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Angel/Angelus/Twilight

Discussion in 'Season 8' started by dcai0830, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    Angel/Angelus/Twilight !!! That's why I don't read the comic. I don't want to see character assassination like that..
     
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  2. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    What decision of Angel's, aside from sleeping with Buffy, has ever impacted Buffy's friends in a bad way? And the comics Twilight nonsense does not count.

    Angel didn't take her memories away, the Oracles did. That's canon because we hear it said on screen. That was one of their terms.

    Again, we don't know if that was part of the deal because we aren't shown how the deal goes down. And a parent wanting to give their child an actual life that they were denied through no fault of their own...a good parent would but parents aren't always rational when it comes to the well being of their children.

    Except nothing in S5 points to that. Their mission was to destroy the Black Thorn and in return he knew W&H would unleash Hell on THEM to kill them. Nothing points to all of L.A. being send to Hell. That's what they decided to do post-show.

    No, it wasn't the next logical path. For starters, Connor was #1 on Angel's love list by that point, not Buffy. So while all this destruction is going on he's all focused on Buffy and no worries about Connor? Please. Also Angel has long ceased to be Buffy focused but of course someone who has never seen AtS (like the writer of this whole nonsense) wouldn't understand that. It also goes against Whedon's own Angel at the end of S5. The Angel that said 'enough playing puppets to higher powers' and 'I would even protect evil people from supernatural threats'. And that Angel (especially after ATF) suddenly becomes a puppet again and wants to bring only the good people into paradise? Wahuh? Only one can be the real Angel but it can't be both. Because then it's just character assassination to get the S8 storyline out.

    I wasn't talking about all of Buffy's character. I said abandonment issues. Which have been part of Buffy's character since her father and which she never sought help for. Are you honestly saying B/S getting together had nothing to with abandonment issues at all? Spike, the guy who she could always count on to be there even when she uses/abuses him but doesn't pay attention to otherwise, says he wants to move on. Buffy overhears him say that and her solution is to jump his bones. I don't care if they are on good terms or have a good relationship, it doesn't IMO change how it happened and why.

    And frankly, I can use whatever excuse I want against B/S. Just like you use every excuse for them. Doesn't make your opinion more valid than mine. Just makes it different. You don't like my opinion then ignore it.
     
  3. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    Yes abandonment issues did play a role. I don't think that was all, but it was part of it. And I wasn't trying to offend you, clearly I misunderstood you, it sounded like you thought Buffy didn't have character development because you said thank goodness Faith did or something like that. And I enjoy your opinions. They make me think. If you didn't say the things you said I would be more close minded and therefore not have as good of an understanding.
     
  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Season 2, Angel made the decision to use Xander as his victim to get close to Spike. Xander certainly didn't volunteer Maybe he would have, but that's irrelevant. Angel made the decision without either asking or warning him of the possible consequences.

    Angel struck the bargain with the Oracles, knowing full well what the consequences would be, and those consequences affected Buffy at least as much as they did him.

    Angel decided to destroy the Circle members, knowing that it would provoke the Senior Partners into sending a retaliatory force. Once there in LA, it's a pretty good guess that they weren't going to just squash Angel and his friends, then spend the day at Disney Land.

    When did Angel ever cease being focused on Buffy? He's been obsessed with her since he first laid eyes on her. Are we supposed to believe that all that midair shagging was just the Slayer forcing herself on an unwilling ex- boyfriend?

    Like it or not, accept it or not, call it character assassination or not, Season 8 is officially canon, which means that that was, indeed, Angel killing all those people and causing all that destruction, and part of the reward that Twilight had offered him for his services was a chance to live happily with Buffy in the new universe.
     
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  5. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    That's a pretty bad example in my opinion.. Absolutely ALL the characters did something like that, I could give you many examples.

    Just like Buffy chose to open the sceal of Danzalthat without being sure if Willow would succeed to do the spell or without being sure of the power of the talisman. She took the risk to unleash an army of Turock-Han on earth.. The lack of risk doesn't exist on this kind of situation.

