Abortion

[The Chosen]

Were I woman, which I obviously am not, I don't think I'd ever be able to have an abortion, unless the pregnancy was caused by horrific circumstances or my life was in danger.

With that being said, I do think that, as a male, I'd have an equally hard time casting a ballot in favor of outlawing abortion. I don't think it's morally correct to tell someone what they can or can't do with their own bodies, even if another life may potentially* be growing inside. I agree with previous posters that abortion is a medical decision that is not to be legislated. (*I personally am not sure when I believe life starts, so once I do look into that enough to form a decision my opinion might change! Who knows?)

I also completely empathize with women who do decide to abort. I can't even begin to imagine just how tough of a decision that would have to be.

 

[PassionBecoming]

I don't think people think of abortion as a form of birth control. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think there is a whole lot of people who say "lets not use a condom, I'll get an abortion in a few weeks" - abortion is an option when you become pregnant and aren't ready for it, or aren't ready to give your body over to to a baby for 9 months.

I don't believe many people think like that either, but many think "Well, we'll have sex and if we get pregnant we'll just get an abortion." Similar to "Well, we'll get married without thinking this through, and if it doesn't work we'll just get divorced." That kind of attitude going into anything is just not good.

I also don't think the main reason for sex is reproductive any more, the main reason is pleasure and eventually when the couple is ready it's for reproduction. But contraception is only 99.9% effective and I don't think making abortion illegal to make people deal with something their not ready to deal with is the right thing to do.

People may use it more for pleasure, but that doesn't mean its purpose has changed. If an alien was dropped onto our planet and studied a male and female, they would conclude that our bodies interlock for the purpose of procreation, not pleasure. A very nice side effect is that it feels good, but sex has a main function of procreation. (A parallel: Your mouth is for chewing food and getting energy into your body. A side effect of that is that food tastes good and we enjoy it, but it's main function isn't to allow us to enjoy tasty treats.)

 

[EvilWillow]

I don't think people think of abortion as a form of birth control. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think there is a whole lot of people who say "lets not use a condom, I'll get an abortion in a few weeks" - abortion is an option when you become pregnant and aren't ready for it, or aren't ready to give your body over to to a baby for 9 months.

I also don't think the main reason for sex is reproductive any more, the main reason is pleasure and eventually when the couple is ready it's for reproduction. But contraception is only 99.9% effective and I don't think making abortion illegal to make people deal with something their not ready to deal with is the right thing to do.

No, there are many many women out there that use abortion as a fail safe. I'm not saying they intentionally don't protect themselves during sex just because they have that option. I'm saying they use it as a crutch just in case they don't want to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[Nix]

Personally, I would resort to abortion for health reasons with physical or mental health. If the option to have a child/go through with the pregnancy is damaging or puts life at risk, then its a no thanks from me. I would go ahead with the abortion if in the very very early stages of pregnancy. Just my perspective.

 

[strawberryeve]

Then wouldn't the solution to these problems be to promote better sex education, donations to organizations that provide OB/GYN services to undeveloped countries, and support governments that fight against/don't allow forced marriages, child prostitution, etc.? Not promoting abortion. Abortions don't solve that problem, it simply reacts to a problem in a negative way.

Also, yes, some women die in child birth, but not all. Some people have aneurysms, heart attacks, strokes, and a number of other sudden medical issues that could kill them. Does that mean you remove your brain? Your heart? No. A baby is not an organ that causes problems. There are some women who die in childbirth, but generally it isn't the child's fault. There may have been a pre-existing condition the doctor missed, the woman's body might not be built for it, etc. It doesn't matter - that isn't the child's fault.

Speaking specifically about undeveloped countries, if they don't have quality OB services I highly doubt that abortions are all that safe, either.

Planned Parenthood exists all over the world. They provide sex education OB/GYN services, and abortions. Unfortunately this organization cannot do business because its funding was cut for providing the option for abortion = a medical procedure.

