatment, the parent does, since the child is not viewed as necessarily fully autonomous. This is very much on a case to case basis though.) I think in this case the decision obviously makes sense for Connor, and it's a decision that as a parent Angel can make.

My issue is with Cordelia, Wes, Fred, Gunn, Lorne etc. He had no right to do what he did. Whether it was for Connor's well being, or for the greater good, or for his friend's well being, it doesn't matter it was not right to do that without their consent. It was not right to alter their lives.

And before someone brings it up, I just want to also point out the difference between this and what Angel did in IWRY. In IWRY, the decision was first and foremost Angel's decision, because it was a decision concerning his own body. Sure, Buffy was a factor, and she got dragged into it. But it the end, the decision was Angel's to make because ultimately, he was the one being affected by it. Buffy was only affected by it indirectly, just like a wife might be affected by the decision of her husband to withhold further treatment for his brain cancer. But it's still the husband's decision to make. In Home, Angel did not make a decision about himself, he made a decision about 4 other people which affected those 4 people. It's just as bad as what Willow did, albeit the reasoning behind it was more honorable (which makes a difference, but still doesn't make it acceptable in my book).

Since so much of the series dealt with the Connor and the fallout his kidnapping and return, were memories made up for his people? How did the lack of memory, or substitution of different memories affect the other characters - particularly Wesley?

I wish this was better explained in the show. It's really brushed over. They erased almost 3 years of the show, and they don't fill up the holes. It's bordering on cheap writing in my opinion.

Did Angel have the right to make this deal with the devil? He was trying to save his son, who had definitely gotten a raw deal. He was also trying to save himself from the pain of living with his son's death. Could the store situation be solved in some other way - with magic, technology, or something else from W&H?

I wish they would have just shown Angel deal with killing his son. AtS already had its share of dark plots, but it's still something that I would have wanted to see. But again, I love tragedy. Honestly, after watching BtVS, I think it's pretty clear that you should not dabble with the supernatural to bring back people from the dead. I'm just surprised at how much power W&H had over this.

 

[Lyri]

The wrong thing done for the right reasons is still the wrong thing. And I do think that what Angel did was wrong, but I do understand why he did it.

He wanted to give Connor a normal, regular life and to do that, he needed to get rid of everything that connected him to Angel and Angel's life, which meant erasing his memories. On that front, I get it. It wasn't ethical, but it was the right thing to do for Connor.

Angel's friends are a whole other matter, but I get why he erased their memories of Connor. Angel had a hard time dealing with the fact that he'd given up his son for his own sake, and I think he thought that, if he had the opportunity to stop his friends from feeling what he was going through, he'd take it. I think he wanted to spare his friends the feeling of knowing that Connor was out there somewhere, living a life without them, happy without them. They loved Connor, too, and I think that Angel wanted to spare them that pain.

I don't think it was right, but I understand it.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

I agree with the general consensus that what Angel did was wrong (and he knows it, too; it's weighing on him all throughout season 5), but most parents would do the same for their child. Paternal instincts make people kind of wacky. I can't really say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I were in his shoes.

 

[Silverspike]

"On that front, I get it. It wasn't ethical, but it was the right thing to do for Connor."

But sadly imo not for his friends. Yes I get why he felt the need to do it, but it was partially a selfish act in that Angel (who imo has always been the bigger picture guy) just did what he wanted without hesitation or thinking how it would effect is friends long term.

 

[Lyri]

"On that front, I get it. It wasn't ethical, but it was the right thing to do for Connor."

But sadly imo not for his friends. Yes I get why he felt the need to do it, but it was partially a selfish act in that Angel (who imo has always been the bigger picture guy) just did what he wanted without hesitation or thinking how it would effect is friends long term.

I never said it was the right thing to do for his friends, I just said I understood why he did it, and I do. He thought that wiping Connor from existence was the right thing to do, so that his friends wouldn't have to live with the pain of knowing that the lives they lead, the life that Angel built for them, pretty much destroyed Connor's life. Wesley was at least partly to blame for Connor ending up in Quor'Toth. By erasing Connor from Wesley's memory, that guilt goes with it. And we saw what that guilt did to Wesley when he got his memory back - he buckled under it and it was Illyria that had to drag him out.

I don't know if Angel had the option of having his own memory erased, but I think he would have kept his memories anyway because he thinks he needs to be punished, to feel the pain of his actions.

