Would The Powers Lie?

[Zeppo]

A thought popped into my head in the discussion of whether or not Spike want to be human. This may have been discussed before but I don't think I've seen this discussion since I've been a member.

Would the Powers lie to Angel? Specifically I was thinking about IWRY. He had only been back on Earth just shy of year so - assuming we agree the PTB were responsible for bringing him back - he hadn't done much in working for them. Then Buffy comes back into town and a Mohra demon makes him human, thus ending their plans shortly, no?

Angel comes to the Oracles and asks what becomes of Buffy when the "soldiers of darkness" come and they tell him that she dies. So he has to make a choice.

Was it true? Was Buffy's death right around the corner? Or was this a lie to get him back on their track? Eventually this would be an issue, of course. But Buffy was a solo hero on her show for a while without vampire aid. (Though Angel wouldn't be the one to sit back in the Buffy Lair until she returned from patrol, like he said.)

Another thought: was it a test? We never got closure on where the Mohra demon came from, was it's path directed to Angel's office by the Powers to test Angel and Buffy? Or, was it to condition the dog by punishing him right away to try and solidify his focus away from Buffy to concentrate on being a champion?

The Powers could have any agent it wants but (again, assuming they are responsible for bringing him back) they go through a lot of trouble with him so I think he is very special to their cause.

Either way, it makes Angel respect and obey the powers more. Which is to their liking. It really shows their power over him and everything else.

Any other instances where The Powers could've lied to keep Angel where they want him? Or for any other reason?

 

[wickedtiger86]

I don't know of any other instances or reasons but I did want to say that I really wouldn't put it past the powers to lie in order to get what they want.

I'm sure they think in more grand terms, complete big picture type of thinkers. What would how a potential champion is feeling at the moment have to do with the end game? Sort of like that.

 

[Tome]

A thought popped into my head in the discussion of whether or not Spike want to be human. This may have been discussed before but I don't think I've seen this discussion since I've been a member.

Would the Powers lie to Angel? Specifically I was thinking about IWRY. He had only been back on Earth just shy of year so - assuming we agree the PTB were responsible for bringing him back - he hadn't done much in working for them. Then Buffy comes back into town and a Mohra demon makes him human, thus ending their plans shortly, no?

Angel comes to the Oracles and asks what becomes of Buffy when the "soldiers of darkness" come and they tell him that she dies. So he has to make a choice.

Was it true? Was Buffy's death right around the corner? Or was this a lie to get him back on their track? Eventually this would be an issue, of course. But Buffy was a solo hero on her show for a while without vampire aid. (Though Angel wouldn't be the one to sit back in the Buffy Lair until she returned from patrol, like he said.)

Another thought: was it a test? We never got closure on where the Mohra demon came from, was it's path directed to Angel's office by the Powers to test Angel and Buffy? Or, was it to condition the dog by punishing him right away to try and solidify his focus away from Buffy to concentrate on being a champion?

The Powers could have any agent it wants but (again, assuming they are responsible for bringing him back) they go through a lot of trouble with him so I think he is very special to their cause.

Either way, it makes Angel respect and obey the powers more. Which is to their liking. It really shows their power over him and everything else.

Any other instances where The Powers could've lied to keep Angel where they want him? Or for any other reason?

The first part sounds like a really neat explanation... Logically, why would Angel being human suddenly change everything for Buffy? She was always in danger, without him even being there... So the PTB would have just made the 'Buffy will die' part up to force Angel into reversing time. And as you said, if this is what really happened then nothing can tell us if it was them trying to keep their *champion* or to test him... I like this scenario, though. But there is ONE thing... Nobody ever said that it was the PTB who brought Angel back, or who made the snow fall in 'Amends'. I know that's what make the most sense, but W&H needed Angel(or Angelus?) for their upcoming apocalypse and who better than the(probably) kings in hell to break Angel out of it? 😉

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that the Powers lied to Angel in "I Will Remember You" as much as they misled him, and then took advantage of his misconception of the truth. Renouncing his humanity didn't keep Buffy from dying to protect someone who she loved. They did the same thing with Cordy when they tricked her into becoming a Higher Being. The Powers That Be don't lie as much as they state the truth in a manner that accomplishes what they had in mind all along.

The Powers should seriously consider careers in politics, a law practice, or both.

