Women partially responsible for sexual harassment

[Taake]

Women are sensual temptresses who rob men of their wits and agency.
This is their only power because men continously reduce them to objects of sensuality.
Women are therefore to blame for enticing men, knowingly, with the way they dress and act.
Men are responsbile for leaving them only this option.

Basically, save the planet - go abstinent! If we kill carnal lust, none of this will be an issue...

😛

...I'm reading Tolstoy's The Kreutzer Sonata right now, that's kind of the gist of it. It's not a very sympathetic book, but I think Miss Lansbury might light it!

Also, good thing to keep in mind that this *92* year old women simply might not be as she once was, possibly the beginning of losing her faculties if not full blown on set of dementia...

Let's not make assumptions about her mental state as determined by her age, we don't know her and unless it's a fact that she has dementia it's not right to accuse her of it because her opinion is unpopular.

 

[Professor Walsh]

Poor men. It must be hard to be such powerless slaves of their own lust. (Just ask Spike.)
 
After reading the synopsis of "Gaslight", I want to correct my previous post. It isn't mildly ironic, it is wildly ironic.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Jan Guillou has been grating one me for years. @Taake can you go ask him to shut up? He is a snob that writes books sold at gas stations.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I do get sick of having to explain what I was wearing whenever I talk about incidents of sexual harassment and violence in my life.

That is why I said her point has merit. It is still very much an underlying thought, moreso with an older generation. I think with an older generation it was much more prevalent, because that is how they were brought up to think. The man works, the woman stays at home and if you act and behave in a certain manner you can expect certain results. That's still how many people- more than you would realize- still think today.
 
@Professor Walsh That's what I meant. You can disagree with the statement but understand from whence it comes. You can see her point without having to agree with it.

 

[Professor Walsh]

That is why I said her point has merit. It is still very much an underlying thought, moreso with an older generation. I think with an older generation it was much more prevalent, because that is how they were brought up to think. The man works, the woman stays at home and if you act and behave in a certain manner you can expect certain results. That's still how many people- more than you would realize- still think today.

Right now, we're having a hefty discussion here, as a young, female politician of Vietnamese heritage has had to start being driven to work rather than walking or take public transport. She is being ridiculed for this as she is a politician from our "Green Party", working hard to move people from their fossil cars to public transport. The thing is, she's recieved threats that are beyond what most white, male politicians ever recieve. Yesterday, I had quite a discussion with a white man in his fifties absolutely refusing to see that this is a question of anything except the radical politics she is representing. He said just that: If you act and behave in a certain manner, you must expect certain results.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Right now, we're having a hefty discussion here, as a young, female politician of Vietnamese heritage has had to start being driven to work rather than walking or take public transport. She is being ridiculed for this as she is a politician from our "Green Party", working hard to move people from their fossil cars to public transport. The thing is, she's recieved threats that are beyond what most white, male politicians ever recieve. Yesterday, I had quite a discussion with a white man in his fifties absolutely refusing to see that this is a question of anything except the radical politics she is representing. He said just that: If you act and behave in a certain manner, you must expect certain results.

Wait. I'm a little confused. What came first the ridicules or being driven to work? Was she only ridiculed because of being driven to work or was the ridicules the cause of her being driven to work?

 

[Professor Walsh]

Wait. I'm a little confused. What came first the ridicules or being driven to work? Was she only ridiculed because of being driven to work or was the ridicules the cause of her being driven to work?

Ah, sorry. It was all so clear in my head.
1. The party she represents has managed to negotiate stricter rules regarding the use of cars in the city centre of our capital in general, and diesel cars in particular.
2. This lead to a political shitstorm, fine. It also led to quite a few people people sending her nasty threats. Not fine.
3. The threats led to her now being pretty much forced to go to the office by car, rather than walking or riding her bike as before.
4. She's been ridiuled, big time, for the hypocrisy of being driven to her office in the city centre by car when she is one of the front figures of a political party wanting fewer cars in the city.

 

[TriBel]

 

[Mr Trick]

Another side to this is that the interview appeared in the Telegraph a right leading paper. Lansbury's views are outdated as are some of the politicians I've heard speaking on this who think that woman should be flattened when they are wolf-whistled and just accept it.

 

[Buffy Summers]

That isn't only a rightist politician view.

Oh I love Jo Brand. 🙂

I don't think women are to blame for sexual harassment because of how they dress; BUT I sometimes think that we are taking a step backwards in how we interact with men. We don't hold men accountable for treating us the way we should be. I see women more and more presenting themselves to men in a sexualized manner - I'm not talking about how they dress but how they act with men. They don't expect it of men to treat them as more than a piece of meat. Self-respect is a part of teaching men that sexual harassment and abuse is not okay. You can dress however you want, but people need to stop giving others permission to see them only as how they look on the outside, as a sexual object.