I can see why some people could see it as a selfish act, at least partly, but I don't really agree with that.

 

[Silverspike]

But basically however nobel his intentions may have been, he was placing his wants and needs over those of his friends. He wasn't allowing them any free will/say in the matter.

As I said I can see where he was coming from, even If I don't agree with it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And we saw what that guilt did to Wesley when he got his memory back - he buckled under it and it was Illyria that had to drag him out.

And that's another reason why I always thought he was underrated. You actually could 'see' the weight of the memories on him. His facial expressions and posture conveyed more than words ever could. At least as I remember it.

 

[thetopher]

I know you're my father... I get what you did. You know... I'm grateful.
Come on. You drop by for a cup of coffee, and the world's not ending? Please.
Connor to Angel (Not Fade Away)

That, to me, shows that Angel did the right thing for Connor- he saved his boy's soul because Angel felt like he had failed him as a father. So yeah, I think what Angel did was right. Right for Connor, right for those people that Connor was going to kill in the store, for Angel himself it was the only thing he thought he could do because of the guilt.
He felt that he couldn't be there for his son when his son needed him, he thought that he didn't try hard enough to reach him when he was taken, or protect him when Connor came back.

By the time Angel made his deal everybody else had already decided to work for W&H, so he wasn't influencing their decisions or anything. An when they all got their memories returned to them not one of them called Angel out on his actions.
In fact Wesley became far worse because he had to deal with those memories on top of everything else.

I also don't see Angel breezily making this decision (as his critics so like to claim), it weighs on him all through S5- its a burden he has to bear alone. He gave up his son and, as far as he's concerned, competely cut Connor out of his like.

 

[bespangeled]

But basically however nobel his intentions may have been, he was placing his wants and needs over those of his friends. He wasn't allowing them any free will/say in the matter.

As I said I can see where he was coming from, even If I don't agree with it.

That's kind of where I am. I can see what he did and parts of why he did it - I have children and I came damn close to losing one, and I quit everything in my life to just keep her alive. So, yeah - I really understand.

But I still don't see why he had to wipe the memories of his friends. I don't agree that it would hurt them. I think it would reassure them, and if Angel told them not to have anything to do with Connor there isn't anyone who I see as disobeying. I can see hiding it from the bad guys, but it's the bad guys who set up the deal so they know all about it. Coming clean to his friends would have done so much to keep them a cohesive unit, but holding that secret was part of why they grew to mistrust Angel.

Also, if W&H can take away memories, why not just have them remove the unhappy memories that Connor had? Or mute them so that he is no longer in that much pain. Let him keep his core self but give him happier memories woven in, more emphasis on the good time as well. He could go to college and live there. Angel could visit occasionally. By doing this Connor could move away from his past, and have the knowledge of how strong he is, what he is able to survive. 

"On that front, I get it. It wasn't ethical, but it was the right thing to do for Connor."

But sadly imo not for his friends. Yes I get why he felt the need to do it, but it was partially a selfish act in that Angel (who imo has always been the bigger picture guy) just did what he wanted without hesitation or thinking how it would effect is friends long term.

I don't know how much it was for Connor - and how much it was for Angel. I have no doubt at all that Angel was completely certain that he was doing the right thing. But he traded the memories of his friends, in essence violated them without their knowledge. And that was in part to save himself from the pain of losing Connor, and of dealing with the reality of how things had actually happened. Yes, he kept the memories, but he also made sure that the memories had no real power - Connor was be safe and happy.

I know the pain of losing a child - my nephew died a few days after his 11th birthday. It's brutal but it's reality. Would I do anything to have him back - not anything, no. Because taking away other lives (three years of memories - 4 people - 12 years in all) is wrong on both a moral level and a practical level. I would trade my life for his, and I suspect anyone in the family feels the same, but that is our choice to make. 
thetopher - did they all get their memories back? I saw no sign that anyone but Wesley did. And yes, getting the memories back was hard on him because he was the one who set the entire process in motion.

 

[Blaze]

y the time Angel made his deal everybody else had already decided to work for W&H, so he wasn't influencing their decisions or anything. An when they all got their memories returned to them not one of them called Angel out on his actions.
In fact Wesley became far worse because he had to deal with those memories on top of everything else.

