Episode Discussion 2.13 "Epitaph Two" - Aired 29/1/10 (FOX-US)

[Flannen]

Who left Paul's imprint for Echo? Topher, right? Adelle said Topher said to tell Echo to start with the chair. Wow! He paid Echo back for removing Paul's love for her.

I thought it was Alpha?! I can't imagine Topher was in a fit state to have anything to do with the chair, nor think about Echo individually, purely because he couldn't think past anything about his own task. I think it's appropriate for Alpha to have done it considering what he did to Paul in the first place. And I thought it was Alpha that Adelle said told her to destroy all the tech starting with the chair?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm going to have to start with this rant - I need to get it off my chest:

What the hell, Joss?! Seriously, I will never forgive for killing Paul off. Ever. I know I'm biased because he was my favourite character but I'm just so angry! He deserved so much more than what he got and quite frankly I think his death was totally unnecessary - all it was there for was to show that Joss likes to kill love. Gah.

I completely agree. Paul is my favorite character too. I wasn't expecting him to be killed off. After all, him and Echo are the protagonists of the show! Yet, some good did come out of this; Tony and Priya ended up together

His death was so quick and shocking, too. Like Anya's death. Blink and it's over. I would have liked to see Echo tell him she loved him before he died. *sigh*

Anyway...Eliza outshone everyone in this episode, she was totally captivating. Echo's breakdown broke my heart and I cried all the way through. Actually, I was crying from the minute she saw Paul go down because I knew that breakdown was coming.

Me, too...

I think I'm kind of peeved with the direction they took Anthony in. I get that he joined the 'tech' cause because he wanted to be able to help win the war and I'm glad he stepped away from it as soon as he realised that war had been won.

Yeah, I'm peeved too, but I'm not surprised. He reminds me of Riley in a sense, like in that the military is where his passion and purpose lies. Anthony wants to help people. The only reason he joined the DH in the first place was because of his PTSD. If that hadn't happened, I doubt he would have quit the military. I'm shocked he would leave his son to fight, but I understand on some level. He just got...lost. His son brought him back to the world.

When I first realised what it was that Alpha had left for Echo, I thought it was so touching, but I'm also thinking about the fact it's rather strange now too, lol. But it made Echo happy so it's good enough for me.

Wait, do you mean Paul's imprint? I was under the impression that Tpher left that for her in order to "pay her back" for erasing Paul's love for her.

I am truly going to miss Dollhouse, but I will also watch it over and over. The finale was by no means the best episode of season two, but the whole show was and always had been more than it was ever given credit for.

Totally agreed! It took me a while to warm up to the show, but now that I'm thoroughly attached to it and sad indeed to see it go. It only got better and better.

That being said, I still don't like Joss Whedon very much at the moment, lol, and he better hope he doesn't see me in the street because I'm going to kick his ass!

lol! I don't think any of us are too happy with him lately.

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

I thought it was Alpha?! I can't imagine Topher was in a fit state to have anything to do with the chair, nor think about Echo individually, purely because he couldn't think past anything about his own task. I think it's appropriate for Alpha to have done it considering what he did to Paul in the first place. And I thought it was Alpha that Adelle said told her to destroy all the tech starting with the chair?

The only reason I thought it was Topher was because Adelle said Topher said that Echo should destroy all the tech stuff in the DH, and start with the chair.

I agree thought that he certainly wasn't in a state to function enough to find the imprint and leave it for Echo...but maybe, he had a lucid moment. I think he really wanted Echo to have Paul's imprint before he left for good.

It just doesn't make much sense as to why Alpha would do it...he did look sad for Echo when he found out that Paul had died but...

EDIT: Ooh, you think it was Alpha Adelle asked to destroy the tech? Well, maybe I need to re-watch the ep...I thought she told Echo to do it, after she hugged her.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------

lol, I figured it was Alpha. I posted above about it. But now I'm not so sure...

I definitely could have heard her wrong!

 

[Flannen]

Ah, see I thought it was Alpha that told Adele to dismantle the tech which is why I assumed it was Alpha who had left it.