 

[Zeppo]

Nobody ever said that it was the PTB who brought Angel back, or who made the snow fall in 'Amends'. I know that's what make the most sense, but W&H needed Angel(or Angelus?) for their upcoming apocalypse and who better than the(probably) kings in hell to break Angel out of it? 😉

Okay, so coming from a place of creditting W&H, why would the PTB want him around? If W&H brought him back it was to fight on their side, the side of grrrrr. I'm not saying the Powers are saints or are full of good intentions - maybe they are? - but wouldn't supporting Angel be supporting the enemy? Not saying it's wrong but how would their actions fit with this scenario? Or maybe that's what they'd want (for Angel to fight on W&H team!) As I understand it, W&H are not partners with the PTB. At least, I think that's what we are supposed to be believe, anyway. If they are in cahoots then that would've been very, very interesting!

 

[NY State of Mind]

Powers, the people in power, people in charge or whatever always lie or can lie whether it be real life or a TV show........Trust No One!!! mwuhahahahahaha

 

[caritas08]

I don't think that the Powers lied to Angel in "I Will Remember You" as much as they misled him, and then took advantage of his misconception of the truth. Renouncing his humanity didn't keep Buffy from dying to protect someone who she loved. They did the same thing with Cordy when they tricked her into becoming a Higher Being. The Powers That Be don't lie as much as they state the truth in a manner that accomplishes what they had in mind all along.

The Powers should seriously consider careers in politics, a law practice, or both.

I thought it was Jasmine/Skip that tricked Cordy into becoming a Higher Being. Although I think Jasmine/Skip took way too much credit for everything that happened on Angel.

The way the Powers kind of abandon Angel and co. in Seasons 4 and 5 makes me wonder if The Powers weren't one and the same with WR&H and the whole thing was just one big manipulation to getting Angel to their final purpose for him.

Regardless of who is doing all the manipulating, The Powers, Jasmine, WR&H, Twilight, I think the characters still have free will and their personal decisions ultimately shape the Buffyverse no matter who else tries to take credit for it.

 

[Konoe]

I see them as Netrual Good.

They care about the good but to a certain point.

Example: If killing a hand full of people would have stopped the world from ending or causing a lot of trouble later on would be something they'd have to do.

Kill 10 people or the world end which would you choose?

You could say they lied to Angel yes, but if he stayed human who would help the helpless? Angel being human he would't have had his strength or healing abilities to aid him. So then in forth he wouldn't have been able to help countless people.

Angel being human has so many downfalls which also include the Bangel relationshit...if called so.

The powers care about the big picture not just one "persons" happiness or about anybody elses wants.

Angel was the champion and they needed him to be a/the campion or the balance of things would have been to greatly shifted.

The Powers that Be could care less about you! Also this isn't a happily ever after thing since the battle with evil is truely never over...except that one time when they killed Jasmine , but that over now.

 

[Tome]

Okay, so coming from a place of creditting W&H, why would the PTB want him around? If W&H brought him back it was to fight on their side, the side of grrrrr. I'm not saying the Powers are saints or are full of good intentions - maybe they are? - but wouldn't supporting Angel be supporting the enemy? Not saying it's wrong but how would their actions fit with this scenario? Or maybe that's what they'd want (for Angel to fight on W&H team!) As I understand it, W&H are not partners with the PTB. At least, I think that's what we are supposed to be believe, anyway. If they are in cahoots then that would've been very, very interesting!

Well, the PTB could have been trying to get him to THEIR side after finding out W&H had brought him back, 'cause obviously they'd know Angel would want to help them fight evil. So they sent Doyle to him, and after that had the visions go to Cordelia. 🙂 I see it as W&H and the PTB trying in their own way to get Angel/Angelus to fight for them. When we know that Angel was forced(somewhat) to work for W&H in s5, we can say the Senior Partners finally found a way to have him work for them, even if Angel thought he was doing it to change things(which didn't happen). Even when he ended up revolting against them, and destroying The Circle Of The Black Thorn, he lost because they sent L.A to hell... So yea, I think we'll never know WHO exactly got him out of hell, but it's definitely one of those mystical beings.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Well we saw how W&H brought back Darla....difference was they were present themselves at a specific location so I don't know....Angel was brought back in his place in Sunnydale wasn't he? It could be different reasons but I'd still lean towards saying it was the Powers that brought him back.