I agree that it was right for Connor. But is it really fair for Angel to make a decision for someone else (who isn't his son). No matter whether or not they call him out, or whether or no the gang is better of this way, shouldn't that be their decision to make. If someone erased a huge part of the last 2-3 years of your life, no matter how painful, wouldn't you want to have a say in it?

 

[janas]

I agree that it's ethically questionable, but I'm missing the part where Angel acts as selfish. What has he gained from this story? A son who will live in another family and take care of him as if it was their son? A son, the only one he will ever have even if he lived a thousand years, who will never even know Angel existed?
Where is the selfish act here? Angel has lost everything, he lost his freedom, why to work for his worst enemy is just that. Lose freedom, and it is no wonder that in the fifth season the main theme was the loss of hope.

So I am absolutely with him, and sorry if I can't see Wesley as a victim. Who is the cause of his ill cry himself or "As you make your bed, so you must lie in it"
Sorry I don't know well the American proverbs.

 

[white avenger]

No matter how the act might be justified, no matter how we can sympathize with his motives, no matter how we can say that the greater good had been served, yes, what Angel did was wrong, and no amount of, "Yes, but when it was all over, it all worked out for the best," can change that fact. He literally stole more than two tears' worth of memories from people who trusted him so much that they put their lives on the line for him almost every time they set foot outside the Hyperion Hotel, and replaced those memories with lies.

I would have been somewhat less critical of Angel's actions if he had only altered Connor's memories, given him a new life somewhere away from Angel and all the badness that seems to follow him wherever he goes. That would make some kind of sense. Changing everyone else's memories was not only unjustifiable, it was totally unnecessary, and a clear statement that he couldn't trust them with something as important to him as his son's health and wellbeing.

Did I mention that I thought that Angel's actions in this instance were wrong?

 

[Blaze]

Where is the selfish act here?

I wouldn't personally call it selfish, because the reasoning behind the act might have been the furthest thing possible from selfishness . But in the end Angel didn't think about Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Lorne. He completely disregarded that those people might have wanted to keep their lives as they were. And that is a selfish thing to do. If someone held the decision to erase my worst mistake that I have made, I would not want that person to make that decision without my consent. Because in the end, as much as those were my mistake, I want to keep the life that I have made for myself, with the good and the bad. This affected Angel most, but it affected the others too, and they should have been involved.

So I am absolutely with him, and sorry if I can't see Wesley as a victim. Who is the cause of his ill cry himself or "As you make your bed, so you must lie in it"

Wesley might have caused his own problems, might have influence the way Connor turned out. But truth is, even if he made bad decision, he is the owner of said decision. People cannot, should not take that away from him.

 

[janas]

@Blaze, But the fact is that everyone seems to ignore the fact that Angel has to repair the damage created by other people. But only he, once again, has to make difficult choices, and I don't think that at point he had other choices. Sure, he could let die Connor and thus safeguard the memories of his friends, but it wouldn't be fair. On the other hand, when Wesley breaks the Orlon Window understands what Angel did. Those memories were created not to hide the truth but to endure it.

 

[Taake]

Yes, it was wrong. Of course it was wrong.

There are plenty of arguments for it like - it was for Connor, the memories were a burden or W&H wouldn't give him time to think it over and he had to make the decision on the spot... whatever, at the end of the day he did wrong by his friends and Angel knows it and did it anyway. He did it for his son and yes, it was a selfish act because he never talked it over with his friends to get their perspective or willingness on the matter, and it's an act I completely understand. His child was utterly broken, there was little to no hope for Connor at this point and I can see why he would make that choice. You do what you can to save your child.

Doesn't make it right. It just is what it is.

Though honestly, I'll never really understand why his friends' memories had to be wiped. It seemed like the writers were just trying to erase Connor entirely, to not have him brought up, and just start the show over without him being an issue. Because really, wouldn't it have been enough to wipe only Connor? I think Angel's friends could have been trusted to understand the circumstances.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Yes, it was wrong. Of course it was wrong.

I dont think it is as easy an answer as yes it's wrong. That kind of thinking was best left for the Buffy show. To me, Angel was always about the cost of things. Theoretically to wipe the memories could be considered wrong, but look at all of the good that it did. It allowed people to heal in ways they could have never healed before.

