Would Angel have done the same for Buffy?

[bespangeled]

For the love of Connor - his badly damaged son - Angel wiped the memories of his friends, took the responsibility of running an evil law firm. He gave his son away, removing all memory of himself, and gave Connor a good life, a family and a whole bunch of good memories.

Okay - let's say Buffy is sucked into a wormhole and returns after being badly damaged (Quartoth) and Angel tries to help but makes things worse. The details aren't important in thias scenario - the outcomer is:

If Buffy had been in the same situation as Connor, would Angel have done the same thing for her?

 

[BuffyElevated]

I think he would have. Angel cared more for Buffy than anyone else in his life except for Connor. I don't think he would have hesitated to do something that would make her forget the pain she had endured there.

 

[Kean]

Well, he already has. Angel gave up perfection with Buffy because he was told his staying alive would result in her death. I can't think of anything Angel wouldn't do to keep those he loves safe.

 

[janas]

Absolutely yes. Not only he would have done everything to make her forget the pain, but Angel has actually did everything to make her forget the joy of something that could have been and was not.

How am I supposed to go on with my life knowing what we had? What we could have had? (IWRY)

 

[bespangeled]

I agree with all of you. In fact, after I posted I really thought it was a given. Of course he would do this for Buffy.

Then I decided the real question is - who else would he do it for? Wesley? Fred? Gunn? Giles?

I love Angel and one thing I love is he's a glutton for punishment - I mean that in the same sense you would use it for an olympic athlete. He piles it on, sometimes tries so hard to fix everone that he burns out.

He tortured Giles - what would he be willing to do to save Giles? He and Wesley are battleworn friends - he's Fred's 'handsome man'.

 

[thetopher]

Angel would've done it for Darla. That is, soulled human Darla from S2- to give her that second chance of a happy normal life.
That's pretty much what 'The Trial' was all about, Angel sacrificing himself for her.

And think Angel would do that for Cordelia as well, from S3 onwards- trying to save his best friend/confidante.

I'd be interested to see if he would do it for Faith, now that they've become so close in the comics.

Angel very much likes to rescue the 'damsel in distress', he's old fashioned that way. 🙂

 

[Kana]

I just wanted to be clear. Are we talking about wiping Buffy's memories of being in a hell dimension and wiping everyone's else's memories of her being in said hell dimension?

I don't imagine he'd wipe all of Buffy's memories of any hardship she's ever been through because how it differs is that Connor was Angel's son and he's a life for whom he feels fully repsonsible. Even Buffy wouldn't make that cut, despite how much he loves her.

Also it would depend on how Buffy deals with it and what faith he had that she could deal with it. Angel was strong enough to heal emotionally after suffering 100 years of torment, he may believe that Buffy could survive emotionally after going through something similar.

The situation with Connor also differs because that's the only life Quortoth was the only life he's ever known and Angel couldn't know if Connor would have any sense of sanity.

 

[janas]

The situation with Connor also differs because that's the only life Quortoth was the only life he's ever known and Angel couldn't know if Connor would have any sense of sanity.

Sure, but the question was *If* Buffy had been in the same situation as Connor...

 

[Buffy Summers]

I don't think he would have, because he would have known Buffy could handle it, and that she would have seen it as a violation. Because she's the Slayer she's in a different positiont than, say, Darla (as someone mentioned above).

🙂

 

[Taake]

I don't know actually, I mean he loves Buffy, obviously, but the love you have for your child... That's what I always loved about that plotline. The no-questions asked kind of way Angel was ready to do anything to give Connor a better life (was it right to re-write other people's history and lives... certainly a question to be taken into account and that's in no way easy to answer) but because it was his son I can understand it.

For Buffy... (or any other loved one) I don't know because it's not the same. At the very least I think there'd be more debating or thinking about the decision before it was made even if he would make it it the end.

 

[Kana]

Sure, but the question was *If* Buffy had been in the same situation as Connor...

This is the point. Buffy is not Angel's daughter, so therefore she's not a life for which he feels completely responsible. Connor spent his entire life in Quortoth, so I'm struggling to see how Buffy would be in exactly the same situation.

I personally think Angel wouldn't have made that sacrifice for many people as it was a huge moral sacrifice. Working for W&H and basically raping the memories of people who trusted him is something that I'd hope he wouldn't do for many people, mabye not even the woman he loves.

For me, the fact that Connor was his son made this a unique situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Angel doesn't make decisions for other people without consulting them, but I'd like to think he'd draw the line somewhere.

I don't think he would have, because he would have known Buffy could handle it, and that she would have seen it as a violation. Because she's the Slayer she's in a different positiont than, say, Darla (as someone mentioned above).

I think I agree. Angel said that Buffy can handle herself and he also said that Connor was life that was completely dependent on him in a way he's never experienced before. I'd like to think that the pull to give Connor the perfect life would be stronger than it would be, even if it were Buffy.