 

[VisionGirl]

I don't think that the Powers lied to Angel in "I Will Remember You" as much as they misled him, and then took advantage of his misconception of the truth. Renouncing his humanity didn't keep Buffy from dying to protect someone who she loved. They did the same thing with Cordy when they tricked her into becoming a Higher Being. The Powers That Be don't lie as much as they state the truth in a manner that accomplishes what they had in mind all along.

It was Jasmine via Skip who convinced Cordy to become a Higher Being. Now, Jasmine is a former Power, so that gives us a little clue into the way they think.

Okay, so coming from a place of creditting W&H, why would the PTB want him around? If W&H brought him back it was to fight on their side, the side of grrrrr. I'm not saying the Powers are saints or are full of good intentions - maybe they are? - but wouldn't supporting Angel be supporting the enemy? Not saying it's wrong but how would their actions fit with this scenario? Or maybe that's what they'd want (for Angel to fight on W&H team!) As I understand it, W&H are not partners with the PTB. At least, I think that's what we are supposed to be believe, anyway. If they are in cahoots then that would've been very, very interesting!

Neither the PTB nor W&H knew which side Angel would take in the apocalypse, so I think they were both trying to manipulate him for their side.

I agree with whoever said that the PTB consider the very, very big picture.

Regardless of whether Angel's choice saved Buffy or not, he could tell that his being human would endanger her. He would not be able to defend himself in the way he was accustomed to, and she would probably always risk her safety to help/save him. And yes I agree that the PTB manipulated this fact in order to get him to stay a vampire, and to stay in L.A., away from Buffy.

Whether it was the PTB that brought him back, I like to think so. But it could've been W&H or Jasmine for all we know. We have yet to get confirmation of that in canon (right? They didn't reveal something in the IDW comics that I don't know about yet, did they?).

 

[Hale Caesar]

I've only seen the show once (doing a rewatch now), but from what I understood the first time around was, TPB brought back Angel so he could fulfill the Shanshu Prophecy and play his role in the Apocalypse. W&H also knew Angel's role was important, and wanted him on their side when it happened

Now, did TPB lie to Angel about Buffy dying if he stayed human? I think so. Buffy still died. You could say that she was brought back, but the idea of TPB manipulating the Scoobie's actions seems a little ridiculous to me

 

[caritas08]

This is kind of off topic but someone pointed out to me the other day that the only characters in Angel who don't work for WR&H ever are Cordelia and Doyle who both have direct access to the Powers.

 

[Taaroko]

I don't think the Powers lied. I think it's possible that the Mohra demon did something to bring the rest of his buddies to this dimension in the time between when his blood turned Angel human and when Buffy smashed the jewel in his forehead. Otherwise why would he have been boasting about how for every one of his kind slain, ten would rise, which clearly wasn't the case in later episodes of both shows? After the day was reset and Angel killed the Mohra, he never had the chance to do whatever he did for the rest of that day, such as summoning an army, therefore any threat to the lives of Buffy and other characters was neutralized.

And even if that didn't happen, there are a whole host of other ways Angel's being human could have resulted in Buffy's earlier death than when she died in "The Gift". If the Powers didn't find a new champion after Angel turned human, she could have been killed by one of the villains Angel was no longer capable of battling himself. Or she might even have died in childbirth from having his kid. The possibilities are endless. Would Riley have helped Buffy as much if she'd been dating Angel? If not, would she have been able to find out what she needed about Adam in time? Would Spike have still believed he had the remotest chance with Buffy if she was happy and functional with Angel rather than in the mess that was the end of her relationship with Riley, and would he have helped her as much in S5 if not? I tend to think the answer is no in all cases, which would probably have made for a lot more difficulty against all of the villains Riley and/or Spike had a hand in defeating.

Buffy's death any earlier than "The Gift" would have been catastrophic. If the Powers are omniscient enough to have known how that was going to play out (or how it wouldn't if Angel stayed human), then yes, they would have wanted Angel to give up his humanity, but why lie to him when the truth would lead him to the conclusion they want anyway? I think free will was a big part of it. It had to be Angel's choice. Either he would fail the test, be done working for them, and live out his life as a human, or he would pass, give up his humanity, and prove he has what it takes to be their champion. Even if the Powers already knew the outcome, Angel still had to make the choices that got him there in order for him to grow into the warrior they wanted.

