Your Opinion on Homosexuality.

[Chosen Enemy]

Lol and you believe her belief is wrong so by your own point of view you're being disrespectful to her. Just sayin'.
I don't know a single thing about her so I have no idea if she's a judgmental bitka or not. It's not the impression that I got. I think most people in the world judge people that are different from them to a certain extent. I was just in another thread about polyamory I have my own opinions on it because it's different. I still respect the people who do it. And if it makes them happy then I even support it even though it clashes with my own beliefs and opinions. Kinda like the thing she said about some people in the church who support the repeal of DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL, and gay marriage.

We as gay people are just plain stupid if we really expect complete and total understanding and support. And why do we even deserve it? Why does my sexuality trump her faith? It doesn't. She's entitled to her world view just as anyone else. And she's entitled to express it, even if it ruffles some feathers. We're becoming far too sensitive of a society.

I'm saying it's hard to respect someone who doesn't respect.
I'm not saying she's a bad person or anything. But believing that someone will go to hell because of something he can't control, didn't choose and especially don't hurt anybody... that's beyond an opinion. And I find IT wrong and disrespectful.
Sadly, those opinions will forever remain, and that doesn't justify it. There is a difference between voicing an opinion and thinking someone is doing something wrong therefore will go to hell, when it's really not the case. How is it someone else's business? Do gay people even come to someone's house and start saying: "this cross is just wrong, take it down"? This cross doesn't hurt nobody. It's their choice to put it there because they believe it's the right way. And that's okay. But why get into a gay person's house and say: "it's wrong, stop doing that!" ? It's just like that.

 

[The Unspoken]

Sure, I'll take discrimination. Or anti-gay, anti-homosexual. Hell, I'll take "bigotry" if you're offering that one up. But phobe? Not so much.


(The following is not directed at you, its for whoever wants to jump on the bandwagon of people who disagree with me...)

...By the way, the definition of bigot includes hatred. There are SO many people who believe in God, go to church, etc who do not hate gay people. Don't be so ignorant. You know what? I'll take all the negative rep people want to dish out to me here. I dont hate gay people. I was raised to believe that what they are doing is wrong just like many of you were raised to believe what they're doing is okay. You have your opinion and I have mine. And, if you look at the world around us, I'm not the only one that shares that belief. Just because other people support my belief, it doesnt make it right to you. Well, just because other people support your belief, that doesnt make it right to me. Again (just in case you missed it) I dont hate gay people. I have gay friends, here and in planet reality. Objecting to a part of who they are does not make me a bad person. It's no different than someone who doesnt like when their friend smokes or how they raise their children. We're going to disagree. I dont want you to "burn in hell" or whatever people think Christians believe. There's one small (but vocal) group of fundamentalist who give every single other Christian a bad image. To automatically assume that becuase a person is religious, they are a "bad person" is beyond idiotic. You're doing to them exactly what you're whining about them doing.

---------- Post added at 07:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 AM ----------

Also, while I'm still on my box, I'd like to point out that there are people who think homosexuality is a sin but still support gay marriage and a person's right to join the military.

Uhm...there is nothing wrong with believing homosexuality is wrong. The problem is that the alleged wrongness of homosexuality is used to deny gay people equal rights. Even if you consider homosexuality to be wrong, someone's 'gayness' isn't going to affect or hurt you in any way, so there's no reason to deny that person equal rights. (And by 'you' I just mean people in general.)

 

[Goby]

We as gay people are just plain stupid if we really expect complete and total understanding and support. And why do we even deserve it? Why does my sexuality trump her faith? It doesn't. She's entitled to her world view just as anyone else. And she's entitled to express it, even if it ruffles some feathers. We're becoming far too sensitive of a society.

Your homosexuality doesn't affect me one bit.

Forgive me for saying this, and I hope nobody is offended, but it really has to be said....

Historically Christians kill, torture, and hurt people who do not follow their way. It has happened since about 300 AD, and hasn't stopped. In fact, they'll kill each other even if their belief is Christian, but slightly different (Northern Ireland, Croatia & Serbia). I will go further (and possible offend more) by saying the God of the Old Testament taught this behavior. And when God gets mad, he gets mad!!! His death toll in the Bible is somewhere between 2,500,000 and 25,000,000. (In case you were wondering, Satan killed 10)

The dislike of homosexuality I had as a kid (because it was gross and weird) is quite different than the hatred exhibited by many Christians.