    I don't know, maybe when I got his own show ! And the word "obsession" is clearly not the right word ^^

    It's your choice if you consider the comics canon like it's my choice to consider them non-canon..
     
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  6. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Yes, because an obsessed person will literally live in another city as their obsession, not contact them etc. for long periods of time... Did you even watch AtS? Would an obsessed person react the way Angel did in Home when he was offered the tool to help the object of his «obsession»? He literally shrugged it off and said Buffy could handle herself.

    And your example is literally part of the Angel @RomanticSoul considers out of character, saying he hadn't been obsessed with Buffy for a long time BEFORE that season 8 stuff. I'm really confused about why you're using it as an example of a scene a person deems out of character to prove a point that it was in character... o_O

    Seriously, the more I read the critics about Angel in IWRY, the more I realize that I should just start ignoring those kinds of posts because it's always the same old arguments that ignore what actually happened and that are clearly meant to criticize Angel because IT'S ANGEL!! Not really surprising too that they're all coming from the same group. I hate generalizing but I've yet to encounter someone who doesn't fit the bill so yep, not going to bother arguing this anymore.
     
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  7. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I'm clearly not the authority on the comics but as I understand it they have never really addressed head on whether it was Angel or Twilight who did the things he did during Season 8, including killing people and Giles.

    And if I am too look at the entire story as a whole, and I have to have Season makes sense with what I know of Angel. Then all signs point to it was Twilight and not Angel. But I suppose we can continue to go in circles on this arguement.
     
  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    That's all you could come up with? Seriously?

    But Angel didn't wipe Buffy's mind which is always YOUR argument. That's utter BS because canon shows us differently. For one we know Angel doesn't have magical powers to wipe memories. And two, we see it on screen that the only person whose memories get messed with, are Angel's. No ones memories were wiped in IWRY, time was turned back so no one ever had those memories. You can't wipe memories that were never there to begin with. And it was part of the solution offered to Angel by the Oracles. He was in a either take it or leave it situation. Or do you think the Oracles are the kind of beings you can argue terms with? I think not.

    And it didn't affect Buffy nearly at all. Nothing changed for Buffy. Buffy was still the same with the same life as before time was turned back. Angel however gave up his humanity for Buffy and the world. That's way bigger than Buffy because Buffy can just go on as before.

    It's not a good guess because it wouldn't fit W&H. One thing has been made clear to us over and over on AtS, W&H want an apocalypse on their time table. A time table that is carefully constructed and planned. So they suddenly lose their heads and send and army to destroy and drag a part of the world into Hell? That's not W&H. What made sense was to send an army that can't be defeated to kill Angel & Co. and then that army goes back to wherever they came from.

    When AtS started, DUH.

    Wrong vampire. You are either talking about Spike or Angelus but not Angel.

    S8 is not officially canon and I will say that for as long as they go on. Whedon can't have it both ways. He can't say they are canon but then negate it and say in case of live project he would toss out the comics canon. And if he's willing to toss it out then so am I.

    Spike fan logic. I mean this is the same person who is one of those Spike fans arguing that the soul in Angel is not Liam's, despite ALL the canon evidence that tells us it is. As Buffy would say, 'it doesn't resemble our Earth logic'.
     
    Antho: Yes yes yes
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  9. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I'll go ahead and say it. Buffy stopped having significant character development after Season 5. Perhaps even after Season 3. By the time we got to Season 7 Joss seemed to give up on Buffy's character development in exchange for developing Spike.

    I'm too lazy to go capture this other quote above but the fact that Twilight/Angel was allowing the world to go to hell and Connor was on that world is yet another reason I know it wasn't Angel. Connor is his first priority.

    Angel is it obsessed with Buffy, he lived her and cared about her but he has his own mission and his own life. Angelus might be obsessed so perhaps Twilight was tapping into Angelus' obsession! More head cannon! These comics require a lot.

    Ohhh this is a theory I'd like to hear! How could it not be Liam? Who's soul would it be?
     