I think it's entirely possible it was him. He seems to have changed, or evolved as Echo put it, and it's been ten years since he did what he did to Paul and I just figured that he really wanted to atone for what he had done.

Either way, they both owed her it so whichever one it was, I'm glad, lol.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

two questions

1)if its pauls imprint, is it the one from 10 years ago? does that "essence" of him not know what has gone on since? Just something ive been musing on...

2) why did alpha say he couldn't stay? was he trying to see if he could free himself from all the different personalities? But i wouldn't see himgiving that up, good or bad...

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

...Wow.

Topher's character has really come full-circle, hasn't he? When we were introduced to his character, I would have never thought he would have it in him to sacrifice himself to save humanity. Wow. I don't think that Joss intended with his death to redeem Topher in the eyes of his fans - I think Joss intended to redeem Topher for himself. He had so much guilt over the technology he had created and allowed to let loose, which in turn almost ended humanity, his only respite was death, I suppose.

I totally agree.

Well, leave it to our Joss to kill off my two favorite characters. I should have seen this coming. Perhaps what was more shocking to me then the character deaths though, is the fact that Tony and Priya apparently ended up together. Has Joss broke his unspoken rule regarding 'happy couples'? *gasp*

No! I like to think that he already broke it, and Cordy & Doyle have been together as higher-beings since 2003

Echo...oh, Echo. I cried during her breakdown over Paul. Perhaps Eliza's best work on this show was in that scene. So sad. It's interesting that I felt so much for her character in this scene, considering I've had a hard time connecting to Echo in the past.

I agree. Personally, I think the thing is, Eliza's great at playing characters that aren't too "out-there," which made her an odd choice for this role. I found her to be very good at playing Echo/Caroline, but just passable as say a hostage negotiator or old aristocrat.

It's hard to compare her to Enver's Viktor/Tony, because he seems to shine at embodying various personalities. I found his performance bordering on shocking, because I've never seen any TV actor capable of his range, or even come close. Short of Gary "the Chameleon" Oldman, I don't know of any major celebrity who have that ability.

Nice show, Joss. This is a sad day indeed.

Overall, although it felt a bit rushed, I think the show was concluded nicely.

I enjoyed the show as well, but I'm also glad it ended here.As Joss said, the situation with FOX forced them to crunch all of their best ideas into five episodes, and it made them amazing.

Personally, I think if they had made this into a tight miniseries with "The Attic"-style pacing, it would have been an amazing miniseries as opposed to a decent TV show.

---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

1)if its pauls imprint, is it the one from 10 years ago? does that "essence" of him not know what has gone on since? Just something ive been musing on...

In some ways, the wedge was more "Paul" than Future!Paul. This was Paul as a whole, pre-lobotomy. And you're right, he's missing 10 years of memories, but as Echo's probably been with Paul for the bulk of the 10 years, I'm sure them sharing a brain now will help fill in the blanks.

2) why did alpha say he couldn't stay? was he trying to see if he could free himself from all the different personalities? But i wouldn't see himgiving that up, good or bad...

I believe that Echo mentioned that Alpha's evolution was more about his quest to keep his inner-sociopaths under wraps. She'd certainly know as she has one too.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

No! I like to think that he already broke it, and Cordy & Doyle have been together as higher-beings since 2003

What? Really? Is this in AtF? Ok, I need to read that.

I agree. Personally, I think the thing is, Eliza's great at playing characters that aren't too "out-there," which made her an odd choice for this role. I found her to be very good at playing Echo/Caroline, but just passable as say a hostage negotiator or old aristocrat.

It's hard to compare her to Enver's Viktor/Tony, because he seems to shine at embodying various personalities. I found his performance bordering on shocking, because I've never seen any TV actor capable of his range, or even come close. Short of Gary "the Chameleon" Oldman, I don't know of any major celebrity who have that ability.

Agreed. I'm also totally impressed by Enver. He's definitely one of the most talented actors Joss has ever cast. I sure hope we get to see him in another Jossverse project.