BTW, I live is a very rural town. It is overwhelmingly Christian. I suffer from a "condition" that is about as bad as homosexuality... I am a Buddhist. Several kids have told my 9 year old son that he is going to hell. That's not very Christian of them (or is it?).

Until the day a gay army tells me I have convert to homosexuality, I think your sexuality trumps her religion.

 

[theroyalgoat]

I'm saying it's hard to respect someone who doesn't respect.
I'm not saying she's a bad person or anything. But believing that someone will go to hell because of something he can't control, didn't choose and especially don't hurt anybody... that's beyond an opinion. And I find IT wrong and disrespectful.

It sounds horrible when you put it like that, but it's really not that simple. From a Christian point of view gay people can just as easily get into heaven as anyone else. You just have to repent and turn away from the sin. One key themes throughout the New Testiment is to spread the knowlege and to help people. I don't see it as a comdenation when it's said to me (unless it's obviously the intent) instead as a Christian myself I see it for what it usually is, concern. Someone trying to help another person. And that just pisses a lot of people off even more, but I really do believe it does come from a good place.

Sadly, those opinions will forever remain, and that doesn't justify it. There is a difference between voicing an opinion and thinking someone is doing something wrong therefore will go to hell, when it's really not the case. How is it someone else's business? Do gay people even come to someone's house and start saying: "this cross is just wrong, take it down"? This cross doesn't hurt nobody. It's their choice to put it there because they believe it's the right way. And that's okay. But why get into a gay person's house and say: "it's wrong, stop doing that!" ? It's just like that.

As far as what you said about gay people and the cross I literally just laughed. I've seen a lot of gay people say absolutely vicious things to Christians, sometimes with no provocation at all. Hell a lot of times when my gays friends find out that I'm a Christian, I'll get harrassed about it and I'm one of them. Besides the general jerkness from them, even my more open-minded friends have made a point to try to force their version of logic or even in two cases their own little agnostic type religion that they pretty much came up with themselves. All of which is Blasphemy and highly offense. There's also this forum I used to go to that's almost exclusively gay men and I actually stopped going to it because there was just so much intolorance and hate towards Christians and Muslims. It most definately happens. Gay people aren't all bright eye'd sweethearts. We have plenty of unbelievable dickheads just like every other group of people.

 

[Harley]

Historically Christians kill, torture, and hurt people who do not follow their way...

But you can't (or shouldn't) lump every Christian into a group, just like not all gays can be lumped together. Not all blacks can be lumped together. Not all feminists can be lumped together. You can't take the actions of some and pass judgement on all.

---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

I'm saying it's hard to respect someone who doesn't respect.
I'm not saying she's a bad person or anything. But believing that someone will go to hell because of something he can't control, didn't choose and especially don't hurt anybody... that's beyond an opinion. And I find IT wrong and disrespectful.

I dont believe someone will go to hell just because they're gay. Unless you werent meaning me...

 

[Taake]

There's one small (but vocal) group of fundamentalist who give every single other Christian a bad image. To automatically assume that becuase a person is religious, they are a "bad person" is beyond idiotic. You're doing to them exactly what you're whining about them doing.

Very true, I found your post very respectful and I say kudos for standing up for your opininon, unpopular though it may be.

Why does my sexuality trump her faith? It doesn't. She's entitled to her world view just as anyone else. And she's entitled to express it, even if it ruffles some feathers. We're becoming far too sensitive of a society.

You make a very good point indeed!

How is it someone else's business? Do gay people even come to someone's house and start saying: "this cross is just wrong, take it down"? This cross doesn't hurt nobody. It's their choice to put it there because they believe it's the right way. And that's okay. But why get into a gay person's house and say: "it's wrong, stop doing that!" ? It's just like that.

Honestly, gay people may not do this but I find religious conflict is a poor example here. "this cross is wrong" ... how any times throughout the history of the world has not that happened? And still happens?

Would I vociferously argue against EntertainUs religious beliefs if I ever got into a discussion about that? Yes I would. Would I venture into "this cross is wrong" themes... perhaps... But I can still accept and understand that we have a difference of opinion there.
Thus I can take that same stance in the matter of homosexuality. Neither of our beliefs make us 'bad people'. It simply makes us different.

Sensitivity goes both ways.