I don't intend to change anyone's mind, I'm using facts to back up my argument and that satisfies me. I think this is a very emotional topic for everyone and I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. Additionally, I want to hear what the opposition or you have to say because it helps me to understand why anyone would justify invading someone's privacy to the point of telling them how to make personal medical decisions.
And now that we've had this difficult discussion, I know what your justification is, so thank you for putting it out there. I don't think this debate will ever go away but it's important we can all keep that dialogue open and not look at each other as "the horrible person who doesn't agree with me on what constitutes murder", etc.

Oh and I NEVER said pregnancy wasn't natural and beautiful 🙂 I think women who are pregnant are like goddesses!

 

[Tome]

Personally what I don't like about abortion is the idea of denying a life. Now I understand that there is a big debate on when exactly you can say a fetus is alive, and this is why I honestly am not sure what to think about the *life* issue. With that said though, when someone asks me if I'm pro-choice or pro-life, I respond with pro-choice, simply because it's up to the woman who's having the baby to decide what she want to do. Not anyone else.

That doesn't mean other people can't give their opinion (namely; the father), but the final decision should always be up to the woman.

Oh and I read most of the posts in this thread, and I agree that people should be responsible (not just the females) and if they DON'T want to have a baby, then to use protection. But then, even that is not a 100% guarantee.

 

[arabella]

It's not okay for me. I don't use birth control pills. I use natural family planning, in which I was educated to know when I can and cannot get pregnant, and abstain during the times I can.

I'm not going to judge someone for using a BC pill that may or may not allow the egg to implant in the uterus. Because at that point, it's a cluster of cells that are dividing over and over. It still potentially a human being, but not yet.


I don't understand the whole "viable" and "non-viable" argument. Yes, the baby is dependent on the mother and would die without her support after a certain number of weeks (25 I believe). But a baby would never be able to live on its own without the mother's help, through adolescence even. So does that mean it's acceptable to suffocate a newborn because it won't be able to live without its mother, and therefore, not really human?

I don't understand why the cluster of cells that still contains all the necessary bits to become a child is different from an equally non-viable cluster of human shaped and partially functional cells.

As far as viability is concerned, no, if a fetus is born after it reaches viability then it no longer requires the mother's body to exist. It is still relatively helpless and needs someone's help to meet it's basic needs but it no longer needs the mother's body in order to sustain organ function. Machines or it's own functionality take over at that point. In my opinion, it would not be okay to suffocate a newborn. A newborn is living on it's own with out it's mother as a host. It's a separate entity at that point in my opinion. Now, would I remove a baby from a machine that was breathing for it if that was what was medically recommended for whatever reason? If I thought it was best, yes. Would the newborn then suffocate? Essentially, yes. It couldn't survive on it's own. That's not murder in my opinion either.

 

[Mr Giles]

So if its the womans decision, and her's only, to have an abortion because thats what she feels is right, is it also the mans decision not to pay child support if she decides to have the baby?
It takes two, and that goes from doing it, to deciding it to looking after it. No picking and choosing.

 

[EvilWillow]

Planned Parenthood exists all over the world. They provide sex education OB/GYN services, and abortions. Unfortunately this organization cannot do business because its funding was cut for providing the option for abortion = a medical procedure.

Its funding was cut due to the fact that it is under investigation for fraud, and attempting to aid the prostitution of minors.

PP does not provide any kind of prenatal care, and they are not non-profit as they claim to be, because they don't provide anything free unless you have medicaid. They don't provide pap smears, or mammograms, they refer you somewhere else.

They do STD testing, abortions, and pregnancy tests, which they DO charge for. There are other places out there that do all of this for free (minus abortion), especially pregnancy centers, which do not pressure you into having an abortion to make money.

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

strawberryeve agrees: all of your statements are completely untrue

Actually they are not, but I invite you to prove me wrong. 🙂

I'm wondering why you would agree with me if you think I am wrong, though..

 

[Flannen]

I'm very much pro-choice. I could go on and refer to many different things that have already been said but I don't think I'll actually be offering much to the discussion by doing that.