I enjoyed the show as well, but I'm also glad it ended here.As Joss said, the situation with FOX forced them to crunch all of their best ideas into five episodes, and it made them amazing.

Well said.

Personally, I think if they had made this into a tight miniseries with "The Attic"-style pacing, it would have been an amazing miniseries as opposed to a decent TV show.

Yep. That's a good way to look at it.

---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

In some ways, the wedge was more "Paul" than Future!Paul. This was Paul as a whole, pre-lobotomy. And you're right, he's missing 10 years of memories, but as Echo's probably been with Paul for the bulk of the 10 years, I'm sure them sharing a brain now will help fill in the blanks.

Good theory.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

What? Really? Is this in AtF? Ok, I need to read that.

Well, Cordy being a full-fledged High-Being is in AtF, but Doyle doesn't appear out of respect for Glenn. I just personally like to think that Doyle is also a Higher-Being like Cordy .

 

[crimsonsai89]

I

What the hell, Joss?! Seriously, I will never forgive for killing Paul off. Ever. I know I'm biased because he was my favourite character but I'm just so angry! He deserved so much more than what he got and quite frankly I think his death was totally unnecessary - all it was there for was to show that Joss likes to kill love. Gah.

I think it was good that Paul died the way he did. It was quick and horrible and unfair. The way it is in real life. There's no such thing as necessary death. He died cos he was in the middle of a firefight and he wasn't paying good enough attention.

I thought it was a good enough series finale but a ot of it felt rushed and unexplained. I was also really pleased with Eliza's performance as she's been getting a lot of crap since dollhouse first aired and its nifty that in the series finale she got to show what she could do.

Just something that's been irritating me. Didn't Whiskey die in the explosion two weeks ago? If so then how was she in the future?

 

[Flannen]

Just something that's been irritating me. Didn't Whiskey die in the explosion two weeks ago? If so then how was she in the future?

No, Topher got her out. He mentions to Adele that he 'got Saunders' at the end of the episode when they're waiting to see if Echo gets out.

So she dies when we see her at the end of Epitaph One, back as Whiskey.

 

[crimsonsai89]

No, Topher got her out. He mentions to Adele that he 'got Saunders' at the end of the episode when they're waiting to see if Echo gets out.

Oh ya! cant believe I forgot that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think this is my favorite series finale Joss has done.

I actually wouldn't have changed a thing. I loved the idea of the series, but I don't think it was used properly, when I saw Epitaph 1, I thought it was brilliant, but then to go back to where we were at the start of Season 2 kinda ruined it for me.

So Glad they decided to go back for a part two, everything was amazing, the sets looked incredible, the music was perfect, the acting was incredible, I have a new found respect for Eliza she was brilliant in this episode.

I really felt a resolve with this though, and I know there could be allot more, but Im actually ok with that being what we get. The Buffy finale was cool, but no where near as good as this.
And I hated the Angel finale, I know they did it to get the message of 'Never stop fighting', but I always saw that as a giant cop out.

Oh and the one thing I didn't get, but may have missed in E1 Whiskey was waiting for someone (Boyd?) was there any indication of that, which I missed, or was that not addressed, and it was just once she reverted to Whiskey she just kept her boyd memories?

 

[white avenger]

I've always liked this show, but unfortunately somethinh quite often interfered with me watching it regularly. I'll probably buy the DVD sets eventua;;y, just like I have been doing with "Supernatural" for the same reason. I have, today, however, had time to sit down and watch the last 3 episodes on HULU, and I thought that they were really great. I couldn't help but notice, however, that, either I am suffering from some very serious Buffy withdrawal, or Joss has purposely tossed a real heap of Buffy moments into those last 3 episodes, from, obviously, the very idea of an apocalypse to the final scene where all of the people were awakened, similar to all of the Slayers awakening in Chosen. (I even heard the words "potential" and "key" mentioned, but I know that that's reaching.

To me, probably the most powerful and memorable scene in the entire thing was when Caroline finally allowed herself to break down over losing Paul, and I couldn't help but visualize Buffy doing the same thing about Spike. I would really love to corral Joss somewhere and ask him if the things that I saw were intentional on his part, or if I am just imagining the whole thing.