 

[Harley]

Uhm...there is nothing wrong with believing homosexuality is wrong...

I addressed that because a comment was made earlier that if I don't support gays, I'm a "bad person".

 

[Taake]

Historically Christians kill, torture, and hurt people who do not follow their way.

Historically people kill, torture and hurt people who do not follow their way...


I don't disagree with the Christian part but I wouldn't single them out like that.

 

[theroyalgoat]

Your homosexuality doesn't affect me one bit.

Forgive me for saying this, and I hope nobody is offended, but it really has to be said....

Historically Christians kill, torture, and hurt people who do not follow their way. It has happened since about 300 AD, and hasn't stopped. In fact, they'll kill each other even if their belief is Christian, but slightly different (Northern Ireland, Croatia & Serbia). I will go further (and possible offend more) by saying the God of the Old Testament taught this behavior. And when God gets mad, he gets mad!!! His death toll in the Bible is somewhere between 2,500,000 and 25,000,000. (In case you were wondering, Satan killed 10)

The dislike of homosexuality I had as a kid (because it was gross and weird) is quite different than the hatred exhibited by many Christians.

BTW, I live is a very rural town. It is overwhelmingly Christian. I suffer from a "condition" that is about as bad as homosexuality... I am a Buddhist. Several kids have told my 9 year old son that he is going to hell. That's not very Christian of them (or is it?).

Until the day a gay army tells me I have convert to homosexuality, I think your sexuality trumps her religion.

That right there, really is the problem. People base most their opinions on something, based off of some of it members and the more tragic parts of it, while just completely disregarding that fact that all of that is actually a small percentage of the whole. You can make anything and anyone sound horrible by doing that. Racists do the exact same thing everytime they bring up crime in the inner-cities.
I've been a Christian for about 3 1/2 years and I've been completely honest about my sexuality the entire time. And the amount of love and support I've recieved has been amazing. It's difficult, the Bible is fairly clear on it, but it's even more clear that we shouldn't judge or condemn another and people who are truly Christian don't, or at the very least recognize that they are wrong in doing so and try to fight it. It's Christian's calling to spread knowlege and to offer a different way, not to hate.

And as far as my sexuality trumping her faith, I still disagree. Neither have to trump the other. I know all about it. People just need to grow up and be able to handle that some people will not like you for something you can't help. Blacks, women, Jews, Christian, Gays. It's true for every group. They can all rage about it until the end of time and see how far it gets them. Personally, I'd just rather be secure enough in myself to say you have your beliefs and opinions and I have mine and they can both be valid.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

The problem starts when someone says that being gay is a sin. That you shouldn't be gay. Who is to say what sin is?

And the cross thing was an example, an extreme and obviously not from real life, it was metaphorical. And yes, I do think that gay people harassing Christians is wrong too, because that's also disrespectful. As long as everybody does what he wants without judging and harassing and think they sin somehow, that's okay. No one can walk into someone else's home and start making up rules for them. Again, that's metaphorical.

In conclusion, the religion thing is just one example, just one group. I'm not saying all God believers are like that, I wasn't talking specifically. I was talking about any person who disrespect other people who are just like anybody else. To me those things sound a bit recist, for no reason at all. You can be either God believer or just any other defined person, it's just wrong. Doesn't matter who you are, where you come from or what you believe.... If racism is wrong, I see no difference in homophobia.

 

[Flannen]

While I do not share your views EntertainUs, I absolutely support and agree with your posts about not lumping Christians together. I think you make such a good point and one that I know I have given myself. At the end of the day, Christian or not, Buddhist or not, homosexual or not, everyone's beliefs are their own and they come from within themselves. EntertainUs you are clearly not a sheep, you have your own set of views, that despite the heavy criticism you could receive, you presented intelligently and with respect and I respect you in turn for doing so and for having the beliefs that you do even though I do not share them.

And again, Taake, I agree with you. Yes, Christians have, in the past, killed others for not living their life in the same way but to even suggest that happens on the same scale these days is ridiculous. I'm not naive enough to think that there it doesn't happen at all, but considering how many Christians there are in the world, it's a neglible (in terms of pure mathematics here) number that behave in that way. A lot of people in this thread have argued that homosexuals should be seen as individuals and you know what, so do Christians. So does any one of any faith or no faith at all. I'm a Christian and so is EntertainUs and between us alone you can see how diverse our beliefs are, yet by some, we would be lumped together. Can you see how absurd that is?