 

[Blaze]

Even in saying if the situations were the same, they can't be. The whole difference is that Connor is his son and Buffy his girlfriend. Connor spent his whole life in Quartoth, Buffy obviously wouldn't have or else she wouldn't have met Angel.

That means Buffy would have been an adult going into this, or at the very least almost an adult. And, she's the slayer, she could have handled herself better than Connor, and she didn't have that father figure Holtz to influence her in there. Even if he was there, she would have understood what had happen, Connor could not.

That makes Buffy fully autonomous and responsible of her own decision through out everything, unlike Connor who as a child is not considered autonomous in that specific circumstance. This comes down to the decision to wipe Connor's memory being acceptable, while wiping Buffy's memory would simply not be his decision to make.

I know that there's this whole IWRY wiping where he does it to save Buffy, but that was only wiping one day and it didn't change Buffy's whole life from what it was 2 days prior, all it did was save her. Wiping her entire memories or Quartoth and changing MANY lives (you're also re-writing all of the Scoobies life at that point) isn't exactly acceptable in my books, and it wouldn't be a life or death situation. I think Angel would understand that. What he did for Connor was very specific to the situation of him being his kid, and Angel being responsible for him. That left Angel with essentially no other choice to do this. With Buffy, he would have plenty of choices.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I think Angel would see that as the same thing Willow did to Tara when she erased memories. A slayer has to deal with hell on a daily basis. Part of what made Buffy who she was is the entire backlog of memories she has. Arbitrarily deleting selected items of memory would cause her to lose the essence of a slayer which is, the ability to handle anything that comes at her.

 

[white avenger]

If there's anyone in the Buffyverse who could do something like that, alter the memories of, not only Buffy, but all of her friends, without permission or even any kind of warning, based strictly on his own judgement, and be considered a brave, caring, self sacrificing hero for doing it, that person is most certainly Angel.

 

[Blaze]

Well, he already has. Angel gave up perfection with Buffy because he was told his staying alive would result in her death. I can't think of anything Angel wouldn't do to keep those he loves safe.

To me, there's a pretty big difference. The decision he took in IWRY affected mainly his own life. He was the one taking the decision to give back his humanity, something that Buffy really shouldn't have a say in, because it was Angel's life. If he wanted to sacrifice being human to save Buffy, he should be allowed to do so. And sure, Buffy's future was affected by it and suffered some consequences, although unknowingly, but at least it didn't change who Buffy was as a person.

But erasing Buffy's entire life(or almost entire seeing the way time goes by in Quartoth) would be a direct violation of her mind and who she is as a person. He might think that he is making her happy, but it's not his decision to make. With Connor, it can at least be debated that as a father it was his decision to make as he was responsible for Connor. But with Buffy, well let's just say that I would be furious is my boyfriend erased the worst of my past just to make me happy. It is the same as erasing who I am as a person, I might be happier without some memories, but those memories shape the person. This is the reason why I believe Angel would do no such thing for anyone other than Connor.

 

[bespangeled]

I think Angel would see that as the same thing Willow did to Tara when she erased memories. A slayer has to deal with hell on a daily basis. Part of what made Buffy who she was is the entire backlog of memories she has. Arbitrarily deleting selected items of memory would cause her to lose the essence of a slayer which is, the ability to handle anything that comes at her.

I wonder if causing her to lose her memories would make her not be the slayer. Yes, she would have the skills but she would have no memory of ever having to face monsters, no training, no backlog as you said.

Deciding to save Buffy might have real consequences for the slayer line. Hmmm

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

He would have done it for Doyle, obviously. Wesley? Gunn?

A human Darla - yes. A vampire Darla - no.

Notice I don't mention Spike - but I tend to think of vampires getting along like Darla riding the only horse out of the burning barn. So no Dru, Spike, Penn or Lawson.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

I don't know actually, I mean he loves Buffy, obviously, but the love you have for your child... That's what I always loved about that plotline. The no-questions asked kind of way Angel was ready to do anything to give Connor a better life (was it right to re-write other people's history and lives... certainly a question to be taken into account and that's in no way easy to answer) but because it was his son I can understand it.

For Buffy... (or any other loved one) I don't know because it's not the same. At the very least I think there'd be more debating or thinking about the decision before it was made even if he would make it it the end.

I can really understand what you mean here - the huge difference between your child and your soulmate. If I would die to save my child, I'd expect my soulmate to chose the same.

---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 PM ----------

Even in saying if the situations were the same, they can't be. The whole difference is that Connor is his son and Buffy his girlfriend. Connor spent his whole life in Quartoth, Buffy obviously wouldn't have or else she wouldn't have met Angel.

That means Buffy would have been an adult going into this, or at the very least almost an adult. And, she's the slayer, she could have handled herself better than Connor, and she didn't have that father figure Holtz to influence her in there. Even if he was there, she would have understood what had happen, Connor could not.