 

[Washburne]

Oh and the one thing I didn't get, but may have missed in E1 Whiskey was waiting for someone (Boyd?) was there any indication of that, which I missed, or was that not addressed, and it was just once she reverted to Whiskey she just kept her boyd memories?

I wondered about that too. Since they didn't decide that Boyd would be the bad guy until season 2 (so much for watching season 1 looking for clues) maybe it was meant to be Boyd and they just skipped it. Or maybe it was Alpha she was waiting for. I really need to watch both Epitaph episodes again and see if I've missed something important.

 

[Flannen]

As far as I'm aware nothing is mentioned. With those two scenes in Epitaph One - Boy telling Claire he'll come back for her, and then Whiskey saying she's waiting for someone, it kind of suggests it's Boyd she's waiting for.

I don't think she's mentioned at all in Epitaph Two, Alpha just says that he cleaned up.

 

[Josh Raven]

Been sitting here for hours, just listening this song over and over again - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKLS3LtDF-o"]Lissie - Everywhere I Go.[/ame]

It's the one that played in the end of the episode.

Wow. I need a hug... :sad25:

Echo's breakdown scene was a big giant "**** you all, silly bitches" to all those Eliza critics out there.

I was hoping for it to solve all the loose ends. You know - Dominic, Whiskey, Boyd. But this was also good. Perhaps even better.

And here I was thinking to myself that the show has lost it's self-reflective quality with the lack of all those meaningful songs... and now we get the ultimate self-reflective moment with a meaningful song, with the lonely Echo, with Paul in her head, going to bed.

That was a powerful ending.

Also, anyone else thought that Adelle looked prettier than ever in this episode?

Topher rules by the way. He's a big damn hero.

Awesome.

 

[Washburne]

As far as I'm aware nothing is mentioned. With those two scenes in Epitaph One - Boy telling Claire he'll come back for her, and then Whiskey saying she's waiting for someone, it kind of suggests it's Boyd she's waiting for.

It does. But it was Claire he told that and it was Whiskey that waited right? Did someone mix their memories together? What happend to her after she was saved from the explosion in The Hollow men? Which inprint did she get and why? Or does it all come down to that Claire knew she had been Whiskey and still was but inprinted with the Dr. Saunders personality? In that case why did she go back to calling herself Whiskey? Too many questions.

 

[Bookkitty]

I know, I am so confused. I need to go back and rewatch at least the last 3 or 4 episodes. So much happened and there were so many loose ends, questions that did not get answered. Plus when I bought season one, I did not watch "epitath 1" because I knew it was not connected to season two and I did not want to be confused or have things ruined in the end. But then I was watching all of season one with my brother because he had only seen one episode in the middle and wanted to see it all. So he and I watched epitath 1 just a few weeks ago. So I got VERY confused lol, I keep mixing up epitath one with things from the last 3 episodes of season two

 

[Kanazaka]

I was a bit underwhelmed by the finale--it just seemed a bit flat to me. However, I did like Topher's hero moment, since it seemed more earned and more appropriate than Spike's similar moment at the end of Buffy. I also liked the interplay between Tony and Priya, and it's nice to know that they still had chemistry ten years into the future.

 

[Frketson]

Great great finale, not as good as angel but a very good episode regardless.

Topher was my favourite character and im glad he died a hero, great progression. One thing that kinda pissed me off was the way that when he went to go activate the bomb, he basically just said bye to adelle, no body else. ANd they didnt even hug, it was just like, ok catchya later... And you'd think after spending years together you'd at least want to say goodbye. I though tit would have made it much more heartfelt and would have amped up the tears.

ALso i thought Eliza was fantastic in her breakdown scene, her best acting moment ever IMO.

finally loved the way it ended, with the shot of her walking to the pod and sleeping one last time, finally free.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Just so I have things clear in my head did Topher just go crazy from all that went on, like we kinda got the start if it when Bennett died, and it just progressed from there?