Fundamentally, whatever your personal opinions about abortion are, I think it is very important for the choice to make a decision that is right for the individual to be available. As far as I am concerned, humanity has spent hundreds and hundreds of years fighting for the freedom of choice, in every aspect of our lives, and to take this one away would not be a positive thing.

I can see most points for both sides, not all but most, but for me, the choice just has to be there for those who wish to make it.

 

[Professor Walsh]

A man is never going to be in the situation where they have to give over their body for nine months to something they dont want. They dont have to go through the hormones, the labor, the pain. So why should men be voting on whether or not women can have abortions when its not something they themselves ever have to consider?

We're all human. We're all in this together. I think all members of a democracy should have their say if they want to. With that sad, there is no doubt that politically, on the grander scale of things, there is a large element of keeping women under control when we are talking about laws regulating the degree to which women are allowed to control their own reproduction.

I would like to add that since 64-81% of abortions are paid for by public funding (via stats in the first link), I DO have a say in the choice to abort or not and will until all abortions are privately funded. That was a general statement, not directed at miromurr.

Thanks for the links. I'll admit that I only took out time to read the first one. As for your argument, even if it wasn't directed specifically to me, I must say that I have no issues with people stating their arguments in cases like these. I just assume that everyone award me the same right to state my opinions as well.

The truth is when a woman gives birth she is on the verge of death - it wreaks havoc on her body. A man will never be put in that situation and until he does he can't make a fair assesment. In the US last year the maternal mortality rate was 6 in 100k but if you live in say Uganda that goes up to over 500 in 100k. Modern medicine including access to safe abortion is the reason why the mortality rate is so low in the US.

Not true. People so easily forget that a woman's body is designed to give birth. That's the whole point. Sex is scientifically designed for procreation and when you have sex and make a baby, that means your bodies are functioning correctly.

Fertility and babies are not diseases - they are proof that your body is healthy and functioning normally.

Also, you are not always on the verge of death when giving birth. My first child was an insanely difficult birth - it was horrible and painful and lasted a very long time, but my life and his were never in danger. My second baby basically fell out, as I'm guessing the one I am carrying right now will as well. Are pregnancy, labor, and delivery rough on the body? Heck, yes, but they are also what women are designed to do.

I'd say that the reality lies somewhere in the middle here. While it is true that being pregnant and giving birth is part of what the female body is "made for" (I'm putting that in a bracket as I don't really think in terms of intelligent design, but I can't seem to find a better way of putting it in English just now), it is also no doubt that pregnancy and giving birth takes a great toll on the bodies not only of women but on the bodies of a lot of female big mammals. If we look at the world as a whole, there is a high risk connected to child bearing. Your experiences with childbirth are a bit akin to mine, actually, except that during the first birth, my baby's life (or at least his brain's health) was under risk and I ended up with a massive number of stitches and a blood transfusion.

I brought up my point because you said abortion should be an option due to all of the "unwanted" children in the world. There are couples everywhere that would do anything to to adopt a child; it just isn't always attainable.

Actually, there is an abundance of couples wanting to adopt infants or newborns, preferably white. Once the children have a little more baggage "“ if I want to be crass I can say for example after spending the first few years of their life with a mother who neither wanted to care for a little child or is capable of doing it well "“ it is very hard to find adoptive parents.

A miscarriage is something that your body does, and it's sometimes it's called a "spontaneous abortion". This is completely natural and they can't explain why it happens. I know all about these, as I have had one. But it is in no way the same or comparable to having your insides ripped just so you can go out and party without having to get a babysitter.

Do you truly think that that is the motivation most prevalent among women in the world who wants to terminate a pregnancy?

No sweetie. I'm saying some of the birth control pills are abortifacient. But at the implantation stage, the human life is not sentient, and not even an actual baby yet. Which doesn't bother me.

I got a bit curious about this sentiment, wondering where our differences start. When does "life" start "“ when we go from a blastocyst to rudiments of organs?

Sex is not just for reproductive purposes, but that is the main purpose of it. I never said it wasn't okay to enjoy doing it, either. I simply stated that if a woman doesn't want a baby, then she probably should abstain from it because there is no guarantee that she will not get pregnant unless she has a tubal ligation. I was exaggerating a little bit in order to illustrate that women need to be responsible for their actions.