More on topic, yes, I believe homosexuals should be exactly the same rights as anybody else. I don't really need to expand on why. I have a huge faith and belief in humanity so of course I think that everyone should be equal. The reason I don't actually choose to go into too much detail as to why homosexuals should be treated the same is because I do not wish to words in the mouth of them and assume that they all want it for the same reasons. I wish for homosexuals to be able to live the lives that they wish to, as individuals and do not wish for one second to stand here and act as if I know what it is they want and how they feel.

No one's belief trumps anybody else's. This is one of the reasons there is so much hatred in the world. The second you start to think that your principles are above someone else's is the moment you incite conflict. People differ and they believe in diferent things but it is every human being's right to believe in whatever the heck they choose to and it is not for anyone else to take that away from them. In doing so, you are making them and their beliefs less equal than yours, and isn't equality what we're all in support of here? It isn't what people believe that is the problem, its how people choose to act on it.

 

[theroyalgoat]

Doesn't matter who you are, where you come from or what you believe.... If racism is wrong, I see no difference in homophobia.

There really is no difference. And I think it's wrong and you think it's wrong, but some others think the exact opposite and while we can both believe that we have the best opinion out of the two, that really doesn't make it true. Everyone should be free to believe what they want to, because they're going to do it anyways. The trouble comes in when they express it and someone gets offended. But while that offended person is up arms they're completely discarding that the other person is entitled to express it, even if it's hard for some to hear, because the other alternatives are either one side get's preferential treatment, or neither side can express their opinions.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

There really is no difference. And I think it's wrong and you think it's wrong, but some others think the exact opposite and while we can both believe that we have the best opinion out of the two, that really doesn't make it true. Everyone should be free to believe what they want to, because they're going to do it anyways. The trouble comes in when they express it and someone gets offended. But while that offended person is up arms they're completely discarding that the other person is entitled to express it, even if it's hard for some to hear, because the other alternatives are either one side get's preferential treatment, or neither side can express their opinions.

So we're saying the same thing.
People can believe in whatever they want. As long as it doesn't hurt the other. Gay people don't hurt nobody. While if a person (Christian or not, doesn't matter) says that gays are doing something wrong – that's hurtful! THAT hurts somebody. And here the line is drawn. That's my whole point.

 

[The Unspoken]

There really is no difference. And I think it's wrong and you think it's wrong, but some others think the exact opposite and while we can both believe that we have the best opinion out of the two, that really doesn't make it true. Everyone should be free to believe what they want to, because they're going to do it anyways. The trouble comes in when they express it and someone gets offended. But while that offended person is up arms they're completely discarding that the other person is entitled to express it, even if it's hard for some to hear, because the other alternatives are either one side get's preferential treatment, or neither side can express their opinions.

The problem is that gay people are still denied something as basic as equal rights and discriminated against on a regular basis because some people think homosexuality is wrong. Someone of a different race does have equal rights, even though some people (i.e. racists) think it's wrong. So you can't really compare the two (race and homosexuality).

 

[Taake]

No one's belief trumps anybody else's. This is one of the reasons there is so much hatred in the world. The second you start to think that your principles are above someone else's is the moment you incite conflict. People differ and they believe in diferent things but it is every human being's right to believe in whatever the heck they choose to and it is not for anyone else to take that away from them. In doing so, you are making them and their beliefs less equal than yours, and isn't equality what we're all in support of here? It isn't what people believe that is the problem, its how people choose to act on it.

This right here... I could hug you Flannie, beautifully put and a point that can't be made enough.

It's hard not to think your beliefs trumps somebody elses, for most of us at least, but it is important to remember that they don't. Like I said sensitivity goes both ways but you can only decide what you're going to do, how you're going to act... love and understanding has to start somewhere

 

[Harley]

So we're saying the same thing.
People can believe in whatever they want. As long as it doesn't hurt the other. Gay people don't hurt nobody. While if a person (Christian or not, doesn't matter) says that gays are doing something wrong "“ that's hurtful! THAT hurts somebody. And here the line is drawn. That's my whole point.

It's hurtful to be called a bigot and be told you're a "bad person" too.

 

[The Unspoken]

It's hurtful to be called a bigot and be told you're a "bad person" too.