I think in Angels memory wiping thing it is his finally understanding that Jasmine was right, and a few people being sacrificed for world peace was a small thing. Wiping his friends memories to remove such burdens and pain from their lives can not simply be labeled 'wrong' it just depends on how you look at the situation. He gave them a better life. Moreoever, if it was 'wrong' he never got backlash from it. Everyone involved realized, at least on a subconscious level, it was the right thing to do. 

Though honestly, I'll never really understand why his friends' memories had to be wiped. It seemed like the writers were just trying to erase Connor entirely, to not have him brought up, and just start the show over without him being an issue

They had to have an excuse for another season... that was a good excuse. There was too much damage done NOT to find a quick fix to continue the show. The death of Jasmine should have been the series end.

 

[Taake]

I dont think it is as easy an answer as yes it's wrong. That kind of thinking was best left for the Buffy show. To me, Angel was always about the cost of things. Theoretically to wipe the memories could be considered wrong, but look at all of the good that it did. It allowed people to heal in ways they could have never healed before.

I think in Angels memory wiping thing it is his finally understanding that Jasmine was right, and a few people being sacrificed for world peace was a small thing. Wiping his friends memories to remove such burdens and pain from their lives can not simply be labeled 'wrong' it just depends on how you look at the situation. He gave them a better life. Moreoever, if it was 'wrong' he never got backlash from it. Everyone involved realized, at least on a subconscious level, it was the right thing to do.

You are of course right about Ats being much about the cost of things etc. It's a very good point, so is the thing about Angel understanding Jasmine.

However... 'giving them a better life' is relative. And the reason he never got a backlash from it was (well show being pressed for time is one) but also that his friends all cared about Connor so they understood that he did what he did, but before they know why - Wesley for one is quite upset about it and I'm sure the others would have been as well.

Also it is still wrong for Angel to decide what constitutes a better life for his friends. He wiped away burdens, but he wiped away their burdens... which was his whole gripe with Jasmine for that matter. That she took away free will. Meaning Angel knows that his friends "better lives" mean next nothing because they had no will in the matter. He decided that this was an acceptable cost, and clearly - later on - his friends agreed. But that doesn't make the action on its own right.That just makes him lucky.

They had to have an excuse for another season... that was a good excuse. There was too much damage done NOT to find a quick fix to continue the show. The death of Jasmine should have been the series end.

Haha yes, you think that but not all of us do 😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

but before they know why - Wesley for one is quite upset about it and I'm sure the others would have been as well.

But he wasn't after

which was his whole gripe with Jasmine for that matter. That she took away free will.

I dont see how Jasmine took away free will. People still made choices. I suppose it would hinge on how you define free will. I dont see where what Jasmine did was that bad.

Meaning Angel knows that his friends "better lives" mean nothing because they had no will in the matter.

But I disagree. Better lives mean everything. Does the cost matter? That is to debate. At what length do we go to make our lives better. Furthermore, I know people say you can't compare it to what he did with Buffy but, why not? He took the pain and angst that Buffy would have had after their one day away. He gave her back her life AGAIN, for the second time. I do not see them as being dissimilar. And if one was ok, then surely the other must have been. 

Haha yes, you think that but not all of us do 😉

I am currently on a look out for a spell to change that.

 

[Taake]

But he wasn't after


But I disagree. Better lives mean everything. Does the cost matter? That is to debate. At what length do we go to make our lives better. Furthermore, I know people say you can't compare it to what he did with Buffy but, why not? He took the pain and angst that Buffy would have had after their one day away. He gave her back her life AGAIN, for the second time. I do not see them as being dissimilar. And if one was ok, then surely the other must have been.

Haha, disagree on everything. What a better life is is debatable for one. For example Wesley wasn't upset with Angel after, probably because he was busy dealing with his own new/old memories and the emotions of those BUT I personally, in the long run, think he was happier and able to have a better life for having them. Removing someone's memories, even if it's mostly just painful ones, doesn't mean you're making them better. All it means is that you're making their lives different from what they could have been. I'll agree to the fact that removing those memories could possibly give them a better chance at having happier lives, but there's no guarantee for that to happen.

(Willow could argue that she was giving Tara a better life by wiping her mind... )

Also I don't think either was okay. I never supported the mind-wipe after IWRY, I get why it was necessary for the characters, much like the Connor wipe, but I don't think that Angel was right in either case.