Tubal ligations are not 100% safe, either.

This supposes: that the 30,000 women who died giving birth last year in the United States alone are the only women dying in the world from giving birth. That all women are educated about sex before the age of fertility and therefore know sex leads to pregnancy. It also supposes women always have control over when they have sex and that all marital sex is consensual. It also supposes that abortion is murder. It also supposes that people only have sex to make children.

The truth is if a woman wants an abortion - shes gonna get it whether it's legal or not.

Earlier today (on a Norwegian web page, I'm happy to provide the link if anyone wants it) I read that globally, illegal abortions are the cause of some 13% of women's deaths tied to pregnancies and childbirth. While I am all for making it less costly to adopt children and helping women who want to give up their child for adoption, so that an abortion feels as less of a necessity, the right to choose a safe abortion is one I will fight until my dying day for women all over the world to have. Not because I have much sympathy for the minority for whom an abortion seems so uncomplicated that they don't bother with protecting themselves during casual sex, but because I have an unlimited ocean of sympathy for the Marie Farrars of this world. They still exist, even if it's hard to see from my sheltered little home in what may well be the world's most privileged country.

Then wouldn't the solution to these problems be to promote better sex education, donations to organizations that provide OB/GYN services to undeveloped countries, and support governments that fight against/don't allow forced marriages, child prostitution, etc.? Not promoting abortion. Abortions don't solve that problem, it simply reacts to a problem in a negative way.

Yes to all of that. But also yes to legal abortions. Abortions can be legal without it being "promoted". I don't really understand what you mean by "promoting abortion", really. Where does that happen?

I don't believe many people think like that either, but many think "Well, we'll have sex and if we get pregnant we'll just get an abortion." Similar to "Well, we'll get married without thinking this through, and if it doesn't work we'll just get divorced." That kind of attitude going into anything is just not good.

The problem is that it's still legal to be stupid. And while I think both of those sentiments are stupid, I don't think we should outlaw neither divorce nor abortion.

PP does not provide any kind of prenatal care, and they are not non-profit as they claim to be, because they don't provide anything free unless you have medicaid. They don't provide pap smears, or mammograms, they refer you somewhere else.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/nassau-county/fees-payment-options-5062.htm

 

[Flannen]

Mr Giles agrees: But its not a choice for man not to pay child support?

I'm not really sure how that relates to anything I said in my post, but I did see it as a point you made.

Incidentally, it's a tricky one. I would personally never force a child on my partner if he didn't want one, even if I fell pregnant. I don't think it would be right to do that so I do see what you're saying about it being compulsory (for want of a better word) for men to pay CSA.

I have several issues with how fathers are treated, which might be why I feel the way I do about forcing a child on them, if they're not ready for it. I have particular issue with paternity leave in comparison to maternity and I think it is awful that a man doesn't have any legal rights to his child if he's not married to his mother.

I'd like to be able to give you a straight answer, and based on what I said in my last post, it would suggest I should say yes, because choice should always be there, but it's tricky and I need to think about it! 🙂 Plus, I think it would deviate away from the topic too much.

 

[Mr Giles]

About paternity leave, If i was a manager of a company, and i was interviewing a man and woman for the same position, id choose man every time.

 

[strawberryeve]

This supposes: that the 30,000 women who died giving birth last year in the United States alone are the only women dying in the world from giving birth. That all women are educated about sex before the age of fertility and therefore know sex leads to pregnancy. It also supposes women always have control over when they have sex and that all marital sex is consensual. It also supposes that abortion is murder. It also supposes that people only have sex to make children.

The truth is if a woman wants an abortion - shes gonna get it whether it's legal or not.

Its funding was cut due to the fact that it is under investigation for fraud, and attempting to aid the prostitution of minors.

PP does not provide any kind of prenatal care, and they are not non-profit as they claim to be, because they don't provide anything free unless you have medicaid. They don't provide pap smears, or mammograms, they refer you somewhere else.