  10. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    It always seemed to me Whedon anted to do the hero's journey with Buffy. But after S3, every time the story got close he blinked. He chickened out in the Finale (see: The Gift), added deus-ex-machina in abundance just so Buffy doesn't even have to win/make it through the test. And then hit the reset button on Buffy's character each new Season. She constantly has to learn the same lessons over and over for years, or totally forgets them to begin with. Not to bring up Faith but she entered the hero's journey at a different point and made it much further than Buffy. But that's probably because Faith is free to be developed unlike Buffy who is always hampered by the damn shipping aspect.

    Only someone who hasn't really watched AtS or doesn't get Angel wouldn't get this simple fact.

    Again, stop being a masochist.:p

    Oh no, you didn't. This always leads us down the rabbit hole of canon vs fanon. You can't have this discussion because you have people who treat their own fanon as actual canon and defend it as such. Then there are the people who argue the actual canon. It doesn't work, we've tried plenty of times before. This fanon is as bad as 'Angel wanted to be turned and asked for it' nonsense that people take away from the 'Becoming' flashback.
     
  11. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I haven`t read the comics and I don`t think I everv will (though I do enjoy @Priceless beautiful avatars from the comics...).

    What I hear from the comics, often sounds strange to me. I can not understand this whole twilight thing at all, then there are bugs commanding a space ship, souls being passed on like a hookah and people dying and being resurrected as if it is nothing - that does not really make sense for me. Therefore I am wondering, if your are looking for an answer that might just not be there. Maybe there is not enough sense in that particular (twilight) story line, to tell us, wether we see Liam or Angel or Angelus or Twilight or Father Christmas.

    To me the Buffyverse is not as consistent and elaborate as other verses, for example Tolkiens Middle-Earth. That doesn`t bother me at all. I can still enjoy the show because I think the writers put emphasis on other aspects and I appreciate that. Like on Buffy`s character development in S6 and S7 for example ;)

    Flow
     
    Priceless: Aww thanks :-)
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  12. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    LOL - True. I want so much for it to make sense together. I'm desperately trying to make it all come together and work within the full story.

    I see what you did there! :p
     
  13. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    The comics are canon until Joss says they aren't. Could he change his mind in the future? Sure. Has he de-canonised them yet? Nope he hasn't. Until he actually does, what he says is canon remains so and potential maybes of what else he could do are irrelevant unless they actually happen. The canon comic continuation is still currently what he is actively choosing to do with the verse. I know there are fans that don't enjoy them or have never read them and have their personal canon finish with the tv shows. Of course anyone can choose to do that for themselves, it's a personal choice, but that doesn't change the fact Joss is currently still choosing for them to be the canon continuation.

    The soul passing thing isn't one of the canon comics @flow. I think it is generally considered quasi-canon because Joss let Lynch use Willow in exchange for introducing the bug ship in that story, but he didn't oversee the whole story and he didn't put his name to it. The soul swapping thing makes no sense to canon before or after it, so is just best ignored imo.

    @dcai0830 you have read the comics far more recently than me but I'd say Angel was fooled into going along with the Twilight plan from what I remember. There was some hubris involved in believing he should/could be destined to save the world, that he could be right to make choices that would affect many other people, but he was manipulated into believing it was a greater good situation, that the world would be like hell LA if he didn't commit to saving it/Buffy or some such. I think there were points where warning bells should have been sounding for him, but whether there was personal weakness involved in wanting to be chosen like that or not, I think he genuinely believed what he was doing was for the best overall. That's as I remember it anyway, but it has been a long time since I read S8. I don't think Angel would have the same perfect happiness moment with Buffy any longer personally, just from knowing that happened before, but that and the strange behaviours I think can be pushed aside here by the fact that he was being influenced and/or possessed I think.

