Xander = awful
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I think the topic of "this is a little harsh" has been hashed out enough for me not to have to bring it up, hah. But I do have to say that while I don't find Xander awful, he's probably one of my least favorite characters in the 'verse. He tends to be very bigoted and closed-minded about certain things, and that always frustrated me about him. I'm not going to mention the S word (ends with an ike) because I want to have at least one post on here that doesn't, but there were several instances where I found Xander a frustrating, narrow-minded person. That said, he had a lot of good points, too! Always good for a laugh, that Xander Harris.
white avenger
white avenger
Xander's one night stand with Faith wasn't really his fault. She initiated the entire thing, and, remember what he said about teenaged boys thinking about sex just from looking at floor tiles?
Yes, he did leave Anya at the alter, and there is no excuse for that other than that he succumbed to his own fears and doubts, which were no doubt there long before the demon actually tricked him.
And the only good thing that I can say about his not telling Buffy about Willow's plan to re-ensoul Angelus is that it kept her from holding back, only if subconsciously, and losing the fight. On a plus side, it led to one of my favorite Bangel scenes in the entire relationship. It started when Buffy said, "Now, close your eyes..." And, no, I don't say that because of my leanings toward a Spuffy relationship (Well, not entirely), I've just always been a sucker for the old, "I could not love thee near so much, loved I not honor more" theme. If done properly, and it was there, it is one of the most powerful themes in drama. (But an alternative scene, where Angel realizes what Angelus had done, takes the only action that a real hero could take. He kisses Buffy, tells her that he loves her, grabs the sword, yells something inspiring along the lines of, "For England and King Richard!," or "Remember the Alamo!" but, obviously, more appropriate for that particular moment, and jumps. That would have worked just as well, perhaps better, and still left Buffy so broken hearted and disillusioned with the duties of the Slayer that she would have run away)
Yes, he did leave Anya at the alter, and there is no excuse for that other than that he succumbed to his own fears and doubts, which were no doubt there long before the demon actually tricked him.
And the only good thing that I can say about his not telling Buffy about Willow's plan to re-ensoul Angelus is that it kept her from holding back, only if subconsciously, and losing the fight. On a plus side, it led to one of my favorite Bangel scenes in the entire relationship. It started when Buffy said, "Now, close your eyes..." And, no, I don't say that because of my leanings toward a Spuffy relationship (Well, not entirely), I've just always been a sucker for the old, "I could not love thee near so much, loved I not honor more" theme. If done properly, and it was there, it is one of the most powerful themes in drama. (But an alternative scene, where Angel realizes what Angelus had done, takes the only action that a real hero could take. He kisses Buffy, tells her that he loves her, grabs the sword, yells something inspiring along the lines of, "For England and King Richard!," or "Remember the Alamo!" but, obviously, more appropriate for that particular moment, and jumps. That would have worked just as well, perhaps better, and still left Buffy so broken hearted and disillusioned with the duties of the Slayer that she would have run away)
S
sosa lola
Yeah, the whole hating Xander for sleeping with Faith is weird, considering that she was in charge the whole time.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
BuffyElevated
Scooby
I just don't get why people can't forgive Xander for the choices he made. People make excuses for the other characters all the time ("Well, Buffy had killed Angel; she needed time away" or "But Willow was an addict, she had a problem"). Can't people recognize that as hard as it was for them, it was just as hard on Xander but in a different way. He had other stuff going on. Here he was, average Joe, surrounded by all these extraordinary people. We see by his speech in "Potential" that this deeply affected him; I know it had to be majorly frustrating at times to have such a big heart and all you want to do is help but you can't. You can't physically 'cause you're not strong enough and you can't magically 'cause you don't have the power. And then when friends are leaving and going all crazy, who wouldn't get a little touchy? Xander used sarcasm as his defense 'cause that's all he had. He couldn't fight Buffy and he knew it, so he used his words to try to get at her, the same way a LOT of people do when they're pissed off. It doesn't mean we should never forgive them because in the heat of the moment everyone says things they don't mean totally. Which is why I'm able to look past his assholeishness in "Becoming" and "Dead Man's Party".
In "Becoming", Jenny's death at the hands of Angelus, along with Angelus' stalking of Willow, Buffy, and the others was still fresh in Xander's mind. He had seen first hand the type of things Angelus was capable of, and it terrified him, which was why he was so apalled at the idea of wanting to try to restore his soul in the middle of all the apocolypty stuff. Lying about Willow doing the spell, in my opinion, was smart because I agree with AndrewCrossett that Buffy more than likely would have been holding back the entire fight and it could have meant death for her. She didn't need the distraction. Plus, as others have said, it would have been too late anyway because the spell had already been started.