I don't think they abandoned Angel in seasons four and five, either. They would have done something to intervene if things weren't happening the way they were meant to. Why send extra help when Angel was capable of defeating Jasmine without it? And it's clear from "You're Welcome" (when they do intervene) that the Powers wanted Angel at Wolfram & Hart so that he could eventually fight and destroy the Circle of the Black Thorn. The second Angel tried to quit W&H, Cordelia woke up, and by the end of the episode, she had passed him the visions and convinced him that the fight was still worth fighting.

Ultimately, I firmly believe that the Powers are the good guys. They teach Angel and his team a lot of hard lessons, yes, and the war they're fighting is a brutal one, but that doesn't mean they're heartless, manipulative liars. I don't take Jasmine's word for it when she says they don't care, and I'm not sure I even take her word for it that she used to be one of them, although if she did, it makes her an excellent Lucifer parallel. (I definitely don't take her and Skip's word for it when they try to claim credit for the events going back at least two seasons.) But contrast what she does with what the Powers do. If intervention is good, then why is she a villain? It's clear to me that too much intervention takes away free will. The Powers do enough to make sure Angel can still find his way forward if he chooses to, but they don't stop him from choosing differently, like when he goes dark in S2. But the second he's back on track, they let him enter Kate's apartment without an invitation. They freed him from hell, something he absolutely couldn't have done without help, but they didn't do it until Buffy proved she could survive (emotionally) without him if she had to, which would be important later. I also think they were what made that floppy disk fall into the crack between desks in "Passion", as well as what nudged Buffy a little when she didn't retrieve it the first time her pencil fell down there in "Becoming". And I think they sent Darla to Connor to try to prevent him from succumbing to Jasmine!Cordy's influence. Darla even tells him that she isn't allowed to tell him everything, because it has to be his choice. The Powers can be subtle, but they are good.

 

[Zeppo]

Buffy's death any earlier than "The Gift" would have been catastrophic. If the Powers are omniscient enough to have known how that was going to play out (or how it wouldn't if Angel stayed human), then yes, they would have wanted Angel to give up his humanity, but why lie to him when the truth would lead him to the conclusion they want anyway?

They may have ended up with a broken warrior had he have decided to stay human, thus no good to them. I could easily see him finding someone to sire him so he can approach the Oracles for a soul, only to have his demon self reject doing so and then he's definately no good to them. Stupid, yes, but he wouldn't be himself as I know he'd take the blame for Buffy's death. By pushing him in this direction, they avoid character damage to Angel and he can carry on their mission.

I think free will was a big part of it. It had to be Angel's choice. Either he would fail the test, be done working for them, and live out his life as a human, or he would pass, give up his humanity, and prove he has what it takes to be their champion. Even if the Powers already knew the outcome, Angel still had to make the choices that got him there in order for him to grow into the warrior they wanted.

Do you think they would manipulate him into making the choice, thus creating an illusion that he came to the conclusion on his own? They seem reluctant at first at his request, maybe it was a front to not give themselves away?

Ultimately, I firmly believe that the Powers are the good guys. They teach Angel and his team a lot of hard lessons, yes, and the war they're fighting is a brutal one, but that doesn't mean they're heartless, manipulative liars. I don't take Jasmine's word for it when she says they don't care, and I'm not sure I even take her word for it that she used to be one of them, although if she did, it makes her an excellent Lucifer parallel. (I definitely don't take her and Skip's word for it when they try to claim credit for the events going back at least two seasons.) But contrast what she does with what the Powers do. If intervention is good, then why is she a villain?

Maybe she's not, she was trying to save billions though at the cost of thousands. That would be fine but like Angel said, the cost was too high. They made a choice she needed to be stopped acting out from their free will. He even tried to ask her to join him but she was too mad to agree to it.

It's clear to me that too much intervention takes away free will. The Powers do enough to make sure Angel can still find his way forward if he chooses to, but they don't stop him from choosing differently, like when he goes dark in S2. But the second he's back on track, they let him enter Kate's apartment without an invitation. They freed him from hell, something he absolutely couldn't have done without help, but they didn't do it until Buffy proved she could survive (emotionally) without him if she had to, which would be important later. I also think they were what made that floppy disk fall into the crack between desks in "Passion", as well as what nudged Buffy a little when she didn't retrieve it the first time her pencil fell down there in "Becoming". And I think they sent Darla to Connor to try to prevent him from succumbing to Jasmine!Cordy's influence. Darla even tells him that she isn't allowed to tell him everything, because it has to be his choice. The Powers can be subtle, but they are good.

Nice points, well put.