    I haven't read through the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating anything here. In a Q&A for issue 5 of S9 Scott Allie said "Angel was manipulated into taking point on a very bad plan that he never fully understood because he never bothered to understand it, too wrapped up in the idea of doing an ultimate good deed." Gage in the #20 Q&A when asked about Angel's love for Buffy against his S8 actions said, "One of Angel’s biggest failings – possibly the biggest – is that he so badly wants to believe he can be a big, world-saving hero and “fix everything” that he does really stupid and often harmful things in the pursuit of that. Angel was approached by Whistler and told that the only way to keep Buffy from dying was to become Twilight and do these things. Angel believed him, partly because Whistler is the one who pulled him out of the gutter and gave him a purpose (and Buffy), because Whistler’s been right before, and also because what Whistler was saying appealed to this flawed part of Angel’s personality. He should have asked more questions; he should have explored other options; there are a lot of things he should have done but didn’t. But I think he genuinely did believe he was doing the only thing that would save Buffy’s life (per Whistler) and the world, much in the same way he believed in Angel Season 5 that he could ultimately do some good running an evil law firm, when really he primarily managed to get several of his best friends killed. There’s also an open question as to how much Angel was being influenced by Twilight as we went along in Season 8; I don’t think even he knows the answer. Does all of that make what he did okay? No. But I do think it squares with Angel loving Buffy; in his mind, he was trying to save her." Angel was supposed to be possessed fully at times, influenced heavily at others and sometimes just judging badly that what he was doing was the right call. Angel thought that the 'good' people would be saved in the new universe too, so that would include Connor, he hadn't abandoned him at all.

    Angel was clearly somewhat taken aback at how it was all playing out at the end of the season and still was trying to tell himself (and Buffy) that they could fix it all. Angel feels culpable for the disaster that was Twilight not because he did it all and was in control throughout but because when he wasn't possessed he was going along with it. He got it wrong he should have asked more questions, he made a bad call, but not to be evil. When asked in a Q&A around issue 15 if Angel was being whitewashed Christos Gage said, "To me, when he was Twilight, a lot of the time it was less like being mind controlled (though I think there were moments where the Twilight force was dominant) than kind of like being high or intoxicated. He may not have been thinking clearly, but he does need to own the fact that he made the initial choice to put himself into that state, like a drunk driver who kills someone. If people feel he should be 100% responsible for everything, really enjoyed the killing of Slayers, was going to leave Connor and his whole world to burn, well, that's a story where Angel is the Big Bad, and that's not the story we're telling or was ever being told." Angel tried to make up for it in S9, although it was somewhat falling to the same mistake in the grand gesture aspect of looking to bring Giles back, but I think he saw that by the season end and again his intention was good, he wanted to correct at least one thing.

    Angel is one of my favourite characters so it matters to me to see the logic in the characterisation and canon flow for him. But one of the reasons I find him so interesting is because he isn't just a perfect hero but is complex and flawed. I can understand why some readers didn't like it or find the uncertainty over the influence/possession frustrating. But I don't think the flaws Angel showed in S8 to get into this situation are wildly out of character though and once he was in it he wasn't always in control and was wanting it to have been the right choice when he was. I've come to find an acceptance and through line for the character by seeing his intentions as genuine and his desire for redemption clouding his judgment at points. That Whistler was involved in convincing him too I think was significant because there was some inbuilt trust there that was abused.
     
    Fool for Buffy: Yes! Great post. The comics still say executive producer: Joss Whedon. So everything is canon.
    Priceless: Great post. Twilight Angel encapsulates exactly who Angel is.
    TriBel: Now that's impressive! :-)
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  14. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    On this we can agree.
     
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  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    They are very comic book-y. You could never do most of these stories in a TV medium because they are so comic book typical. Hence, weird.

    To make it simple. Plenty of shows and movies have also comic books attached to them. From prequels to sidequels to straight up continuation. However they are also always clear on what is canon or not. For example with Farscape, the creators have always said that any continuation would either be what happened in the comics or it would take place after. But if it takes place after, expect comic characters to show up and everything that happened in the comics counts into whatever live continuation there is.

    Whedon, as usual, tried to have it both ways and there wasn't even any need for it. He's said the comics are canon but also said he would disregard comics canon for any live project. Boom. He's trying to leave himself an open door that we all know is totally unnecessary. We and Whedon know there won't be another live project, at least not with the the old line up. So why even say that in the first place? It just gives people like me the perfect excuse to disregard the comics as canon. And for what? If Whedon is willing to throw away comics canon for even a non-existing (and which will never exist) live project then I don't see why I have should see the comics as anything other than throw aways too.
     