In "Dead Man's Party", Xander had spent an entire summer sick with worry about where his friend was and what had happened to her, and having to step up and take over her job without being qualified to do it. And he had had to see Joyce sit by day after day worrying senselessly about her daughter and torturing herself over her last words before Buffy left. Put yourself in his shoes, and wouldn't you be pissed off if she showed back up one day, and then all of a sudden acted like she wanted to leave again? You'd have a WTF moment, too, I'm sure.
As far as leaving Anya at the altar, can you not have pity for the man who grew up in an abusive home and was terrified that he was going to end up like his drunken, mean, abusive father? He saw what his life was like, and thanks to the demon, his own fears were amplified. People seem to forget that he left Anya to spare her from a life of hardships, because at that point he didn't believe in himself to know it could be different. It's sad for both of them, not just Anya.
I guess I just can't understand why some people can watch the show, knowing the background of all these characters, and not understand more that all of them have reasons for behaving the way they do, and sometimes it might not be good, but why can you forgive some- some who have KILLED- and not others, when their "crimes" were far less disastrous?
In "Becoming", Jenny's death at the hands of Angelus, along with Angelus' stalking of Willow, Buffy, and the others was still fresh in Xander's mind. He had seen first hand the type of things Angelus was capable of, and it terrified him, which was why he was so apalled at the idea of wanting to try to restore his soul in the middle of all the apocolypty stuff. Lying about Willow doing the spell, in my opinion, was smart because I agree with AndrewCrossett that Buffy more than likely would have been holding back the entire fight and it could have meant death for her. She didn't need the distraction. Plus, as others have said, it would have been too late anyway because the spell had already been started.
In "Dead Man's Party", Xander had spent an entire summer sick with worry about where his friend was and what had happened to her, and having to step up and take over her job without being qualified to do it. And he had had to see Joyce sit by day after day worrying senselessly about her daughter and torturing herself over her last words before Buffy left. Put yourself in his shoes, and wouldn't you be pissed off if she showed back up one day, and then all of a sudden acted like she wanted to leave again? You'd have a WTF moment, too, I'm sure.
As far as leaving Anya at the altar, can you not have pity for the man who grew up in an abusive home and was terrified that he was going to end up like his drunken, mean, abusive father? He saw what his life was like, and thanks to the demon, his own fears were amplified. People seem to forget that he left Anya to spare her from a life of hardships, because at that point he didn't believe in himself to know it could be different. It's sad for both of them, not just Anya.
I guess I just can't understand why some people can watch the show, knowing the background of all these characters, and not understand more that all of them have reasons for behaving the way they do, and sometimes it might not be good, but why can you forgive some- some who have KILLED- and not others, when their "crimes" were far less disastrous?
I think it just comes down to who you identify with and who you connect to. I think people are always more understanding of their favorite characters, and they're more willing to think deeply on the actions and feelings of the characters they love (sometimes deeper than the writers!). But if you don't feel the pull of a certain character, you aren't really interested in the why's and how's of it.
(On a completely random, off-topic note, I'm a Gleek too! =D)
Kean
[No message]
BuffyElevated
WOOHOO!! GLEEK KARMA!
Joan the Vampire Slayer
True. I can relate to Spike so I feel the need to defend him, while the fact that for instance, I'm indifferent to Willow makes it easier to judge her.
iDarthRosenberg
Rogue Demon Hunter
xander does nothing BUT make mistakes. it gets old real fast.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
In his defense, he saves the world in 'Grave.'
PrincessBuffy16
Scooby
BuffyElevated
Scooby
People forget the good things Xander has done all too often. It's sad to me. I posted this in another thread a while back:
---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------
Maybe that's it... I am so in love with the series, though, that I can honestly say that there isn't one of the main characters I hate so much I couldn't look past something bad in a storyline that I didn't like. I connect to certain things in all the characters, so I can always empathize with them on why they felt/did certain things. When Giles killed Ben, I understood that he did it to protect them all because without Ben Glory couldn't exist. When Willow killed Warren, I knew it was wrong, but I thought about all the sick masoginystic things he had done and understood why she killed him. When Faith killed the man in the alley, and then had no remorse, it didn't make me hate her... I felt bad for her 'cause she hadn't had the guidance in her life to know what she'd done needed to be punished.
And so on. All the characters have done things at certain points that I wasn't happy with, but I understood why they did. People don't seem to even want to understand why Xander did what he did in certain situations. That is frustrating to me, but I've learned to deal and move on.