And please, let's keep this discussion friendly.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Oh my God,
what kind of thought is that?
Expecting that men .... Expecting that most men.. ... Expecting that most other men .. .. think that sexual harassment is not okay.
And still there is the theory that God took a rib from Adam to create Eve, but God only did that so that man would have a friend, an equal to live with.
Many men really are dipshts.
So there you are Miss Summers (boss) it is all Gods fault.

 

[nightshade]

Rubbish, she wrote!

There is absolutely no logic to this type of violence. If you cover yourself up, you may be attacked by someone who has a thing for shy and timid women.

I disagree that just because someone chooses to wear clothes that are more modest that they are timid or shy. Often covering up is about respect, not just for themselves but also for those around them.
It's also about taking responsibility for yourself, yes rape is about power, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be aware of what they are doing. Like getting so drunk that they aren't aware of what's going on around them.

 

[thrasherpix]

That is why I said her point has merit.

I'm not seeing a point, only an ignorant statement.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It's also about taking responsibility for yourself... but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be aware of what they are doing. Like getting so drunk that they aren't aware of what's going on around them.

Or making flirtatious overtones and then being offended when they are met in kind.

 

[Professor Walsh]

It's also about taking responsibility for yourself, yes rape is about power, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be aware of what they are doing. Like getting so drunk that they aren't aware of what's going on around them.

While I can think of a multitude of reasons not to get so drunk that one is not aware of what is going on, I still refuse to give even the slightest inch when it comes to arguments that may seem like victim-blaming in that respect. The blame lies with the perpetrator, period.

Or making flirtatious overtones and then being offended when they are met in kind.

But what is "in kind"? And what is actual, conscious flirtatious overtones? Living my life among children and young adults the way I do, I see many little actions that have sexual overtones to an adult whithout the child understanding that.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I disagree that just because someone chooses to wear clothes that are more modest that they are timid or shy.

Sorry. I really did not mean to imply that at all. My point was simply that it is impossible to guess the motivations of a hypothetical attacker. Some men like women who "keep things to the imagination" or "play hard to get". I think one would be wrong to believe that a turtle neck works as some kind of armour.

Often covering up is about respect, not just for themselves but also for those around them.

I've never been very big on respect, neither for myself nor for others. I can be quite loud and insensitive. I often don't care much about people's feelings, but I have a tremendous respect for people's bodily integrity, agency and feeling of safety.

It's also about taking responsibility for yourself, yes rape is about power, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be aware of what they are doing. Like getting so drunk that they aren't aware of what's going on around them.

Sex offenders use all kinds of tactics. Some rape you after you've gotten yourself too drunk to know what is going on. Others will simply spike your drink. Some will use their professional influence to leverage you into doing something you rather would not. Others will simply employ old fashioned violence.

Telling women not to get drunk is good advice, I guess, but the problem with society is not that women engage in risky behaviours and fail to take responsibility. If one woman chooses to take a taxi home from the city, there is still going to be thousands of women walking home drunk, and the number of rapists in the world will remain the same.

 

[Athena]

Or making flirtatious overtones and then being offended when they are met in kind.

What is a "flirtatious overtone" though? What one person thinks of as friendly could be someone else thinking it's flirting (and vice versa). I agree that it's hard to sometimes tell the difference between an overly friendly person and maybe a shy flirty person, but if the other person gets offended when the flirtatious advance is "reciprocated" then it clearly wasn't an intended flirtatious advance. This is when they other party needs to understand the situation and move the hell on.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But what is "in kind"? And what is actual, conscious flirtatious overtones?

Woman: My shoulders are so tense, what I wouldn't pay for a shoulder rub?
Man: What would you pay?
HR department: You have been written up for sexual harassment.

That kind of "in kind" thing?

 

[nightshade]

Woman: My shoulders are so tense, what I wouldn't pay for a shoulder rub?
Man: What would you pay?
HR department: You have been written up for sexual harassment.

That kind of "in kind" thing?

There's a fine line on that though, and it's difficult. I know a guy that I only have to mention that it's a cold day and he'll say something flirty, now I know that there's nothing in it, but someone else may take it as something else.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

now I know that there's nothing in it, but someone else may take it as something else.

But then isn't that the someone else's fault? If they overhear something which neither party in the discussion was offended by and they took offense? I think people get offended and cry foul far too often, especially when they are on lookers to the situation. Part of it is normal discussion between two people. I agree there is a fine line though, but isn't part of interacting and understanding one another learning and knowing where we each draw that line.