That makes Buffy fully autonomous and responsible of her own decision through out everything, unlike Connor who as a child is not considered autonomous in that specific circumstance. This comes down to the decision to wipe Connor's memory being acceptable, while wiping Buffy's memory would simply not be his decision to make.

I know that there's this whole IWRY wiping where he does it to save Buffy, but that was only wiping one day and it didn't change Buffy's whole life from what it was 2 days prior, all it did was save her. Wiping her entire memories or Quartoth and changing MANY lives (you're also re-writing all of the Scoobies life at that point) isn't exactly acceptable in my books, and it wouldn't be a life or death situation. I think Angel would understand that. What he did for Connor was very specific to the situation of him being his kid, and Angel being responsible for him. That left Angel with essentially no other choice to do this. With Buffy, he would have plenty of choices.

The scenario details are not important - just wondering if Angel would make the same call if Buffy was at risk. But I agree that that scenario was impossible to replicate.

 

[Kean]

To me, there's a pretty big difference. The decision he took in IWRY affected mainly his own life. He was the one taking the decision to give back his humanity, something that Buffy really shouldn't have a say in, because it was Angel's life. If he wanted to sacrifice being human to save Buffy, he should be allowed to do so. And sure, Buffy's future was affected by it and suffered some consequences, although unknowingly, but at least it didn't change who Buffy was as a person.

But erasing Buffy's entire life(or almost entire seeing the way time goes by in Quartoth) would be a direct violation of her mind and who she is as a person. He might think that he is making her happy, but it's not his decision to make. With Connor, it can at least be debated that as a father it was his decision to make as he was responsible for Connor. But with Buffy, well let's just say that I would be furious is my boyfriend erased the worst of my past just to make me happy. It is the same as erasing who I am as a person, I might be happier without some memories, but those memories shape the person. This is the reason why I believe Angel would do no such thing for anyone other than Connor.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this since I posted yesterday morning and I think you're right. When I answered I imagined Buffy in the exact scenario Angel faced with Connor i.e. Buffy strapped with a bomb and threatening to kill herself and others. But like a lot of people have pointed out, that isn't likely to happen with Buffy ever, and she has the agency to make her own call on how she lives her life. Connor was Angel's son and his well being was Angel's responsibility. (Sidenote: I don't think Angel would have made that call for Connor if it was any other sitiuation than the specifc one we got i.e. with the bomb.)

We actually have an example of what Angel would do with Faith. She begged him to kill her and instead he helped her find her way so she could dictate her own, personal recovery in a way that way that was right for her.

 

[white avenger]

Think of it this way. If Angel had known about the conditions surrounding Buffy's resurrection in Season 6, would he have wiped her memories of dying to save Dawn, being "complete, warm, and loved" in heaven, only to be pulled back by her well meaning friends, would he have wiped out everyone's memories of everything that happened in that final battle, except for the fact that Glory was defeated and Dawn was safe? That's basically the same situation as what and why he did what he did for Connor.

And before everyone jumps up and cheers, "YES," just remember how wrong everyone thought that was when Willow offered to do the same thing. We learn from our memories and experiences, even the bad ones, and that knowledge is what makes us the people we are. Taking those things away is stealing or even destroying, a vital part of what makes us, and is totally the opposite of an act of kindness. Kindness is loving and supporting people through those troubled times, helping them put those memories in a proper prospective, and making them know that they have you to depend on, whatever is needed.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But that is honestly comparing apples to oranges. They are two different universes despite what people may say. In Buffy the use of magic always came with a price, the bigger the magic the bigger the price. In Angel, magic was fairly commonplace and it was not used as a means to illustrate the dangers of taking short cuts. So Angel using magic to 'fix' the problem is much different than Willow using it and creating some other, potentially bigger problem, as a result.

 

[white avenger]

But that is honestly comparing apples to oranges. They are two different universes despite what people may say. In Buffy the use of magic always came with a price, the bigger the magic the bigger the price. In Angel, magic was fairly commonplace and it was not used as a means to illustrate the dangers of taking short cuts. So Angel using magic to 'fix' the problem is much different than Willow using it and creating some other, potentially bigger problem, as a result.

Right. Angel is the apple, Willow is the orange. Or is Angel the citrus? No matter. Magic misused is magic misused, whether it is misused by an apple, an orange, a grape, or even a watermelon, not to mention a vampire or a witch. What Angel did to "protect" Connor was an attempt at an easy out, and it backfired, just like most easy outs do. The same thing would have happened if he had attempted it with Buffy. If there is a penalty to be paid for the use of magic, that penalty being the equivalent in severity and power to the original spell, then the person initiating the spell, whoever that person might be, is the one who has to pay that price. The effects of that spell, however, are much more indiscriminate. It hurts everybody.