---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------
Maybe that's it... I am so in love with the series, though, that I can honestly say that there isn't one of the main characters I hate so much I couldn't look past something bad in a storyline that I didn't like. I connect to certain things in all the characters, so I can always empathize with them on why they felt/did certain things. When Giles killed Ben, I understood that he did it to protect them all because without Ben Glory couldn't exist. When Willow killed Warren, I knew it was wrong, but I thought about all the sick masoginystic things he had done and understood why she killed him. When Faith killed the man in the alley, and then had no remorse, it didn't make me hate her... I felt bad for her 'cause she hadn't had the guidance in her life to know what she'd done needed to be punished.
And so on. All the characters have done things at certain points that I wasn't happy with, but I understood why they did. People don't seem to even want to understand why Xander did what he did in certain situations. That is frustrating to me, but I've learned to deal and move on.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
People forget the good many of the characters have done, true.
iDarthRosenberg
Rogue Demon Hunter
no, not never, obviously. but i think it illustrates my feelings most accurately.
Exactly! When you don't strictly love a character, you kind of have a shallower view. For me it's, "Oh, Xander was funny there," or "Oh, Xander was a real jerk there." But I don't really delve into his psyche to find out why. I also tend to be weird in who I defend, hah. I'll defend Spike over anybody, but I'll defend Buffy as long as she's not up against Spike. I'm more apt to defend Angel, too (as long as it has nothing to do with Spike or Spuffy), and Tara and Anya. Willow's there, but a little farther down. Those are just the characters I personally like better.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Seriously, this is the best and most honest post I have read all day. If I could karma you again I would. I agree with everything you said.
I agree that what he did in 'The Zeppo' was amazing. Xander is not one of my favorites, but he has his moments. Although, his and Buffy's friendship is one of my favorite aspects of the series, and my love for it is one of the main reasons I despise the idea of Bander so much. Xander is Buffy's anchor, her true friend who will always be there for her and not have an 'agenda.' As much as I love her and Spike, he did and will always have agenda, because he is in love with her. But, IMO, Buffy and Xander transcend love, they are real true friends in the deepest sense of the word. I hope they stay that way. At least in my head they do. 🙂
He never once asked for acknowledgment for what he did in 'The Zeppo', and as far as we know, he never told anyone. That was truly selfless and heroic. I don't see how you can argue with that. I know that the Xand Man is one of your personal favorites, and I know what it's like to feel like you always have to defend him. I feel like I do that with Spike all the time.
BuffyElevated
Thanks honey... Your posts in this thread have been amazing!
iDarthRosenberg
Rogue Demon Hunter
haha i wish jack would've turned around and shanked xander. barring the negative effect it would have on the show.
and that whole thing about him being the normal relatable character just makes it worse for me seeing as how i dont like people generally.
and that whole thing about him being the normal relatable character just makes it worse for me seeing as how i dont like people generally.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
lol, not everyone sucks, you know. ;)
BuffyElevated
Scooby
WOW... You hating him doesn't make him a loser; it's your opinion, but it doesn't mean that it's right just because it's yours. Same as just because it's my opinion that he's awesome doesn't make it true for everyone.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
True. I love Spike from the bottom of my little soul, but I can deal when others don' feel the same.
Pryce
Townie
Eh. as far as him wanting to kill angel in becoming part 1. I'll agree he puts it in the worst possible fashion but eh..he has a point. He killed jenny. And well that destroyed giles,and the gang in alot of ways,Why should he bend over backwards so she could have her boyfriend back. Ok,now as we know considering angels in the apocalypse,and hes been apointed humanitys champion but..back then,no one,least of all angel knew that. Did angel himself kill jenny,No. Angelus did. But honestly,if someone killed someone I loved I wouldnt neccessarly want to exchange bff rings and do the snoopy dance. It might be immature,But its human. and in becoming part 2,in my personal belief,angelus would of done it. hes the scourge. hes honestly the only character i legitimately thought could beat buffy. and in a way mentally he did. Angelus is the sort of evil you dont kill,the type you cage up.
Anyway Away from my fanboyish preoccupiation with angelus,back to the point,Buffy needed to be ready to kill him. The worlds in balance. So I think thats why xander did what he did,not out of an urge to get revenge for jenny,although partially thats the reason but more out of an urge to give buffy the strength to do what she might have to do.
Dont get me wrong,xander has his moments of selfishness. And there are moments where I want to hit him(I still hate him breaking up with anya and cheating on cordelia). And of course,the episode where he puts a spell on everywoman in sunnydale accidently. But I think xanders got alot of strengths. Hes the one who keeps a happy face when everyone wont,hes the glue of the scooby gang,and hes also got one nifty eye patch if i say so myself. I couldnt hate xander,I guess cause being a sarcastic geeky sorta guy I relate to him,but i can see why people would. Hes human.