Hey, at least you aren't denied basic human rights.

 

[Goby]

It's Christian's calling to spread knowlege and to offer a different way, not to hate.

But don't you see that "spreading knowledge" is offensive? Don't you see that knocking on my door and tell me that I'm going to hell if I don't convert is deeply troubling? Can see see that I experience that hatred (albeit without violence) when someone says I'm going to hell, or that I'm an idiot for "praying to an idol"? (BTW, we're have a dialogue right now so you're not offending me. 🙂 )

In California Obama got out the vote by encouraging Latinos to vote. Latinos are overwhelmingly Catholic, which finds homosexuality a sin. As a result, Obama was elected, and Prop 8 passed. Prop 8 is hateful to homosexuals and deprives them of fundamental Constitutional and human rights that others have.

I was an atheist until about age 30. At that time I went on a spiritual quest. I went to the woods in a travel trailer with a ton of books and my dog. For 3 days I did nothing but read (and eat). It was after 3 days that I discovered that Buddhism was my calling.

Here is a little blurb from the Dali Llama. BTW, I am not a Tibetian Buddhist, (I am Mahayana), but Buddhist don't argue amongst themselves and generally agree on most things.


---------------------------------------------------------


"Your holiness, what is the best religion?"

I thought he would say: "Tibetan Buddhism."

The Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes

He answered:
 "The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God. It is the one that makes you a better person."

To get out of my embarrassment with such a wise answer, I asked: "What is it that makes me better?"

He responded:
"Whatever makes you:
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical."
"The religion that will do that for you is the best religion"

I was silent for a moment, marveling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:

"I am not interested, my friend, about your religion or if you are religious or not.

"What really is important to me is your behavior in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.

"Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts."

"The law of action and reaction is not exclusively for physics. It is also of human relations. 
If I act with goodness, I will receive goodness. 
If I act with evil, I will get evil." (NOTE: This is karma. Karma is like the law of gravity--it is a law that cannot be changed. No "god" judges your actions, they are either good or they are not.)

"What our grandparents told us is the pure truth. You will always have what you desire for others. Being happy is not a matter of destiny. It is a matter of options."

Finally he said:
"Take care of your Thoughts because they become Words.
Take care of your Words because they will become Actions.
Take care of your Actions because they will become Habits.
Take care of your Habits because they will form your Character.
Take care of your Character because it will form your Destiny,
and your Destiny will be your Life

"¦ and "¦

"There is no religion higher than the Truth."
--------------------------------------------------------------

Royal Goat, you are a very special person. You have the ability to change many Christians thoughts about homosexuality. You probably already have. I'm sure many Christians who thought homosexuals were sexual deviants have a different position by getting to know you. If Christianity gets you closer to God, you have chosen the right religion.

And perhaps you have changed some homosexuals opinions about Christianity. If homosexuality truly is a sin, that should be between you and God. If Christianity makes you a better person, then you are on the right path.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It's hurtful to be called a bigot and be told you're a "bad person" too.

I wasn't talking about you specifically, I didn't call you a bad person. I just find it hard to respect people who can't respect the other person who does nothing wrong to you. And I just can't agree with your view, because I think that's hurtful, not to me but to people who you call "wrong".

 

[theroyalgoat]

So we're saying the same thing.
People can believe in whatever they want. As long as it does hurt the other. Gay people don't hurt nobody. While if a person (Christian or not, doesn't matter) says that gays are doing something wrong "“ that's hurtful! THAT hurts somebody. And here the line is drawn. That's my whole point.

I never said as long as it doesn't hurt someone. I've said a couple times that people should be allowed to express their opinions even if it does ruffle feather, is offensive, what not.
I wish that people would be a lot kinder to another. But that's not the world we live in and I'm not sure it will ever be. When we start limiting what people can and can't say it doesn't help really help anything. Those feelings are still there and they have a way coming out. If people are bottling up a little bit of resentment and isn't able to express how they feel and deal with the situation I believe it makes it a lot worse.
And beyond that where does it end? Are we just going to have strict rules on what's acceptable and what's not? Comedians everywhere would kill themselves.

I think that rather than fight every indiviual it makes a lot more sense to work on yourself. Become a strong, secure person who really couldn't care less what someone else thinks about him/her.

P.S. People thinking and saying that I am doing wrong doesn't hurt me in the slightest.