They do STD testing, abortions, and pregnancy tests, which they DO charge for. There are other places out there that do all of this for free (minus abortion), especially pregnancy centers, which do not pressure you into having an abortion to make money.

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------



Actually they are not, but I invite you to prove me wrong. 🙂

I'm wondering why you would agree with me if you think I am wrong, though..

Well, I tried to prove you right but couldn't find any information to support that PP aid in child prostitution, I think that's just slander from the pro-life camp. They are under investigation for fraud in Texas - one PP out of thousands and an investigation means someone accused them of doing something wrong but it hasn't been proved (though I can see a medical practice frauding medicaid it happens all the time I don't think you know enough about the situation to suggest the reason someone may have committed fraud

PP is an international organization and what services they perform and at what price depends not only on the country but the state you live it. SO where you live they may only get enough funding to provide birth control but growing up in NY I used PP as my primary health care and they provided everything from birth control to children's immunizations, annual pelvic exams, prenatal care and testing, sonograms, and all for free (I've never been on Medicaid btw) When I was pregnant they never suggested to me what to do - they understand thats my choice and when I miscarried they took care of me then too. I don't know what I would've done without their support.
That was because NY State subsidizes womens' and childrens' health. I currently live in Nevada and PP is a completely different animal. So, just because your experience or knowledge of PP is negative - doesn't mean they're like that everywhere. The organization believes women have a right to reproductive health. And its a wonderful organization. Its also very large and just like a say police force - just because one cop is bad doesn't mean they all are.
PP global has a much wider reach and does not look like your average US clinic. A clinic in a poor country is still a clinic in a poor country and I don't see any justification why one should be closed because Patty in Iowa thinks Maria in Venezuala should have her 7th child because she asked for it by being married and having sex with her husband. Planned Parenthood gives classes and education on the rhythm method - they cover all aspects of womens' sexual health.
Having lost a child I would rather die than have an abortion but I don't know what its like to be a woman in a country that treats women as second-class citizens. I don't know what its like to live in a culture where a woman's body doesn't belong to her (or maybe I do, lol 😉) You don't know another person's situation, culture, life, concerns etc and how can you? So I don't agree with denying funding to an organization that in most cases is saving lives and helping keep children and mothers alive and healthy. Maybe not in your neighborhood - but in most places.
If for some reason it is revealed that they did commit fraud then shame on them but no absolutely no no no they do not aid in child prostitution - if anything they aid child prostitutes a completely different connotation than aiding IN prostitution.
But I digress 🙂 I think the PP thing is starting to get off topic but feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss it further.

 

[Ianigsy]

The way I look at it is that I believe that the procedure should be available, but it's not something I'd recommend to a friend or family member.

When my mother was born in 1946, she was one of twins, but her twin was apparently born deformed and I suspect- bearing in mind that my grandma would already have had my four-year-old aunt to bring up, and my grandad would still have been in the army at the time- that the deformed twin was allowed to die there and then (it was also a couple of years before we had free healthcare in the UK) because it was felt that there was no way that my grandma could have brought all three up on her own. Doctors certainly used to feel able to make those kinds of decisions.

I also had a friend who had an abortion a few years ago- bear in mind that she was about 33 at the time, and had been adopted herself into a Catholic family- but the father (an ex-boyfriend) was in another relationship by the time my friend knew she was pregnant. It almost certainly wasn't an easy or casual decision- unfortunately we lost touch a couple of years back- but she'll have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of her life, particularly if she hasn't found somebody to settle down and have children with while there's still time.

 

[Little Miss Muffet]

I am 100% pro-life. There are no circumstances in which abortion is acceptable.

2. Although rape is a very unfortunate circumstance, aborting the baby is still not acceptable. It's a hard decision to make, but adoption is always an easier solution than death. It may not be easy on the mother, but nothing is ever easy, and I don't think an innocent child should have to die because it inconveniences someone else.