Anyway Away from my fanboyish preoccupiation with angelus,back to the point,Buffy needed to be ready to kill him. The worlds in balance. So I think thats why xander did what he did,not out of an urge to get revenge for jenny,although partially thats the reason but more out of an urge to give buffy the strength to do what she might have to do.
Dont get me wrong,xander has his moments of selfishness. And there are moments where I want to hit him(I still hate him breaking up with anya and cheating on cordelia). And of course,the episode where he puts a spell on everywoman in sunnydale accidently. But I think xanders got alot of strengths. Hes the one who keeps a happy face when everyone wont,hes the glue of the scooby gang,and hes also got one nifty eye patch if i say so myself. I couldnt hate xander,I guess cause being a sarcastic geeky sorta guy I relate to him,but i can see why people would. Hes human.
BuffyElevated
[No message]
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Xander is the 'heart' of the group. He doesn't always make the soundest decisons.
iDarthRosenberg
Rogue Demon Hunter
No, him living in his parents basement forever, failing to go to college(only for the shows purpose, no hate on anyone who didnt actually go to college), being an idiot(lest we forget"4x5 is 30"), still being in love with Buffy throughout the series although she never expressed any interest in him, and the fact that everyone else he went to high school with noticed he was a loser makes him a loser. I never said "oh he's a loser because i hate him" . Fail.
Also i'm fairly certain he himself knows he's a loser.
Also i'm fairly certain he himself knows he's a loser.
Pryce
Townie
Besides the fact that he helps save the world 7 times once alone ,is pretty much the equviliant of sgt fury with an army of slayers and has attracted about every girl in the show at some point in time. He is totally a loser.
GrrArghx
No touching my clipboard!
I fail to see how any of that makes him a loser. Even though Xander lived with his parents, he had many jobs unlike most of the other characters on the show. He didn't go to college, big deal. Being an idiot? He couldn't be further from an "idiot." Saving the world seven times does not translate into idiot. Being in love does not make you an idiot either. And as for the "everyone in high school noticing him as a loser" thing. They thought Willow and Buffy were losers too, but were they? No.
BuffyElevated
AMEN.... great post!
iDarthRosenberg
Rogue Demon Hunter
Hey, Faith says it herself she's a loser magnet.
Also, earlier I said season 8 aside.
And If girls are around you enough they're bound to be attracted to you especially since he's the only one really available. Unless you can imagine them all making out with Giles.
---------- Post added at 02:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 AM ----------
Nah, willow was a "nerd", buffy was a "freak" also that whole class protector award kinda negates that theory. As for saving the world 7 times whoopdy-do. You can't just have completely useless characters on a show, it'd be...well, useless. Him having a job was basically just something for him to do since everyone else was actually doing something worthwhile, and with this job why didn't he ever take it upon himself to move out. And as for being in love you missed the part where it was with someone who would never love him back so he should get over it.
Also, earlier I said season 8 aside.
And If girls are around you enough they're bound to be attracted to you especially since he's the only one really available. Unless you can imagine them all making out with Giles.
---------- Post added at 02:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 AM ----------
Nah, willow was a "nerd", buffy was a "freak" also that whole class protector award kinda negates that theory. As for saving the world 7 times whoopdy-do. You can't just have completely useless characters on a show, it'd be...well, useless. Him having a job was basically just something for him to do since everyone else was actually doing something worthwhile, and with this job why didn't he ever take it upon himself to move out. And as for being in love you missed the part where it was with someone who would never love him back so he should get over it.
GrrArghx
No touching my clipboard!
Cordelia, being practically the poster kid for all of the "non-losers" at SunnyD High, referred to all three of them as losers many times. & whoopdy-do? lol There would be no show without Xander. He saved Buffy at the end of Season 1. If he hadn't -- no more world. He saved Willow at the end of Season 6. If he hadn't - no more world. And so on and so forth. It's not like he just happened to be there during those moments. & with a show that has so much going on, who really cares where Xander is living? He did move out, into an apartment with Anya.
And, no I didn't miss the part where he was in love with Buffy. I very much knew this. He needs to "get over it"? It's not that simple when you love somebody.
Pryce
Townie
That would of been a better show if for no decernable reason without changing anything about giles that girls pants would literally drop when they met him,and theyd start convulsing violently and he'd be the ultimate ladies man in a stuffy sweater. c'mon dont act like that isnt a good idea. it'd also possibly be under investigation by chris hansen considering the age of the slayers in season 7. but hey. you take the good with the bad.