  16. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Whilst I understand what you are saying nothing changes that his actions reflect his actual ongoing choice to endorse them, to be involved in them and not to discontinue them. Now I don't know the context or exact quote that he gave about the possibility of abandoning the comic continuation in the future, but, for example, it may have been an answer that was very much led by the questions being asked or the interview context. And even if it wasn't, Whedon's choice for the last 10 years has been to continue with the comics and to state that they are canon. If he put no weight in them and didn't see them as the continuing exploration of the characters/verse he created then he wouldn't spend time at the writers' summits plotting the seasons and/or he'd take his name and endorsement off them. He just isn't choosing to do that, quite the opposite. Ignoring them regardless of his choice to endorse them as canon is of course completely up to you. There are certainly plenty of fans that don't credit them or read them, but you can't change the fact that Whedon states they are canon just because he may have said that they could be overwritten. Equally, if a live project came up again they might go post the canon comics (they'd have to if they were using the original cast tbh as they are all older than they are in the comics), or they could take it on a tangent such as Fray. I don't think the live project will ever happen either, but season 12 is a distinct likelihood.
     
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  17. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I don't care how canon Joss says they are. They're simply incompatible with the show, and to accept the comics then I have to reject too much in the show.
     
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  18. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    The Warren thing was a mistake Joss openly admitted and they accounted for in a weak ass explanation retconning the show canon, but explaining it none-the-less. Otherwise, what is incompatible? Amy's power? Such things are always subject to plot needs. You can argue that saving Warren and maintaining his life off screen, whilst also creating the whole illusions with Willow was too draining for Amy to do 'more' in S7.

    I do often hear fans talk about things that don't work for them in the show or in the comics that really means that events don't work with their previous assumptions and their original reading of a situation/character. Often looking for the through line and being willing to adjust your perspectives on what has been before fixes incompatibilities. As has been said, the show doesn't try to pretend to be something it isn't with flawless world building. I'm not saying this is true for you or trying to take a 'high' ground. The present situation in question is a fine example of one where I became unstuck and I had to reconsider my perception of the character and think again on his motivations and point of view that could explain and give coherency to a plot. Personally I look to the intention in the writing and choose to follow what is given as canon. If unstuck I choose to look to what is it that they are trying to show, what the writers intentions were and where they were trying to take the character and I look to understand and 'see' that. I find that this better informs my understanding when/if I have struggled to comprehend the whys of character's choices and it means that I can see logic and sense in what follows and continue to appreciate it as a whole, even if I do have to reconsider my previous assumptions. But many hold to the principle that the author is dead and, from my perspective, that is completely your choice of course, but it may well result in there being a ceiling to which you can enjoy the ongoing story. Eventually too much could become incomprehensible to your chosen pov and your take on the characters that it just doesn't work. Either reexamining your interpretation or accepting the cut off point seems the most obvious outcome in that situation. It really is just individual how we go about appreciating and interpreting these things.
     
  19. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    I don't read the comics and you're probably right in what you are saying but I have the impression that's totally out of character or at least not my vision of Angel. I honestly don't see him doing theses things he apparently did. For me it's really a character assassination. I dunno but in the last seasons of Angel, he showed a different personality than what is show in that season 8 of Buffy. Also, why is he always the "victim", the character who makes terrible mystake ? He is already hated by a lot of fans and plus Whedon give more reason to not like him.
    There is not another character who could play this role ?
     
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  20. Evil Seal

    Evil Seal I'm sorry, I was myth-taken.

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    I just finished rewatching s05 of AtS and I honestly can't figure out how Angel could have been Twilight while running W&H. Are the events of s08 happening after s05 of AtS ? But we know from The Girl In Question that at least some of the events happen at the same time. And I haven't read After The Fall but I assume it takes place right after Not Fade Away. So how is Angel everywhere at once ?
    Otherwise, I like the comics, mainly because I always want more of the Buffyverse