How is this circumstance not acceptable? This "child" was created by an act of violence. She had no say in the conception of it so she should have a say in wether or not to give birth to it. I know that the alternative option would be adoption but honestly would you want to have to carry a constant reminder of what happened? I certainly would not.

 

[Mr Giles]

Sisterof, illegal? lol, how they gonna prove that?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Sisterof, illegal? lol, how they gonna prove that?

doesn't matter, no one is asking for your opinions on hiring women over men, you wanna talk about that make a new thread.

Otherwise stay on topic.

 

[Hero]

I am for abortions because I feel like women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies. That is why I'll always vote in favor. To personalize it, if my best friend wanted an abortion - she should be able to have one, and it shouldn't be anyone else's decision to take that away from her.

I think anyone saying that a woman should give birth to her rapists baby then give it up for adoption doesn't have a clear understanding on how vicious rape is and the damaging and sometimes life long effects it can have on a woman. It shouldn't be anyone else's decision what a rape victim does with her body after an attack.

My only real problem with abortion is those who use it as a form of birth control. There were several (4 or 5) girls in my high school that used abortions as a form of birth control. By the time we graduated, some of them had had 4 to 5 abortions already...and they were only 17 to 18 years old. I don't think abortions should be in place over just being careful and using condoms.

 

[EvilWillow]

PP is an international organization and what services they perform and at what price depends not only on the country but the state you live it. SO where you live they may only get enough funding to provide birth control but growing up in NY I used PP as my primary health care and they provided everything from birth control to children's immunizations, annual pelvic exams, prenatal care and testing, sonograms, and all for free (I've never been on Medicaid btw) When I was pregnant they never suggested to me what to do - they understand thats my choice and when I miscarried they took care of me then too. I don't know what I would've done without their support.
That was because NY State subsidizes womens' and childrens' health. I currently live in Nevada and PP is a completely different animal. So, just because your experience or knowledge of PP is negative - doesn't mean they're like that everywhere. The organization believes women have a right to reproductive health. And its a wonderful organization. Its also very large and just like a say police force - just because one cop is bad doesn't mean they all are.

That's interesting to know, I will definitely PM, I just wanted to respond on here to give a little perspective as to what I was referring to, and my experience.
There are several videos of hidden cameras going into a PP and a man disguising as a "pimp" to several 13, 14, and 15 year old girls and was seeking help for STD testing. The employees tried to give advice on how to cover up that fact that it was a sex ring, and what they should and shouldn't say on the paperwork, so that PP didn't have to report it by law.

If anyone wants to watch the video, see me, and I will provide links.

I also doesn't matter what the reason is, fraud is fraud. and it's illegal.
I went to PP one day to get a pregnancy test, I already knew I was pregnant, I just needed proof from a Dr. for medicaid.

1. They wanted 20 dollars from me.
2. They told me to leave, because my oldest son was not allowed to come in the building. (I suspect this is because they don't want women who are about to abort to see cute kids and change their minds)
3. They attempted to get me to "take care" of the pregnancy, without me even mentioning it. I told them no, and I was told "We can't do anything for you then."

I called them AGAIN right after I had my second son inquiring about getting a diaphragm. They told me it would be 50 dollars. When I didn't seem to be interested in that, she brought up the BC pill. I told her that I wasn't interested, and I've also heard that PP pills are different and less effective then the others. The woman then said, and I quote,"Well, you can use them, and then if you can pregnant, we can always provide an abortion for you."
I was so disgusted that I hung up on her.

So, no I've never heard of any PP providing child immunizations, because mainly, the one I went to wouldn't allow my son to come in, and I just didn't think they were that big a fan of children 😉

Even if they did provide it, I would give my money to the Health department beofre I would an organization like that.

BTW,l they don't provide mammograms, which is why Susan G Komen pull the funding that it gives for them.


Back on topic, I'm not going to argue semantics anymore. I'm pro-life, nothing anyone says is ever going to convince me otherwise. I'm done posting in this thread, I'm mentally exhausted. Feel free to PM me to discuss it. Please Note: Only do so if you intend to discuss it on a friendly basis. 🙂